Jesus, before becoming a man

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
E

evyaniy

Guest
I’m not sure I can agree. The timing of the angels creation is significant it’s own right, wherever or not you have evaluated the emphasis of said creation as wanting.

Heck… Fentanyl is not directly mentioned in scripture, should we now say it’s insignificant to the word of God? Of course not, you can’t study the word of God if you're dead.

Anyhow… The significance of the aforementioned is of the upmost importance if one seeks a complete understanding of chronological events concerning the ages.

But I understand your point… Many other things being more important than when, angels were created… By the way, when we’re cherubs created? Perhaps another discussion in itself…. Thought I would share this.



It is only by the Divine specific act of creation that any created being can be called "a son of God". For that which is "born of the flesh is flesh". God is spirit, and that which is "born of the Spirit is spirit" (John 3:6). Hence Adam is called a "son of God" in Luke 3:38. Those "in Christ" having "the new nature" which is by the direct creation of God (2Cor. 5:17. Eph. 2:10) can be, and are called "sons of God" (John 1:13. Rom. 8:14, 15. 1John 3:1). (*1)

This is why angels are called "sons of God" in every other place where the expression is used in the Old Testament. Job 1:6; 2:1; 38:7. Ps. 29:1; 89:6. Dan. 3:25 (no art.). (*2) We have no authority or right to take the expression in Gen. 6:2, 4 in any other sense. Moreover, in Gen. 6:2 the Sept. renders it "angels". Angels are called "spirits" (Ps. 104:4. Heb. 1:7, 14), for spirits are created by God.

That there was a fall of the angels is certain from Jude 6.

The nature of their fall is clearly stated in the same verse. They left their own oiketerion. This word occurs only in 2Cor. 5:2 and Jude 6, where it is used of the spiritual (or resurrection) body.

The nature of their sin is stated to be "in like manner" to that of the subsequent sins of Sodom and Gomorrha, Jude 7.

The time of their fall is given as having taken place "in the days of Noah" (1Pet. 3:20. 2Pet. 2:7), though there may have been a prior fall which caused the end of "the world that then was" (Gen. 1:1, 2. 2Pet. 3:6).

For this sin they are "reserved unto judgment", 2Pet. 2:4, and are "in prison", 1Pet. 3:19.

Their progeny, called Nephilim (translated "giants"), were monsters of iniquity; and, being superhuman in size and character, had to be destroyed (see Ap. 25). This was the one and only object of the Flood.

Only Noah and his family had preserved their pedigree pure from Adam (Gen. 6:9, see note). All the rest had become "corrupt" (shachath) destroyed [as Adamites]. the only remedy was to destroy it (de facto), as it had become destroyed (de jure). (It is the same word in v. 17 as in vv. 11, 12.) See further under Ap. 25 on the Nephilim.
This irruption of fallen angels was Satan's first attempt to prevent the coming of the Seed of the woman foretold in gen. 3:15. If this could be accomplished, God's Word would have failed, and his own doom would be averted.

As soon as it was made known that the Seed of the woman was to come through ABRAHAM, there must have been another irruption, as recorded in Gen. 6:4, "and also after that" (i.e. after the days of Noah, more than 500 years after the first irruption). The aim of the enemy was to occupy Canaan in advance of Abraham, and so to contest its occupation by his seed. For, when Abraham entered Canaan, we read (Gen. 12:6) "the Canaanite was then (i.e. already) in the land."

In the same chapter (Gen. 12:10-20) we see Satan's next attempt to interfere with Abraham's seed, and frustrate the purpose of God that it should be in "Isaac". This attempt was repeated in 20:1-18.

This great conflict may be seen throughout the Bible, and it forms a great and important subject of Biblical study. In each case the human instrument had his own personal interest to serve, while Satan had his own great object in view. Hence God had, in each case, to interfere and avert the evil and the danger, of which his servants and people were wholly ignorant. The following assaults of the great Enemy stand out prominently :--

The destruction of the chosen family by famine, Gen. 50:20.

The destruction of the male line in Israel, Ex. 1:10, 15, &c. Cp. Ex. 2:5. Heb. 11:23.

The destruction of the whole nation in Pharaoh's pursuit, Ex. 14.

After David's line was singled out (2Sam. 7), that was the next selected for assault. Satan's first assault was in the union of Jehoram and Athaliah by Jehoshaphat, notwithstanding 2Chron. 17:1. Jehoram killed off all his brothers (2Chron. 21:4).

The Arabians slew all his children, except Ahaziah (2Chron. 21:17; 22:1).

When Ahaziah died, Athaliah killed "all the seed royal" (2Chron. 22:10). the babe Joash alone was rescued; and, for six years, the faithfulness of Jehovah's word was at stake (2Chron. 23:3).

Hezekiah was childless, when a double assault was made by the King of Assyria and the King of Terrors (Isa. 36:1; 38:1). God's faithfulness was appealed to and relied on (Ps. 136).

In Captivity, Haman was used to attempt the destruction of the whole nation (Est. 3:6, 12, 13. Cp. 6:1).

Joseph's fear was worked on (Matt. 1:18-20). Notwithstanding the fact that he was "a just man", and kept the Law, he did not wish to have Mary stoned to death (Deut. 24:1); hence Joseph determined to divorce her. But God intervened : "Fear not".

Herod sought the young Child's life (Matt. 2).

At the Temptation, "Cast Thyself down" was Satan's temptation.

At Nazareth, again (Luke 4), there was another attempt to cast Him down and destroy Him.

The two storms on the Lake were other attempts.

At length the cross was reached, and the sepulcher closed; the watch set; and the stone sealed. But "God raised Him from the dead." And now, like another Joash, He is seated and expecting (Heb. 10:12, 13), hidden in the house of God on high; and the members of "the one body" are hidden there "in Him" (Col. 3:1-3), like another Jehoshaba; and going forth to witness of His coming, like another Jehoiada (2Chron. 23:3).

The irruption of "the fallen angels" ("sons of God") was the first attempt; and was directed against the whole human race.
When Abraham was called, then he and his seed were attacked.

When David was enthroned, then the royal line were attacked.

And when "the Seed of the woman" Himself came, then the storm burst upon Him.

Peace to you evyaniy
Thank you very much for this. Excellent and amazing summation with corroborating verses. Much appreciated.

Peace to you as well.
 
E

evyaniy

Guest
wow, got the top of the next page. Hope everyone interested reads your work. Thank you again.
 
Aug 27, 2023
823
210
43
wow, got the top of the next page. Hope everyone interested reads your work. Thank you again.
It is the writings of a very good scholar by the name of E.W. BULLINGER
Glad you enjoyed it.
 
E

evyaniy

Guest
It is the writings of a very good scholar by the name of E.W. BULLINGER
Glad you enjoyed it.
so the fallen angels finally had their way with Him and nailed Him to the cross and lifted Him up above the earth for all to see. that fulfilled the prophesies concerning Him and sealed their fate. they must not have understood His prayers in the Psalms and the Prophesies and the Sacrifices in the Law that revealed what would happen.

That also helps explain why the Scriptures concerning Him had to be somewhat hidden so they could not know YAH's plan of Salvation. The New Testament was not written yet and His private conversations with His Apostles about His impending crucifixion and death may not have been known to them so they went forward with their plan to eliminate Him. they must not have understood the promised resurrection either and did not know or understand that Psalm 119 was His prayer for life and to be raised because of His obedience to the Law and His Father as the Law and Scriptures required of Him.

He accomplished our Salvation and triumphed over the powers of darkness by obeying His Father's plan and trusting Him with the outcome.

Hallelu YAH what a Savior
 
E

evyaniy

Guest
Correcting a sentence.

Psalm 119 was His prayer for life and to be raised because of His obedience to the Law and His Father in offering His life to save us, as the Law and Scriptures required of Him.

E.W. Bullinger also known as E.W.B. used to have a couple of His books somewhere. Thank you
 

Mem

Senior Member
Sep 23, 2014
5,950
1,697
113
Within the recently discussed viewpoint of the first and second creation, was the 'first' heavens and earth that which contained the dinosaurs? and they were not 'recreated' in the second?

And on a different note, going in the same line of thought that the natural reflects the spiritual, were the heavens and the earth created as one and, through disobedience, there emerged a separation, or a 'rift,' between heaven and earth? Within this perspective, it is possible that the separation manifests in the form of speaking of the spiritual even as it is contained within the natural yet making the distinction between one against the other to illuminate the reality of the rift where there should be continuity. And so, the term "sons of God," may qualify to speak of both natural and spiritual 'beings' in regard to any certain individual considering the 'war within ourselves' as we sojourn within this current state of duality. If so, then being called a 'son of God' doesn't so much make a distinction between the natural (or physical existence) and the spiritual (existence) but rather would reflect on an individual soul's continuity within the multifaceted realm of existence.
 
Aug 27, 2023
823
210
43
Within the recently discussed viewpoint of the first and second creation, was the 'first' heavens and earth that which contained the dinosaurs? and they were not 'recreated' in the second?

And on a different note, going in the same line of thought that the natural reflects the spiritual, were the heavens and the earth created as one and, through disobedience, there emerged a separation, or a 'rift,' between heaven and earth? Within this perspective, it is possible that the separation manifests in the form of speaking of the spiritual even as it is contained within the natural yet making the distinction between one against the other to illuminate the reality of the rift where there should be continuity. And so, the term "sons of God," may qualify to speak of both natural and spiritual 'beings' in regard to any certain individual considering the 'war within ourselves' as we sojourn within this current state of duality. If so, then being called a 'son of God' doesn't so much make a distinction between the natural (or physical existence) and the spiritual (existence) but rather would reflect on an individual soul's continuity within the multifaceted realm of existence.
Hello Mem,
How would respond to the following?

It is only by the Divine specific act of creation that any created being can be called "a son of God". For that which is "born of the flesh is flesh". God is spirit, and that which is "born of the Spirit is spirit" (John 3:6). Hence Adam is called a "son of God" in Luke 3:38. Those "in Christ" having "the new nature" which is by the direct creation of God (2Cor. 5:17. Eph. 2:10) can be, and are called "sons of God" (John 1:13. Rom. 8:14, 15. 1John 3:1). (*1)

This is why angels are called "sons of God" in every other place where the expression is used in the Old Testament. Job 1:6; 2:1; 38:7. Ps. 29:1; 89:6. Dan. 3:25 (no art.). (*2) We have no authority or right to take the expression in Gen. 6:2, 4 in any other sense. Moreover, in Gen. 6:2 the Sept. renders it "angels". Angels are called "spirits" (Ps. 104:4. Heb. 1:7, 14), for spirits are created by God.
 

Mem

Senior Member
Sep 23, 2014
5,950
1,697
113
Hello Mem,
How would respond to the following?

It is only by the Divine specific act of creation that any created being can be called "a son of God". For that which is "born of the flesh is flesh". God is spirit, and that which is "born of the Spirit is spirit" (John 3:6). Hence Adam is called a "son of God" in Luke 3:38. Those "in Christ" having "the new nature" which is by the direct creation of God (2Cor. 5:17. Eph. 2:10) can be, and are called "sons of God" (John 1:13. Rom. 8:14, 15. 1John 3:1). (*1)

This is why angels are called "sons of God" in every other place where the expression is used in the Old Testament. Job 1:6; 2:1; 38:7. Ps. 29:1; 89:6. Dan. 3:25 (no art.). (*2) We have no authority or right to take the expression in Gen. 6:2, 4 in any other sense. Moreover, in Gen. 6:2 the Sept. renders it "angels". Angels are called "spirits" (Ps. 104:4. Heb. 1:7, 14), for spirits are created by God.
This is exactly what influenced the expression of my latter thought. As per the statement, "Angels are called 'spirits,' might it not qualify if it were said that "spirits are called angels"? And so, if each individual is a spirit (angel) as much as a body (man) then visible people may well qualify as invisible spirits (since we cannot see one another's spirit).

This quote from C.S. Lewis came to mind: ]
"There are no ordinary people. You have never talked to a mere mortal. Nations, cultures, arts, civilizations - these are mortal, and their life is to ours as the life of a gnat. But it is immortals whom we joke with, work with, marry, snub and exploit - immortal horrors or everlasting splendors" (Weight of Glory, 1949).
 
E

evyaniy

Guest
John 12

30 Yeshua answered, “This voice hasn’t come for My sake, but for your sakes. 31 Now is the judgment of this world. Now the prince of this world will be cast out. 32 And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to Myself.” 33 But He said this, signifying by what kind of death He should die.

John 14

30 I will no more speak much with you, for the prince of the world comes, and he has nothing in Me. 31 But that the world may know that I love the Father, and as the Father commanded Me, even so I do. Arise, let’s go from here.

Luke 22

52 Yeshua said to the chief priests, captains of the temple, and elders, who had come against Him, “Have you come out as against a robber, with swords and clubs? 53 When I was with you in the temple daily, you didn’t stretch out your hands against Me. But this is your hour, and the power of darkness.”

Colossians 1

13 He has delivered us from the power of darkness and conveyed us into the kingdom of the Son of His love, 14 in Whom we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins.

Colossians 2

13 You were dead through your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh. He made you alive together with Him, having forgiven us all our trespasses, 14 wiping out the handwriting in ordinances which was against us. He has taken it out of the way, nailing it to the cross. 15 Having stripped the principalities and the powers, He made a spectacle of them openly, triumphing over them in it.

He stripped them and made a spectacle of them openly through what He allowed them to do to Him. Talk about turning the tables. While He saved us by doing it.
 
Jan 20, 2023
50
15
8
Why is it necessary in your theology for the eternal God Jesus Christ to be or is Michael the arc angel?
Quite simple really, since the God we call Jesus, was not know as Jesus, during the OT times, or before the creation of man, by the angles, It increases one's knowledge, therefore love of God to understand all that He has done too reveal Himself to His creation, prior to taking on human form.
 

bluto

Senior Member
Aug 4, 2016
2,043
513
113
Quite simple really, since the God we call Jesus, was not know as Jesus, during the OT times, or before the creation of man, by the angles, It increases one's knowledge, therefore love of God to understand all that He has done too reveal Himself to His creation, prior to taking on human form.
What are you talking about that the God we call Jesus was not known as Jesus during the OT times. What difference does that make? So instead you decide (or whoever wrote all your points) that this God is really Michael the arc angel, who btw was created by this God Jesus.

I keep telling you and proving to you that the angel of the Lord is the preincarnate Jesus Christ. I also have told you that word "angel" does NOT mean the person is an actual angel. The Hebrew word for messenger/angel is "malak. I'm having to keep repeating myself because you just don't seem to get it.

And speaking of the angel of the Lord look at Judges 13:15-18. At vsw17, "And Manoah said to the angel of the Lord, "What is your name, so that when your words come to pass we may honor you?" Vs18< But the angel of the Lord said to Him, Why do you ask my name, seeing it is "wonderful." Notice the angel of the Lord did NOT say his name was Michael.

You said God we call Jesus, was not known as Jesus etc. Like I said, what difference does that make. He did appear numerous times in the Old Testament. The Redeemer/Jesus brought the Jews out of Egypt at Jude 5. The Rock in the wilderness was Christ at 1 Corinthians 10:4. The apostle John at John 12:40-41 quotes Isaiah at Isaiah 6:1 of Jesus sitting on the throne. Who was the "I AM" at John 8:56-58? Who appeared in the burning bush at Exodus 3 claiming to be God and Stephen at Acts 7 references Jesus. Lastly, who do you think protected the Jews in the Old Testament and acted as a mediator to them?

I just thought of this right this second. I gave you Jude 5 where it refers to Jesus (at vs4) and how he saved the people out of the land of Egypt, subsequently destroyed those who did not believe. Vs6, And the angels who did not keep their own domain, but abandoned their proper abode, He has kept in eternal bonds under darkness for the Judgment of the great day."

Is it not interesting that you have at vs9 the following: "But Michael the arc angel (who you say is really Jesus) , when he disputed with the devil and argued about the body of Moses, did not dare pronounce against him a railing judgment, but said, "The Lord rebuke you." So, kindly explain how Jesus who is identified as "our only Master and LORD, Jesus Christ" able to keep certain angels who abandoned their proper abode, HE/Jesus Christ is able to keep them in eternal bonds under darkness for the judgment of the great day."

This alone proves that the angel of the Lord Jesus Christ is "NOT" Michael the arc angel. You had better seriously consider changing your position because it's wrong in spades.

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto
 

Evmur

Well-known member
Feb 28, 2021
4,944
2,542
113
London
christianchat.com
Based on your knowledge of the bible, what do you know about Jesus before He became a man and was given the name Jesus?

Was He inactive or proactive in revealing the Godhead to God's creation?

Please explain in some detail, not looking for a yes or no response here. The reason for the question is to expand our knowledge and appreciation of the Godhead.
He is the means by which God created. The Word of God. All things were made by Him and without Him was not anything made that is made.

Busy eh?
 

Pilgrimshope

Well-known member
Sep 2, 2020
12,308
4,977
113
People have got to remember that angels are the product of the verb ("created") in Col. 1:16-17, hence, the "powers," "rulers," "authorities." What do you think those "powers," "rulers," and "authorities" are exactly, if not the angelic hosts? They were not "passively" present at their creation. Heads out of the clouds.
i think if we start here

“for by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: and he is before all things, and by him all things consist.”
‭‭Colossians‬ ‭1:16-17‬ ‭

creation consists of everything we see and also everything spoken of that is invisible and of the heavenly realms earth and heaven visible and Invisable earth and heaven spiritual home and earthly home

“The heaven, even the heavens, are the LORD's: ( this is where the angels dwell )

But the earth hath he given to the children of men.”( this is where man dwells )
‭‭Psalm‬ ‭115:16‬ ‭


See how the angels don’t have an inheritance ? They are servants of God in heaven and messengers to those on earth. Man is Gods beloved chosen and the hiers of his creation the ones he gave dominion upon earth

when he created heaven and earth the heavens were his and the earth was mans

A third of the angels rebelled over this they are greater than man more powerful but God chose man as the hiers and rulers of earth not angels . Later after the war in heaven between the angels of God and the rebels following Satan ots then that the fallen angels inhabit earth and go to war with mankind who believe the gospel .

The thing is the lord is the beginning and creator of all things whether we see and understand them or not each has a unique place in Gods order and structure of his creation man was chosen above all creatires to be made in Gods image and inherit his creation .

angels are spiritual ministers meant to minister salvation to mankind who are the hiers angels are creations of the lord and they have thoer place in his design so is and does man the children of God and the spiritual servants of god
 

oldhermit

Senior Member
Jul 28, 2012
9,143
612
113
70
Alabama
Based on your knowledge of the bible, what do you know about Jesus before He became a man and was given the name Jesus?

Was He inactive or proactive in revealing the Godhead to God's creation?

Please explain in some detail, not looking for a yes or no response here. The reason for the question is to expand our knowledge and appreciation of the Godhead.
If you like Magenta, I can message you on this matter. Perhaps this will help you have a clearer picture of the specific functions of each member of the Triadic Unity.