Is veneration of saints Biblical?
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Is this veneration or worship?
It would all depend on their actual prayers. Do you know what their prayers consist of? When you are cheering your favorite sports team and doing the 'wave' are you honoring or worshiping them.
Note that they are not praying to a statue, the statue only helps them focus on who they are praying to. If you pull out a picture of your wife/mom/child and kiss it, I don't assume that you love Kodak paper, instead I assume that you keep their images to remind you of them.
So, what were they praying, prayers of honor or worship. I don't think you have a clue as to what their prayers were..
Exodus 20:3-5Is this veneration or worship?
Thou shalt have no other gods before me.
4Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth: 5Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them:
Luke 4:8
And Jesus answered him, “It is written, “‘You shall worship the Lord your God, and Him only shall you serve.’”
Im trying to be more like you. “I’m right, and you’re wrong”.
Im trying to be more like you. “I’m right, and you’re wrong”.
I know, you're saying I'm a hater. You've been saying it in so many words for a long time. Well, get in line. When a person is out of convincing arguments the personal attacks always come like clockwork.
BTW, what is it that I'm always right about that you find so awful? Did I say something about you or some cherished belief you have that got your ire up?
I think the root cause of the disagreement here is that some Christians believe what the Sadducees believed - that those in Paradise/Heaven were "dead". The Sadducees also accepted only the first five books of the Torah, the Pentateuch, and so Jesus Christ Our Lord quoted from it to refute them: "37But in the account of the burning bush, even Moses showed that the dead rise, for he calls the Lord ‘the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.’ b 38He is not the God of the dead, but of the living, for to him all are alive.”
39Some of the teachers of the law responded, “Well said, teacher!” 40And no one dared to ask him any more questions." (Luk 20)
[Also consult Acts 23:8 "(The Sadducees say that there is no resurrection, and that there are neither angels nor spirits, but the Pharisees believe all these things.)"]
The Lord is teaching that Abraham, Isaac, and Jacoc were ALIVE in the time of Moses, which means they were Alive in Paradise. Not dead,
He teaches Himself even more clearly when giving the example of the Rich Man and Lazarus: "24So he called to him, ‘Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire ...
27“He answered, ‘Then I beg you, father, send Lazarus to my family, 28for I have five brothers. Let him warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.’ 29“Abraham replied, ‘They have Moses and the Prophets; let them listen to them.’" (Luk 16).
Again, Abraham is alive, not dead, and the Rich Man addressed requests to him, and Abraham answered. All of which shows him alive.
But the clearest passage of all imho is post-Resurrection, when Jesus had carried the OT Just to Heaven, to see the Face of the Father, after His Ascension: "Now when He had taken the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each having a harp, and golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints." (Rev 5:8)
Observe: The Presbyters/Elders and Saints are alive in Heaven and offering prayers to God. We see the Angels do the same later on in the same book of St. John the Apostle's Revelation/Apocalypse. More on that later if needed. God Bless.
39Some of the teachers of the law responded, “Well said, teacher!” 40And no one dared to ask him any more questions." (Luk 20)
[Also consult Acts 23:8 "(The Sadducees say that there is no resurrection, and that there are neither angels nor spirits, but the Pharisees believe all these things.)"]
The Lord is teaching that Abraham, Isaac, and Jacoc were ALIVE in the time of Moses, which means they were Alive in Paradise. Not dead,
He teaches Himself even more clearly when giving the example of the Rich Man and Lazarus: "24So he called to him, ‘Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire ...
27“He answered, ‘Then I beg you, father, send Lazarus to my family, 28for I have five brothers. Let him warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.’ 29“Abraham replied, ‘They have Moses and the Prophets; let them listen to them.’" (Luk 16).
Again, Abraham is alive, not dead, and the Rich Man addressed requests to him, and Abraham answered. All of which shows him alive.
But the clearest passage of all imho is post-Resurrection, when Jesus had carried the OT Just to Heaven, to see the Face of the Father, after His Ascension: "Now when He had taken the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each having a harp, and golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints." (Rev 5:8)
Observe: The Presbyters/Elders and Saints are alive in Heaven and offering prayers to God. We see the Angels do the same later on in the same book of St. John the Apostle's Revelation/Apocalypse. More on that later if needed. God Bless.
No, there is disagreement because some think Catholic traditions have priority over the Bible; and others, like myself, don't.
It's very simple, just show me the New Testament scriptures that show that canonization and "veneration of saints" was taught and practiced by anyone in the NT church.
I am not 100 per cent sure...But did the Catholic church not divide this commandment so they have 11 ?
I know that they worked around this , hence all the idolatry...
Hi RA.
I and others have already shown many verses above. For e.g. CS1 quoted 1 Samuel 2:30: “Therefore the LORD, the God of Israel, declares ... Those who honor me I will honor, but those who despise me will be disdained." Those who honor God are the Saints. Here, God Himself declares that He will honor them. If God Himself honors His Saints, is it too much for us to do the same? I don't think so.
The Lord honors the Baptist for his faithful service: "He was a burning and a shining light: and ye were willing for a season to rejoice in his light." (John 5:35)
There are several examples where God honors those who were distinguished in His service, like He honored Samuel and John the Baptist.
I and others have already shown many verses above. For e.g. CS1 quoted 1 Samuel 2:30: “Therefore the LORD, the God of Israel, declares ... Those who honor me I will honor, but those who despise me will be disdained." Those who honor God are the Saints. Here, God Himself declares that He will honor them. If God Himself honors His Saints, is it too much for us to do the same? I don't think so.
The Lord honors the Baptist for his faithful service: "He was a burning and a shining light: and ye were willing for a season to rejoice in his light." (John 5:35)
There are several examples where God honors those who were distinguished in His service, like He honored Samuel and John the Baptist.
Adoration/Glory/Worship, these are equivalent terms and used for God alone.
Honor/Reverence/Veneration, these are terms used to show respect for the Saints.
I've seen Protestants speak of "Reverend Pastor", and no says he is worshipping the Pastor.
In earlier times, it was common to speak of "his venerable majestly" for king james etc.
Veneration is specifically explained in the Second Council of Nicaea as NOT being Worship.
Honor/Reverence/Veneration, these are terms used to show respect for the Saints.
I've seen Protestants speak of "Reverend Pastor", and no says he is worshipping the Pastor.
In earlier times, it was common to speak of "his venerable majestly" for king james etc.
Veneration is specifically explained in the Second Council of Nicaea as NOT being Worship.
There's absolutely nothing in these verses that could be considered justification for the practice of canonization and veneration of saints.
In fact there are no such verses because the practice is a Catholic tradition from start to finish.
Let me ask you, what does this picture look like to you, veneration or worship?
There have been Saints in all ages, distinguished men and women from all classes, with heroic faith in the Lord, who have done great things for His Glory, from the Biblical Patriarchs, Prophets and Apostles, to those like St. Patrick, St. Francis Xavier, St. Padre Pio etc. Anyone who has read the life story of these men knows they won millions of souls to Christ and to Holy Baptism. Among Non-Catholic Christian Evangelists that I respect are Billy Graham and Reinhard Bonnke. Both had a heart for winning many to Christ and did so. They were also Ecumenical Christians and worked together in Inter-Denomination Co-operation with the purpose of saving the lost for Christ.
With regard to Church Canonization, it is a Petrine Privilege granted by the Lord Himself: "I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven." (Mat 16:19)
When Saint Peter's Successor the Pope binds on Earth that someone is a Saint, the same is bound in Heaven per this passage.
With regard to Church Canonization, it is a Petrine Privilege granted by the Lord Himself: "I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven." (Mat 16:19)
When Saint Peter's Successor the Pope binds on Earth that someone is a Saint, the same is bound in Heaven per this passage.
The so-called Petrine privilege is just more Catholic dogma. It has no justification at all in scripture. In Matthew 18:18 Jesus says the same thing to all the disciples. Mathew 18:1 says: "At that time the disciples came to Jesus, saying, 'Who then is greatest in the kingdom of heaven?'"
Why didn't He say: Hey, I already told you before, Peter is the man. No, He doesn't say that.
In v. 18 He says to them all:
"Assuredly, I say to you, whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven."
I hate to break it to ya but Christ is the foundation upon which His church is built, not Peter.
I know, you're saying I'm a hater. You've been saying it in so many words for a long time. Well, get in line. When a person is out of convincing arguments the personal attacks always come like clockwork.
BTW, what is it that I'm always right about that you find so awful? Did I say something about you or some cherished belief you have that got your ire up?
Where do I begin here my friend.
First of all, if you read my posts again I was trying to say that I like you and I put “hate“ in quotes because I don’t think you’re very extreme in your views.
Secondly these types of discussions are usually funny to me because they‘re not very fruitful. As I mentioned earlier in this thread, I don’t personally Judge who’s right or who’s wrong because that‘s not up to me, that’s up to God. I like to believe that everybody is right because we can’t all be wrong. Everybody is trying in their faith and the common denominator that unifies us all is Jesus Christ. Despite these disagreements that have been going on for centuries, I think still everybody is trying and reaching out to Christ. So I don’t put a value or Right or Wrong in interpretations. I think everybody is right.
Third, many people here including myself in other threads, have provided examples from the Bible supporting one view or another, but you don’t like it. This touches upon another subject which I’ve mentioned on several topics here. How you view the Bible, as 100% word of God that fell from the sky or inspired by Holy Spirit and written by men? This has also been explained several times here by @arthurfleminger but you don’t seem to like it either.
‘So this comes down to “I’m right and you’re wrong “ and “I’m putting my foot down because I don’t want to hear you and have a conversation with you”.
‘What options do we have here? Well we could say that if you bring a verse supporting your position then I can also provide a verse that supports my position. What does this mean? I’d like to think of this as everybody being right - as I mentioned before.
‘Or you can say that maybe we shouldn’t pick a verse out of the Bible and build a church around it but take a whole chapter as a whole or the whole book as a whole to support your views. I’ve mentioned this elsewhere too. If you take this view, I think that everybody is right still, because the unifying figure is always Jesus Christ.
So, something to think about and NO I don’t think you’re hateful
. You don’t ”hate” monks so that’s definitely not that extreme 
If you take this view, I think that everybody is right still, because the unifying figure is always Jesus Christ.
No, Jesus alone isn't the unifying factor. The true Jesus is the unifying factor; but if the Jesus you believe in is a false Jesus there can be no unity.
The true Jesus never authorized the veneration of saints, the Catholic Catechism, the popes, or the "Mother Church."
You don’t ”hate” monks so that’s definitely not that extreme
Again with the monks. I never knew what you were talking about to start with and I still don't; and I care even less. But by saying I "don't hate monks" you're pulling it out of thin air. I never said that, you simply made it up.
I do like that show Monk however, he's a riot.
Again with the monks. I never knew what you were talking about to start with and I still don't; and I care even less. But by saying I "don't hate monks" you're pulling it out of thin air. I never said that, you simply made it up.
I do like that show Monk however, he's a riot.
Hey, how are you doing today?