the child in rev 12 is not Jesus for several reasons, first it does not refer to the child as Christ or the lamb as in most references to christ in revelation. it does say he will rule with an irons sceptre but it says the same thing about he who overcomes in chapter 2, so this verse does not necessarily make it Jesus. 2 it speaks of things happening to this child which did not take place in the gospel, that he is saved by the angel of the Lord and taken to heaven to Gods throne, which is something the did not happen to Jesus at birth, Jesus was just taken to egypt by Joseph for his safety. 3 it gives a time in that the devil destroys a third of the stars in the heavens which corresponds with other prophesies of stars falling. So who is this child then, well its obvious he is a new king to come who will serve Jesus and deal with the beast.
it cant be him
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I am inclined to believe it refers to the "24 elders" (representing "the Church which is His body") who will have been caught up to Heaven BEFORE the opening of the FIRST SEAL (which is opened at the START of the 7-yr trib):
Revelation 12:13 -
"And when the dragon saw that he had been thrown down to the earth [I believe that occurs MID-trib, with 1260 days remaining], he persecuted the woman who had brought forth the male [*G730 - arsena / arrén]." ["had brought forth," meaning, well-before this point in the chronology]
[since "the woman" represents a corporate entity, in my view, I believe it is not far-fetched to also see "the male [G730 - arsena / arrén]" as corporate, as well... i.e. "His body"]
*"Arsen (ar'-sane) probably from airo [G142]; male (as stronger for lifting) -- male, man. "
Revelation 12:13 -
"And when the dragon saw that he had been thrown down to the earth [I believe that occurs MID-trib, with 1260 days remaining], he persecuted the woman who had brought forth the male [*G730 - arsena / arrén]." ["had brought forth," meaning, well-before this point in the chronology]
[since "the woman" represents a corporate entity, in my view, I believe it is not far-fetched to also see "the male [G730 - arsena / arrén]" as corporate, as well... i.e. "His body"]
*"Arsen (ar'-sane) probably from airo [G142]; male (as stronger for lifting) -- male, man. "
^ EDIT: *"Arsen (ar'-sane) probably from airo [G142]; male (as stronger for lifting) -- male, man. "
G142 - airo - https://biblehub.com/greek/142.htm " I raise, lift up, take away, remove."
EDIT to add (again): I'd put this post up a few days ago (on this subject):
https://christianchat.com/threads/twinkling-of-an-eye.184441/post-3930831
G142 - airo - https://biblehub.com/greek/142.htm " I raise, lift up, take away, remove."
EDIT to add (again): I'd put this post up a few days ago (on this subject):
https://christianchat.com/threads/twinkling-of-an-eye.184441/post-3930831
does it say that in the text?, no it does not, it merely states a woman of some glory gives birth to a son, what u say they represent is not written or mention in the bookI am inclined to believe it refers to the "24 elders" (representing "the Church which is His body") who will have been caught up to Heaven BEFORE the opening of the FIRST SEAL (which is opened at the START of the 7-yr trib):
Revelation 12:13 -
"And when the dragon saw that he had been thrown down to the earth [I believe that occurs MID-trib, with 1260 days remaining], he persecuted the woman who had brought forth the male [*G730 - arsena / arrén]." ["had brought forth," meaning, well-before this point in the chronology]
[since "the woman" represents a corporate entity, in my view, I believe it is not far-fetched to also see "the male [G730 - arsena / arrén]" as corporate, as well... i.e. "His body"]
*"Arsen (ar'-sane) probably from airo [G142]; male (as stronger for lifting) -- male, man. "
does it say that in the text?, no it does not, it merely states a woman of some glory gives birth to a son, what u say they represent is not written or mention in the book
I didn't even say in that post the "identity" of "the woman" (just that I believe "the woman" [who "FLEES" by the way] is a "corporate" entity... because, of "the woman" it says, "FLED to the wilderness"/"FLY into the wilderness" [1260d]... which verses I believe correlate with Matthew 24:16 "Then let them which be in Judaea FLEE into the mountains" [at the time they "SEE" the Matt24:15 thing])… and that verse 13 says, "which/who HAD BROUGHT FORTH the male [G730]" (meaning, before the point in time that Satan/the dragon is "cast unto the earth," and "the woman" FLEES [w/1260d remaining]).
Anyway, I see that only one entity here is "caught UP/AWAY [G726 - hērpasthē ]" (not "the woman" and not "the remnant [plural] of her seed"), that is, only "the male [G730]"... (and what I've put in past posts regarding "the Church which is His body" to whom was addressed the Romans 16:20 "...shall bruise Satan UNDER YOUR feet IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]" [ONE "purpose" of our Rapture--see also 1Cor6:3(14)-"we SHALL JUDGE ANGELS"] [the "IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]" time period being the 7-yr-trib/70th-Wk, Rev1:1/4:1/1:19c "FUTURE" aspects of the Book (same time frame as Lk18:8[chpt-17-end] "avenge IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]" which is the earthly-located aspect)]); etc...
I didn't even say in that post the "identity" of "the woman" (just that I believe "the woman" [who "FLEES" by the way] is a "corporate" entity... because, of "the woman" it says, "FLED to the wilderness"/"FLY into the wilderness" [1260d]... which verses I believe correlate with Matthew 24:16 "Then let them which be in Judaea FLEE into the mountains" [at the time they "SEE" the Matt24:15 thing])… and that verse 13 says, "which/who HAD BROUGHT FORTH the male [G730]" (meaning, before the point in time that Satan/the dragon is "cast unto the earth," and "the woman" FLEES [w/1260d remaining]).
Anyway, I see that only one entity here is "caught UP/AWAY [G" (not "the woman" and not "the remnant [plural] of her seed"), that is, only "the male [G730]"... (and what I've put in past posts regarding "the Church which is His body" to whom was addressed the Romans 16:20 "...shall bruise Satan UNDER YOUR feet IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]" [ONE "purpose" of our Rapture--see also 1Cor6:3(14)-"we SHALL JUDGE ANGELS"] [the "IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]" time period being the 7-yr-trib/70th-Wk, Rev1:1/4:1/1:19c "FUTURE" aspects of the Book (same time frame as Lk18:8[chpt-17-end] "avenge IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]" which is the earthly-located aspect)]); etc...
can u clarify what u think the male child represents, because in the verse it doesn't say he is anything but a child who will rule, and also why u think he represents more then what is stated
[got logged out while trying to post the following]
^ EDIT to add:
Strong's Exhaustive Concordance -
[G726 - hērpasthē ]
catch, seize, take by force.
From a derivative of haireomai [*G138]; to seize (in various applications) -- catch (away, up), pluck, pull, take (by force).
*G138 - haireomai / heilato / haireó -
...as found in 2 Thessalonians 2:13 [to/for/about "the Church which is His body"]- "But we should always give thanks to God for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God has chosen [**G138 - heilato / haireó ] you from the beginning [some versions say "has chosen you firstfruit"] for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth."
-- ** "probably from airo G142" (definition provided in previous post)
^ EDIT to add:
Strong's Exhaustive Concordance -
[G726 - hērpasthē ]
catch, seize, take by force.
From a derivative of haireomai [*G138]; to seize (in various applications) -- catch (away, up), pluck, pull, take (by force).
*G138 - haireomai / heilato / haireó -
...as found in 2 Thessalonians 2:13 [to/for/about "the Church which is His body"]- "But we should always give thanks to God for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God has chosen [**G138 - heilato / haireó ] you from the beginning [some versions say "has chosen you firstfruit"] for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth."
-- ** "probably from airo G142" (definition provided in previous post)
so? whats this got to do with rev 12? i get it u think the child is the church, but where does it actually say that and in what context of scripture does that come from?[got logged out while trying to post the following]
^ EDIT to add:
Strong's Exhaustive Concordance -
[G726 - hērpasthē ]
catch, seize, take by force.
From a derivative of haireomai [*G138]; to seize (in various applications) -- catch (away, up), pluck, pull, take (by force).
*G138 - haireomai / heilato / haireó
...as found in 2 Thessalonians 2:13 [to/for/about "the Church which is His body"]- "But we should always give thanks to God for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God has chosen [**G138 - heilato / haireó ] you from the beginning [some versions say "has chosen you firstfruit"] for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth."
-- ** "probably from airo G142" (definition provided in previous post)
can u clarify what u think the male child represents, because in the verse it doesn't say he is anything but a child who will rule, and also why u think he represents more then what is stated
I think I had said in Post #2 of this thread that I believe [v.13's] "the male [G730 - arsena / arrén ]" is likely the "24 elders"/"the Church which is His body" (seen IN HEAVEN before the opening of the FIRST SEAL, which is at the START of the 7-yrs/70th-Wk).
And I'd said that, since I believe "the woman" is a corporate entity, that I do not believe it to be far-fetched to also believe "the male [G730]" [she "HAD BROUGHT FORTH"] is as well.
She's not an individual person [singular]
I think I had said in Post #2 of this thread that I believe [v.13's] "the male [G730 - arsena / arrén ]" is likely the "24 elders"/"the Church which is His body" (seen IN HEAVEN before the opening of the FIRST SEAL, which is at the START of the 7-yrs/70th-Wk)
yes but why? in what context of scripture do u believe that one thing represents something else? where does your doctrine and understanding come from, what is the basis of your belief?