James 4:5?

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EJS1023

Junior Member
Aug 31, 2017
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Do ye think that the Scripture saith in vain, The spirit that dwellers in us lusteth to envy?
James 4:5.

So I have 2 question, would appreciate any input.

1) Is this passage speaking of the Holy Spirit?
2) Anyone have any idea what passage James is referring too?
 
EJS1023 said:
Do ye think that the Scripture saith in vain, The spirit that dwellers in us lusteth to envy?
James 4:5.

So I have 2 question, would appreciate any input.

1) Is this passage speaking of the Holy Spirit?
2) Anyone have any idea what passage James is referring too?
Click to expand...

Verse 5 is a very difficult verse because its meaning is not clearly defined,
- It is unclear whether the word 'spirit' refers to the Holy Spirit or to the spirit of man.
- Thus, it is unclear whether it is the Holy Spirit who yearns or whether it is man's spirit that yearns.
- In turn, it is unclear what the object of this yearning with envy is. Is it God yearning for the Holy Spirit in us (which would make little or no sense) or is he yearning for our spirit; or is it our spirit that yearns for evil passions?

a. If this a quote from some O.T source and the 'spirit' here is the Holy Spirit, here is the problem.
The idea of the Holy Spirit dwelling within man is a familiar one we see throughout the New Testament but one that is generally foreign to the Old Testament. It is quite possible that this is not intended to be a quote at all but is merely a representation of a New Covenant principle of the Holy Spirit dwelling within the Christian. What this means is that if this is supposed to be a quote from some lost O.T text regarding the Holy Spirit, it would be inconsistent with how the rest of the O.T portrays the Holy Spirit in relation to man.
b. If the 'spirit' is the spirit of man, here are the implications.

* “Or do you think that the Scripture speaks to no purpose: "He jealously desires the Spirit which He has made to dwell in us?”
The spirit of man yearns with envy for that which is evil. This too is a fact revealed in scripture. In Mark 7:21-23 Jesus tells us that, “For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed the evil thoughts, fornications, thefts, murders, adulteries, deeds of coveting and wickedness, as well as deceit, sensuality, envy, slander, pride and foolishness. All these evil things proceed from within and defile the man.” This is a point that has already been well established by James. The end result of giving ourselves over to these pleasures and envies makes God our enemy for “God opposes the proud but gives grace to the humble.” James quotes this, as does Peter, from Proverbs 3:34, “Though He scoffs at the scoffers, yet he gives grace to the afflicted.” Both James and Peter render the verse in the same way, “God is opposed to the proud, but gives grace to the humble,” 1Peter 5:5.
* The Jealousy of God for his people is also a truth found repeatedly throughout the Old Testament and does indeed agree with the context of what James is saying in verses 1-4. We see this echoed in such passages as:

< Exodus 20:5, “You shall not worship them or serve them; for I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God.”
< Exodus 34:14, “For you shall not worship any other god, for the LORD, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God.”
< Deuteronomy 6:15, “For the Lord your God in the midst of you is a jealous God; otherwise the anger of the Lord your God will be kindled against you, and He will wipe you off the face of the earth.”
< Deuteronomy 32:21 “They have made Me jealous with what is not God; They have provoked Me to anger with their idols.”

So, the source of the statement that James makes does not seem to be a quote from any specific Old Testament text but is representative of a revealed attitude of God, and I think Deuteronomy 32:21 seems to mirror the context of James 4:1-4. These readers had committed themselves to idolatry and accordingly, James accused them of adultery. They had replaced their desire for God with lusting after things of the world and God yearns after our spirit with envy. In short, they have made God jealous.

I think no matter which of these two views one may prefer, a case can be made for both with equal intensity and both seem to bear the weight of revealed truth. Which view is actually intended by the text, we may never know.
 
EJS1023 said:
Do ye think that the Scripture saith in vain, The spirit that dwellers in us lusteth to envy?
James 4:5.

So I have 2 question, would appreciate any input.

1) Is this passage speaking of the Holy Spirit?
2) Anyone have any idea what passage James is referring too?
Click to expand...

1) yes no other spirit indwells believers

2) the KJV frequently uses lusteth for any strong desire. When the Holy Spirit speaks to us He wants our full attention.

Our God is a Jealous God (Ex 20:5)
 
MarcR said:
1) yes no other spirit indwells believers

2) the KJV frequently uses lusteth for any strong desire. When the Holy Spirit speaks to us He wants our full attention.

Our God is a Jealous God (Ex 20:5)
Click to expand...

AMEN...many see the word lust and think it is bad, not realizing the application of the word in Old English and or failing to see the context the word is used in......
 
dcontroversal said:
AMEN...many see the word lust and think it is bad, not realizing the application of the word in Old English and or failing to see the context the word is used in......
Click to expand...

I like the nkjv

[SUP]5 [/SUP]Or do you think that the Scripture says in vain, “The Spirit who dwells in us yearns jealously”?
 
EJS1023 said:
Do ye think that the Scripture saith in vain, The spirit that dwellers in us lusteth to envy?
James 4:5.

So I have 2 question, would appreciate any input.

1) Is this passage speaking of the Holy Spirit?
2) Anyone have any idea what passage James is referring too?
Click to expand...

"Do ye think that the scripture saith in vain, The spirit that dwelleth in us lusteth to envy?"

A better description could be that James asks a rhetorical question that define opposites.

In our lingo, we would probably hear it this way...'Or do you think that the Scripture has vainly said....'

Reading the previous verse gives better understanding to verse 5.

"Ye adulterers and adulteresses, know ye not that the friendship of the world is enmity with God? whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is the enemy of God."

Then we can understand much easier by reading thins in context, knowing that James is exposing the worldly pagan practices of the fertility goddess "Astaroth."

"You adulteresses, do you not know that friendship with the world is hostility toward God? Therefore whoever wishes to be a friend of the world makes himself an enemy of God. Or do you think that the Scripture speaks to no purpose: “He jealously desires the Spirit which He has made to dwell in us”? (NASB)

Astaroth (also Ashtaroth, Astarot and Asteroth), in demonology, is the Great Duke of Hell, in the first hierarchy with Beelzebub and Lucifer; he is part of the evil trinity. He is a male figure most likely named after the Mesopotamian goddess Ishtar.
 
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unobtrusive said:
"Do ye think that the scripture saith in vain, The spirit that dwelleth in us lusteth to envy?"

A better description could be that Paul asks a rhetorical question that define opposites.

In our lingo, we would probably hear it this way...'Or do you think that the Scripture has vainly said....'

Reading the previous verse gives better understanding to verse 5.

"Ye adulterers and adulteresses, know ye not that the friendship of the world is enmity with God? whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is the enemy of God."

Then we can understand much easier by reading thins in context, knowing that Paul is exposing the worldly pagan practices of the fertility goddess "Astaroth."

"You adulteresses, do you not know that friendship with the world is hostility toward God? Therefore whoever wishes to be a friend of the world makes himself an enemy of God. Or do you think that the Scripture speaks to no purpose: “He jealously desires the Spirit which He has made to dwell in us”? (NASB)

Astaroth (also Ashtaroth, Astarot and Asteroth), in demonology, is the Great Duke of Hell, in the first hierarchy with Beelzebub and Lucifer; he is part of the evil trinity. He is a male figure most likely named after the Mesopotamian goddess Ishtar.
Click to expand...

PAUL?................
 
Thanks for all the comments everyone has given me some great food to chew on.

E.G. this one of a few cases were I think I like the NKJV better also.
 
EJS1023 said:
Do ye think that the Scripture saith in vain, The spirit that dwellers in us lusteth to envy?
James 4:5.

So I have 2 question, would appreciate any input.

1) Is this passage speaking of the Holy Spirit?
2) Anyone have any idea what passage James is referring too?
Click to expand...

It refers to your spirit, not the Holy Spirit.

James 4:5 Do ye think that the Scripture saith in vain, The spirit that dwelleth in us lusteth to envy?

That is to say, that the natural man that is within us will desire its personal pleasures? Do you think the Scripture is empty when it declares this.?

Solomon wrote in Ecclesiastes that all is vanity to flesh man that walketh under the sun.

Ecclesiastes 1:2: Vanity of vanities, saith the Preacher, vanity of vanities; all is vanity.
 
EJS1023 said:
Do ye think that the Scripture saith in vain, The spirit that dwellers in us lusteth to envy?
James 4:5.

So I have 2 question, would appreciate any input.

1) Is this passage speaking of the Holy Spirit?
2) Anyone have any idea what passage James is referring too?
Click to expand...

In the ESV, it is written “Or do you suppose it is to no purpose that the Scripture says, “He yearns jealously over the spirit that he has made to dwell in us.” In the NAS, Spirit is captalized, referring to the Holy Spirit. In the ESV, spirit is not capitalized, referring to our own spirit. So, so if you think about it the text is referring to our own spirit.

The spirit of man is that part of him which can fellowship with, commune with, and worship God. But this text says that God is yearning jealously over our spirit. The question is, “Why?” Why does God yearn jealously over our spirit? I think the answer comes from verse 4 “You adulterous people! Do you not know that friendship with the world is enmity with God? Therefore whoever wishes to be a friend of the world makes himself an enemy of God.” I did a search, and found that there are 28 direct references to God being jealous in the Old Testament, and almost every time the reason He is jealous is because His people are giving themselves to idols. That must be the reason James calls his readers adulterous people in verse 4. They are spiritual adulterers, because they have given their spirit to the worship of idols rather than the worship of God.
 
EJS1023 said:
Do ye think that the Scripture saith in vain, The spirit that dwellers in us lusteth to envy?
James 4:5. So I have 2 question, would appreciate any input.
1) Is this passage speaking of the Holy Spirit?
2) Anyone have any idea what passage James is referring too?
Click to expand...
This is definitely a difficult verse. So we need to go back to the literal interlinear translation:

Greek
ἢ δοκεῖτε ὅτι κενῶς ἡ γραφὴ λέγει, Πρὸς φθόνον ἐπιποθεῖ τὸ πνεῦμα ὃ κατῴκησεν ἐν ἡμῖν

Literal Interlinear
OR THINK YOU THAT IN VAIN THE SCRIPTURE SAYS:WITH ENVY YEARNS THE SPIRIT THAT HE HAS MADE TO DWELL WITHIN US?

Idiomatic
Or do you think that Scripture says in vain, ‘The Spirit that He has made to dwell within us yearns with envy'?

Since God has told us that He is a "Jealous God", He does not brook idolatry and we are commanded to have no other gods except the one true and living God (who includes God the Holy Spirit). So the Scripture reference is to Exodus 20:5: Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me.

When you fit this into the context, what James is saying is that Christians who adopt the ways of the world are spiritual adulterers and adulteresses (and enemies of God), since they love the world and the things of the world ("friend of the world") more than they love God. As John says in his first epistle, those who love the world do not have the love the Father in them, and the Father is a jealous God also (as are the Son and the Holy Spirit).
 
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EJS1023 said:
Do ye think that the Scripture saith in vain, The spirit that dwellers in us lusteth to envy?
James 4:5.

So I have 2 question, would appreciate any input.

1) Is this passage speaking of the Holy Spirit?
2) Anyone have any idea what passage James is referring too?
Click to expand...

"I God am a jealous God." When we are friends with the world, God is jealous, and rightfully so. Because to be friends with the world means to be evil. And how hard is it for Him to dwell in us when we commit evil acts?

The word 'jealous' in there is correct. But the word 'lust' I think is a translation flaw.
 
< Exodus 20:5, “You shall not worship them or serve them; for I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God.”
< Exodus 34:14, “For you shall not worship any other god, for the LORD, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God.”

Amen Oldhermit

Exactly, His name as an attribute of His power is Jealous. He alone who created all things owns all things and can declare His jealousy as a hidden glory that he will not share with the outward flesh of men .Even the Son of man in that way denied being the one good teacher/master. Saying only God working through the Father is good, not seen. In that way God not seen declares what good by that which He is created.

After each day he finished and God saw that it was good he declared it as so. I would think to help us distinguish good from darkness ,peace form evil .And God by believing it would appear as a work of His faith said let there be; and there was light. And he saw that it was good beforehand.

Isa 45:15 Verily thou art a God that hidest thyself, O God of Israel, the Saviour.

We walk by the unseen glory, which was represented by the Son of man as a God who hides himself, as God in us, with us our Emanuel, in various ways and reveals Himself to a kingdom of Priest, the Christian kingdom, the city of God. Sending out His born again Priest as Ambassadors from the foreign land with the gospel of Christ .

Pro 25:2 It is the glory of God to conceal a thing: but the honour of kings is to search out a matter.

We have been given the privilege to search for the spiritual meaning ,the faith principle that are in many times found in the parables. Like in the parable/proverb above.
 
OneFaith said:
"I God am a jealous God." When we are friends with the world, God is jealous, and rightfully so. Because to be friends with the world means to be evil. And how hard is it for Him to dwell in us when we commit evil acts?

The word 'jealous' in there is correct. But the word 'lust' I think is a translation flaw.
Click to expand...

I agree with you.
In James 4:5, lust is ἐπιποθέω in Greek. It means to intensely crave possession, (earnestly) desire (greatly), (greatly) long (after).

In other scriptures such as James 4:2, "lust" is a different Greek word related to desires of the flesh. It is ἐπιθυμία, meaning "a longing for what is prohibited."

"Ye lust, and have not: ye kill, and desire to have, and cannot obtain: ye fight and war, yet ye have not, because ye ask not." (James 4:2)

You called it right OneFaith, the translation is flawed.

 
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