Jesus Christ; From 100% God, to 100% Flesh and Blood man, to 100% God?

[Eccl12and13]

Readers.....let's do as God's word tells us before commenting and replying on this post. Let's put aside doctrine that is not supported by scripture and do as the word of God tells us;


"And he humbled thee, and suffered thee to hunger, and fed thee with manna, which thou knewest not, neither did thy fathers know; that he might make thee know that man doth not live by bread only, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of the LORD doth man live."

"But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God."

"All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:"


Let's use every word and ALL scriptures to come up with a biblical answer for the question asked. ALL of the words of God are to be used for reproof AND correction. This is where we are to get our doctrine. So let's begin.....


Jesus Christ; From 100% God, to 100% Flesh and Blood man, to 100% God?


Let's start at the beginning....

John 1
[1] In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
[2] The same was in the beginning with God.
[3] All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.


So in the beginning was the Word. And whoever this Word was, He was with God AND at the beginning He was God. Well.....let's find out just who is this one that is called the Word....


[14] And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.


Ok....NOW we have some information we can work with. Whoever this person was that was called the Word, went from being God to being made flesh. He was also the only begotten of the Father. Let's find more information on this one called the Word.

Luke 1
[35] And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.

John 3
[16] For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
[17] For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
[18] He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

And just to further confirm...let's not forget what else was said about the one called the Word; "...All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made."

Col.1
[13] Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:
[16] For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
[17] And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.

Heb.1
[1] God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
[2] Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;


So now we have proved exactly who the one called the Word is; It is Jesus Christ, the only begotten of God, the one that created everything that was made. Now that we know the Word is Jesus Christ and now that we know He was made flesh....let's define just what this flesh is that Jesus became. Let's also determine what Jesus was BEFORE becoming flesh.


Isa.31
[3] Now the Egyptians are men, and not God; and their horses flesh, and not spirit. When the LORD shall stretch out his hand, both he that helpeth shall fall, and he that is holpen shall fall down, and they all shall fail together.

God makes a distinction above. Horses are NOT spirit...they are flesh. Let's continue with our search....

Gen.6
[12] And God looked upon the earth, and, behold, it was corrupt; for all flesh had corrupted his way upon the earth.
[13] And God said unto Noah, The end of all flesh is come before me; for the earth is filled with violence through them; and, behold, I will destroy them with the earth.
[17] And, behold, I, even I, do bring a flood of waters upon the earth, to destroy all flesh, wherein is the breath of life, from under heaven; and every thing that is in the earth shall die.
[19] And of every living thing of all flesh, two of every sort shalt thou bring into the ark, to keep them alive with thee; they shall be male and female.

So not only are Horses flesh....but everything that God made that breaths upon this earth is also flesh.

Gen.7
[21] And all flesh died that moved upon the earth, both of fowl, and of cattle, and of beast, and of every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth, and every man:

So man too is considered a flesh being. And we also know that flesh is NOT spirit and is NOT God. So what is God? Let's read....

John 4
[24] God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

And what did the scriptures tell us the Word was BEFORE coming in the flesh?; "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God."

And let's confirm again what Jesus was in the beginning....

Phil.2
[5] Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
[6] Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:


Now we are getting to see a difference. God's word tells us that man is flesh and blood and that God is a Spirit. Jesus was God in the beginning and then was born flesh and blood man. It is becoming clear that God, a spirit being is NOT the same as man, a flesh and blood being. Let's find out more about spirits....

Heb.1
[7] And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire.
[14] Are they not all ministering spirits, sent forth to minister for them who shall be heirs of salvation?

So now we know that angels too are spirits. So angelic beings are of the same family as God. BOTH are spirit beings, as opposed to man, flesh beings. Let's confirm this with scripture....

1 Cor.15
[35] But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come?

So the question is asked, "What type of body will those that raise from the dead will have?". Let's find out...

[39] All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds.

Now we already know what flesh beings are from reading Gen. chap's 6 & 7. And above we read the same thing. There are different types of flesh...but ALL of the above are flesh beings. Let's continue.....

[40] There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another.

And now we find that there is a difference between a flesh being and a spirit being.

[42] So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:
[43] It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:
[44] It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

When man is born of woman he is born a flesh being and man then dies. When man is raised he will no longer have a flesh and blood body, he will no longer be a flesh being.....he will be a spirit being. Man is born a flesh being but will be raised as a spirit being. Once this happens, man will have been born into the family of God, he will be as God...a spirit being. Let's continue. Let's find why Jesus came to this earth....

Heb.2
[5] For unto the angels hath he not put in subjection the world to come, whereof we speak.
[6] But one in a certain place testified, saying, What is man, that thou art mindful of him? or the son of man, that thou visitest him?
[7] Thou madest him a little lower than the angels; thou crownedst him with glory and honour, and didst set him over the works of thy hands:

Above we find that man was made just a little lower than the angels. Was there any other that was made just as man? Let's read...

Heb.2
[9] But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.
[14] Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;
[16] For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.

Phil.2
[7] But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
[8] And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.

Now a greater picture is coming together. We find that Jesus was born NOT as a spirit being, for He, just as man, was made lower that the angels. Jesus was born of a woman. Jesus did NOT take on the spirit nature of angels, but was born as a flesh and blood being just as you and I. And why did Jesus have to take the form of a flesh and blood being? The scripture already told us; "...for the suffering of death...", "...And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross."

Think about this for a moment..... God is a spirit being. Angels are spirit beings. Can a mortal man kill a spirit being? Can man kill God? Spirit beings CANNOT die. That is why God had to make a place called hell for their punishment. You cannot kill a spirit being. Let's continue to read and see how Jesus went from flesh and blood to spirit.

Here is a description of Jesus BEFORE His death...

1 John 5
[6] This is he that came by water and blood, even Jesus Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is truth.

1 Pet.4
[1] Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin;


And now a description of Him after His death but BEFORE becoming a spirit being....


Luke 24
[39] Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.

Above we find that Jesus was yet a flesh and blood being AFTER His resurrection. With His own words He tells us He had not been made into a spirit being, for He still had a flesh body, something He tells us a spirit being does not have. At this point He had not ascended to heaven, the dwelling place of the Father.

But when He ascended to the Father as our redeemer He was made a spirit being once again. Let's read what Jesus asked of the Father

John 17
[5] And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.

Jesus asked to be as He was with the Father before the world was. And what was Jesus before the world? What was Jesus in the beginning? "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God."

Jesus was God!

And what is God? "God is a Spirit:..."

Christ was made a spirit being before entering into heaven. He had to, hence the scriptures;

1 Cor.15
[50] Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

Jesus could not enter heaven with a flesh and blood body. Something that He clearly tells us He had above in Luke 24:39. So sometime after His resurrection BUT before entering heaven, God the Father granted Jesus request; "glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was."

Jesus had to go through the same transformation that each and every one of us hope and pray for. Jesus had to be 'born again'!


Spirit beings are not made up of the same substance as flesh and blood beings. Why is knowing this important? Because in order for mans sins to be forgiven BLOOD HAD TO BE SHED! And that is why Jesus came to this earth. To shed His blood for the remission of sins. Had Jesus been a 100% spirit being He would not have been able to accomplish what He came to do. Had Jesus been 100% God how would He have been able to save mankind? Something HAD to die to save mankind of his sins! And God cannot die! Only flesh and blood beings die....Jesus was just that; flesh and blood.


Let's review...


- Jesus was God in the beginning. John 1:1
- Jesus was then born flesh and blood of a woman. Luke 1:35, John 3:16-18
- Flesh and blood beings are NOT spirit beings. Isa. 31:3
- God and the angels are spirit beings. John 4:24, Heb. 1:7&14
- Flesh and blood beings are not made of the same substance as spirit beings. 1 John 5:6, Luke 24:39
- Jesus and man were made lower than the angels. Heb. 2:7&9
- Jesus took on the nature of man for the suffering of death. Heb. 2:9
- Jesus asked to be as He was in the beginning. John 17:5
- Jesus was born with a spirit body before entering heaven. 1 Cor.15:45-46, 50
- God is a spirit. John 4:24
- Jesus is now God, a spirit being as He was in the beginning. John 1:1


Now let's read of those that do NOT believe Jesus Christ was born of Mary as 100% man...


1 John 4
[2] Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:
[3] And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.

2 John 1
[7] For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.


Jesus was 100% flesh and blood man when born of Mary!


Jesus Christ; from 100% God, to 100% Flesh and Blood man, to 100% God...... again!


.

 

[Eccl12and13]

bump it up!

 

[Whatdoesthebiblesay]

A very interesting topic. I used to believe the same way as you on this subject. After further study i now believe as you pointed out Jesus is fully God and fully man. As the bible teaches God became a man to save us because God as spirit (John 4:24) can not die (1Tim 1:17). However no scripture ever shows Jesus stripping off His humanity before or after His ascension. In fact i believe the bible gives enough evidence to prove Jesus is still fully God and fully man to this very day. When jesus was resurected as you pointed out He was not a spirit but flesh and bone (Luke 24:39) not flesh and blood as paul speaks of in (1Cor 15). Jesus rose from the dead both body and spirit but it was a new glorified body for after His resurection Jesus could vanish (Luke 24:31) appear in a different form (Mark 16:12) even walk through doors when shut (John 20:19). Our flesh and blood bodies can not do any of these things just as Christs flesh and blood body would not. But after His resurection in His new body He could.
Further evidence to prove Jesus is still a man is after His ascension in (Acts 1). We read of Stephen about to be stoned to death in (Acts 7:54-60) in verse 56 Stephen says ''behold, I see the heavens opened up and the Son of Man standing at the right hand of God.'' Notice the word (standing) present tense. Stephen saw a man in heaven and not just any man. THe Son of Man we know from the context of this passage to be Jesus Christ.
In (Col 2:9) Paul writes For in Him all the fullness of Deity dwells in bodily form. many things to notice from this verse
1. The Him is speaking of Christ.
2. Deity dwells (dwells) present tense in bodily form.
3. This letter was written around A.D. 60 aproxamitly 30 years after Christs ascension, yet still speaks of Deity dwelling in bodily form.

In (1Tim 2:5) Paul says For there is one God and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.
1. To be a good mediator is to be one equally identified with both parties something Christ is, fully God and fully man.
2. Paul speaks of our mediator being the man Christ Jesus.
3. Again Paul writing this letter to Timothy 30 something years after Christs ascension yet still speaks of Christ Jesus being a man.
4. If we are saved in the man Christ Jesus and He strips off His humanity what would happen to us?

God can not be over God. There is no chain of command in the Godhead. As God Jesus is over all things yet as a man He subjects Himself to God as we read about in (1Cor 15:27,28).

From what i can see Jesus is still fully God and fully man. Still in a body not the same body as before His death but in His new body after His resurection.
We can agree to disagree just thought i would point these things out if nothing else its interesting to look at. God bless

 

[777Yeshua777]

John 1:1-14

If Jesus is the Word of God, then this must be Him...

Genesis 15:1
James 4:12

 

[feedm3]

A very interesting topic. I used to believe the same way as you on this subject. After further study i now believe as you pointed out Jesus is fully God and fully man. As the bible teaches God became a man to save us because God as spirit (John 4:24) can not die (1Tim 1:17). However no scripture ever shows Jesus stripping off His humanity before or after His ascension. In fact i believe the bible gives enough evidence to prove Jesus is still fully God and fully man to this very day. When jesus was resurected as you pointed out He was not a spirit but flesh and bone (Luke 24:39) not flesh and blood as paul speaks of in (1Cor 15). Jesus rose from the dead both body and spirit but it was a new glorified body for after His resurection Jesus could vanish (Luke 24:31) appear in a different form (Mark 16:12) even walk through doors when shut (John 20:19). Our flesh and blood bodies can not do any of these things just as Christs flesh and blood body would not. But after His resurection in His new body He could.
Further evidence to prove Jesus is still a man is after His ascension in (Acts 1). We read of Stephen about to be stoned to death in (Acts 7:54-60) in verse 56 Stephen says ''behold, I see the heavens opened up and the Son of Man standing at the right hand of God.'' Notice the word (standing) present tense. Stephen saw a man in heaven and not just any man. THe Son of Man we know from the context of this passage to be Jesus Christ.
In (Col 2:9) Paul writes For in Him all the fullness of Deity dwells in bodily form. many things to notice from this verse
1. The Him is speaking of Christ.
2. Deity dwells (dwells) present tense in bodily form.
3. This letter was written around A.D. 60 aproxamitly 30 years after Christs ascension, yet still speaks of Deity dwelling in bodily form.

In (1Tim 2:5) Paul says For there is one God and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.
1. To be a good mediator is to be one equally identified with both parties something Christ is, fully God and fully man.
2. Paul speaks of our mediator being the man Christ Jesus.
3. Again Paul writing this letter to Timothy 30 something years after Christs ascension yet still speaks of Christ Jesus being a man.
4. If we are saved in the man Christ Jesus and He strips off His humanity what would happen to us?

God can not be over God. There is no chain of command in the Godhead. As God Jesus is over all things yet as a man He subjects Himself to God as we read about in (1Cor 15:27,28).

From what i can see Jesus is still fully God and fully man. Still in a body not the same body as before His death but in His new body after His resurection.
We can agree to disagree just thought i would point these things out if nothing else its interesting to look at. God bless

Great breakdown of this subject. I agree with everything you said here. Cant think of anything to add.

I do like the way the ESV renders Col 2:9:

(ESV) For in him the whole fullness of deity dwells bodily,

Thanks, I really enjoyed reading this.

 

[Eccl12and13]

Yet another scripture confirming that Jesus Christ was 100% flesh and blood man when born of Mary....


1 Peter 3
[18] For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:


.

 

[Trax]

Jesus Christ; from 100% God, to 100% Flesh and Blood man, to 100% God...... again!

Jesus will always have a body. Have you not read:

Heb 13:8 Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever. (If He had a body then, He has one now, and He'll have one forever.)

Act 1:11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.

He went up with a body, and He is coming back in like manner, with a body.

And Jesus never stopped being God. Please note these scriptures:
Joh 4:10 Jesus answered and said unto her, If thou knewest the gift of God, and who it is that saith to thee, Give me to drink; thou wouldest have asked of him, and he would have given thee living water.
Jer 2:13 For my people have committed two evils; they have forsaken me the fountain of living waters, and hewed them out cisterns, broken cisterns, that can hold no water.

Now, here's the deal. Jesus hasn't been to the cross yet and still in His human body,, YET He claimed He gives Living Water that only Jehovah can give.

Jesus is fully God and fully man and He is the same yesterday, today, and forever.

Now, go back and reveiw John 4:10 and Jer 2:13, where Jesus claimed to be Jehovah, cause you'll
need it for this next part.
Gen 18:1-4 And the LORD (Jehovah) appeared unto him in the plains of Mamre: and he sat in the tent door in the heat of the day; (2) And he lift up his eyes and looked, and, lo, three men stood by him: and when he saw them, he ran to meet them from the tent door, and bowed himself toward the ground, (3) And said, My Lord, if now I have found favour in thy sight, pass not away, I pray thee, from thy servant: (4) Let a little water, I pray you, be fetched, and wash your feet, and rest yourselves under the tree: (You simply can NOT wash the feet of a spirit, seeing how they don't have
a body? But there is your body....the same yesterday, today, and forever)

Exo 33:22-23 And it shall come to pass, while my (Jehovah's) glory passeth by, that I will put thee in a clift of the rock, and will cover thee with my hand while I pass by: (23) And I will take away mine hand, and thou shalt see my back parts: but my face shall not be seen.
(Where these body parts coming from? I can show you other examples where Jesus, in the flesh,
before the cross, not only claimed Jehovah's titles, but did what only Jehovah could do.)

 

[Bea22]

Yes Spiritual Body is the Bride with Christ as the Head. But He has a glorified corporal body also which everyone shall look on and every knee shall bow to.

 

[WolfInOxHide]

John 1
[1] In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
[2] The same was in the beginning with God.
[3] All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

Word: a man? God? a spirit?
Or the manifestation of representation?
The "word"

Peace.

 

[Bea22]

Word: a man? God? a spirit?
Or the manifestation of representation?
The "word"

Peace.

Word: Spirit and Life (zóé)
Logos - Spirit
Rhema - utterance / spoken
Gramma - written
AND thus manifestation by representation - if ye abide in me and my words abide in you

 

[NWL]

Readers.....let's do as God's word tells us before commenting and replying on this post. Let's put aside doctrine that is not supported by scripture and do as the word of God tells us.

If Jesus is God why does He call Jehovah the ONLY True GOD

(John 17:1) “..Jesus spoke these things..he said: “Father..This means everlasting life, their taking in knowledge of you, the only true God..”

If Jesus is God why did he say to ONLY Worship Jehovah, Shouldn’t he of directed worship to the Godhead.

(Luke 4:8) “..Jesus said to him: “It is written, ‘It is Jehovah your God you must worship, and it is to him alone you must render sacred service..”

Why do scriptures say that Jehovah ALONE is the Most High and not Jesus or the Holy Spirit.

(Psalm 83:18) “..That people may know that you, whose name is Jehovah, You alone are the Most High over all the earth..”

Since God is three distinct yet beins yet completely co-equal why do scriptures and Jesus Himself repeatedly refer to Jehovah as God ALONE.

 

[feedm3]

If Jesus is God why does He call Jehovah the ONLY True GOD

(John 17:1) “..Jesus spoke these things..he said: “Father..This means everlasting life, their taking in knowledge of you, the only true God..”

Because He is, there is no other God besides Jehovah. Yet Jehovah and Christ are one as well as the HS.

Jn 17:21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me

If not, then why does Isa speak of John preparing the way for Jehovah, and Malachi, preparing the way for me, and yet we know this is speaking of Christ?

Isa 40:3 The voice of him that crieth in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, (Christ)

Mal 3:1 Behold, I will send my messenger, and he shall prepare the way before me: and the Lord, whom ye seek, shall suddenly come to his temple, even the messenger of the covenant, whom ye delight in: behold, he shall come, saith the Lord(<-Jehovah) of hosts make straight in the desert a highway for our God

We know without a doubt John the baptist, and Jesus are the fulfillment of both these prophecies.

If Jesus is God why did he say to ONLY Worship Jehovah, Shouldn&#8217;t he of directed worship to the Godhead.

(Luke 4:8) &#8220;..Jesus said to him: &#8220;It is written, &#8216;It is Jehovah your God you must worship, and it is to him alone you must render sacred service..&#8221;

Because worshiping Jehovah does NOT exclude the Godhead.

If it did, then when Jesus allowed people to worship him, would he not be allowing sin? Why did he not stop them like John and Peter did?

Rev 19:10 And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy

Here is one of many examples of jesus allowing men to worship him.
Acts 14:33 Then they that were in the ship came and worshipped him, saying, Of a truth thou art the Son of God

Why did he not tell them to get up, and to only worship God if he was not deity?

Why do scriptures say that Jehovah ALONE is the Most High and not Jesus or the Holy Spirit.

(Psalm 83:18) &#8220;..That people may know that you, whose name is Jehovah, You alone are the Most High over all the earth..&#8221;

Already answred.

Since God is three distinct yet begins yet completely co-equal why do scriptures and Jesus Himself repeatedly refer to Jehovah as God ALONE.

Now some questions for you.
1. Why did Jesus allow Thomas to Call him God? (please dont use the defeated JW explanation that Thomas was taking the Lord's name if vain. That "omg" expression was not even around then.

Jn 20:28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God. 29 Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed

Why did he not correct Thomas from such a false view if he was not deity? My Lord AND my God.

2. If Jehovah is ONLY ONE being, why is he referred to in plural form, Elohim? Which literally means "the Gods"?

In the beginning God (elohim the gods) created the heaven and the earth. Why plural?

Let us make man in OUR image? Why more plural pronouns?


3. Why does Jesus take credit as our creator as well as everything else?

Jn 1:3 All things (NOT SOME)were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

4. How can Jesus be eternal if he is not deity?

15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature(<--In Rank not creation, he was not created):
16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: <---If ALL things in heaven as well as earth were created by Jesus, then he also created the angels, therefore must be above them, as Hebrews tells us.

To be "before ALL things" means he himself could not have been created by anything, because that would mean something was existed before him, making these words in Col false.

17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist. <--Must be eternal to be before ALL things

18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.

19 For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell(the fullness of the Godhead bodily ESV);


The only way to answer these and be consistent is to change the meanings of words to fit a certain doctrine.

WE can ignore the Greek words, and the definition of them, take out what we dont want, and what do you get?

You get the New World translation.

If one could prove what your saying with scripture, there would be no need for the JW's paraphrase.

That is how far they had to go, because they realized that the original Greek does not teach this, so the made a bible of their own that does.

 

[resurrection33]

God decided he needed to come to earth as a man, I believe, but he continued to be God, also.

 

[Jon4TheCross]

Jos 5:14 And he said, Nay; but as captain of the host of the LORD am I now come. And Joshua fell on his face to the earth, and did worship, and said unto him, What saith my lord unto his servant?
Jos 5:15 And the captain of the LORD'S host said unto Joshua, Loose thy shoe from off thy foot; for the place whereon thou standest is holy. And Joshua did so.

This is an example of The Word of God before The Word was made flesh and dwelt among us.

Joh 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

A way that I explain it to people that seems to help is:
God is Light. God is Light that comes from the heat/fire, which in this case represents The Father. God is Light that comes from the oil/fuel of the fire, which in this case represents The Word of God. God is Light that comes from the air/oxygen of the fire, which in this case represents the Holy Spirit. Jesus is Light/God.

Joh 1:4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.
Joh 1:5 And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.

Jesus is the Fire, Oil, Air, and Light/God in an earthen vessel/lamp. Jesus is the only earthen vessel not adopted.

That is the best way I know how to convey the understanding to someone about the fact that Jesus is The Father in an earthen vessel.
Rom 11:29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.
Jas 1:17 Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning.
Jas 1:18 Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.

God gave His only begotten earthen vessel and example of Love/Light/a son (an eternal example, because the gifts and calling of God are without repentance). Jesus will always be the eternal example for us, fellow heirs, children of God (but we're adopted of course).

I hope that helped. I love you all.

 

[NWL]

Because He is, there is no other God besides Jehovah. Yet Jehovah and Christ are one as well as the HS.

Jn 17:21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me

If not, then why does Isa speak of John preparing the way for Jehovah, and Malachi, preparing the way for me, and yet we know this is speaking of Christ?

Isa 40:3 The voice of him that crieth in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, (Christ)

Mal 3:1 Behold, I will send my messenger, and he shall prepare the way before me: and the Lord, whom ye seek, shall suddenly come to his temple, even the messenger of the covenant, whom ye delight in: behold, he shall come, saith the Lord(<-Jehovah) of hosts make straight in the desert a highway for our God

We know without a doubt John the baptist, and Jesus are the fulfillment of both these prophecies.

Because worshiping Jehovah does NOT exclude the Godhead.

If it did, then when Jesus allowed people to worship him, would he not be allowing sin? Why did he not stop them like John and Peter did?

Rev 19:10 And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy

Here is one of many examples of jesus allowing men to worship him.
Acts 14:33 Then they that were in the ship came and worshipped him, saying, Of a truth thou art the Son of God

Why did he not tell them to get up, and to only worship God if he was not deity?


Already answred.

First of all it’s silly for you to use John 17:21 to back up your claim that Jesus and Jehovah are one, for two reason.

Firstly it goes against BOTH the Bible and the Trinity doctrine for Jehovah and Jesus to be one as the Bible doesn’t teach it and the trinity doesn’t teach it, the trinity teaches that all three are one, not two are one as the scripture says.

Secondly it talks about them being one in agreement or be one in faith, if you seriously believe that John 17:21 actually mean both Jehovah and Jesus are one then I guess too that we are also part of the Godhead since Jesus wants us to be one with him too.

(John 17:20-22) “..I make request...concerning those putting faith in me...in order that they may all be one, just as you, Father, are in union with me and I am in union with you, that they also may be in union with us..in order that they may be one just as we are one..”

Your answer, “..Because He is..” to my question, “If Jesus is God why does He call Jehovah the ONLY True GOD “ will no suffice. You overlook scripture without any hesitation, it’s laughable. It’s contradictory for Jesus who Is God to call his co-equal partner the ONLY TRUE GOD, do you know what ONLY means??

As for Isaiah preparing the way for Jehovah its quite simple, as you can see in Malachi, Jesus is Gods Messenger, now imagine a King wants to send a message to a neighboring country and the country receiving the message says “the neighboring King Is going to give me a message, go and prepare the way” but then now imagine if the receivers of the message get the letter and conclude that the messenger who was sent by the King to deliver the message is the King himself?? Of course not!! Its ludicrous!! This is what you’ve done!!

(Isaiah 40:3) Listen! Someone is calling out in the wilderness: “Clear up the way of Jehovah, YOU people! MAKE the highway for our God through the desert plain straight.

(Malachi 3:1) “Look! I am sending my messenger [John the B], and he must clear up a way before me. And suddenly there will come to His temple the [true] Lord [Jesus]..He will certainly come..Jehovah of armies has said.”

These two scriptures in no way prove that Jesus is Jehovah.

Moving on, the fact that Jesus quoted “..It is Jehovah your God you must worship, and it is to him alone you must render sacred service..” shows that he did not approve of worship of himself.

Regarding Matthew 14:33, The Greek in matthew for “worship” is pro•sky•ne&#8242;o, which can also “used to designate the custom of prostrating oneself before a person and kissing his feet, the hem of his garment, the ground.

So when the disciples did this towards Jesus it was an act of obeisance rather than an act of worship. For e.g. Abraham in harmony with the custom of the time, did this act of obeisance toward people with whom he was doing business with. So when comparing that, we must understand that pro•sky•ne&#8242;o at times has to be only directed to the Father as Jesus said to do.

 

[NWL]

**BY feedm3** 1. Why did Jesus allow Thomas to Call him God?

Before Jesus death he told his apostle “..I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me..” (John 14:6) we also know Thomas had difficulty accepting that Jesus was who he was saying he was.

So when Paul exclaimed “...My Lord and my God!...” He said it in a way that could have been addressing both Jesus, and also God since Jesus was that direct link to him. For e.g when we pray we have to pray through Jesus as we already know, but if Jesus was standing in front of you, in the case if Thomas it would of been Just to speak to the Jesus and knowing that anything said would also be directed to the father since Jesus now served as that link.

**BY feedm3** 2. If Jehovah is ONLY ONE being, why is he referred to in plural form, Elohim? Which literally means "the Gods"?

The Bible account of creation is of “our” world’s creation and the Heavens, this doesn’t include creation in the universe or with other angelic creatures, proof of this is found in in Job;

(Job 38:4,7) “..Where did you happen to be when I founded the earth?..When the morning stars [Angels] joyfully cried out together, And all the sons of God [other Angels] began shouting in applause?..”

As you can clearly see Angels were there at the creation of the Earth... Since Jesus called himself “...The bright morning star...” (Revelation 22:16) and since also Jehovah creates all things through [Jesus] its logical to conclude that Jehovah was talking to Jesus and perhaps the Angels when he said “..let’s make man in our image..” hence the plural form.

Also bare in mind Elohim is not the name for God but a "title" which is used to describe those including Jesus that had Godlike responsibilities. For instance at Psalm 8:5, the angels are also referred to as ’elo&#8231;him&#8242;, as is confirmed by Paul’s quotation of the passage at Hebrews 2:6-8.

The word ’elo&#8231;him&#8242; is also used when referring to idol gods. Sometimes this plural form means simply “gods.” (Ex 12:12; 20:23)

**BY feedm3** 3. Why does Jesus take credit as our creator as well as everything else?

Jesus Doesn’t take credit, he never has, even when on earth he always directed his earlthy work to his father

(John 5:30) “..I cannot do a single thing of my own initiative..”

(John 14:28) “..the Father is greater than I am..”

Regarding Jesus being our creator you are incorrect with the assumption. The Bible says things were made “Through” Jesus, Jesus is also described as a “Master Worker” likening him being used by someone above him. Also note that if things were created “FOR HIM” that would mean there was a source by which things were being created for him, namely Jehovah his Father.

(Colossians 1:16) “..All [other] things have been created through him and for him..”

(Proverbs 8:30) “..then I [Jesus] came to be beside him as a master worker, and I came to be the one he was especially fond of day by day, I being glad before him all the time..”

**BY feedm3** 4. How can Jesus be eternal if he is not deity?

Firstly you are correct, Jesus is above the Angels, Jw’s believe that.

You cannot assume that since Jesus created the Angels and is “..before all [other] things..” this means he’s eternal, that’s ridiculous. The reason why Jesus is Before (“before” as in creation wise) all things is because he’s the “..Firstborn of all creation..” as col 1:15 says. So God made Jesus, then God through Jesus made Angels and other things, hence Jesus is before all things.

We can also conclude that Jesus didn’t do all the creating but was merely an agent since this is what scripture says about him “..When he [Jehovah] prepared the heavens I [Jesus] was there; when he decreed a circle upon the face of the watery deep..” (Proverbs 8:27)

Again and again you fail to see the point, that repeatedly its the Father that is ALONE the most High, its Jehovah who ALONE should be worshiped and Jehovah who is the ONLY true God which the Bible states. You sir are the one that is changing meaning of words, your the one that when the word ALONE is applied to a distinct person you apply it to Three people.

So if you could be so kind to show again;

1. That If Jesus is God why does he calls Jehovah the ONLY True GOD? (Without John 17:21 since it Doesn't apply - John 17:20-22)

2. Why Jesus says said to ONLY Worship Jehovah? (Without the, "he was worshiped before", since the correct rendering should be "obeisance" proved by Jesus own words in Luke 4:8)

3. Why do scriptures say that Jehovah ALONE is the Most High and not Jesus or the Holy Spirit. (Without the evasive action and also baring in mind that Psalms was in the old testament before your so called "Trinity" was taught or revealed to the Jews)

 

[Trax]

So if you could be so kind to show again;

1. That If Jesus is God why does he calls Jehovah the ONLY True GOD? (Without John 17:21 since it Doesn't apply - John 17:20-22)

2. Why Jesus says said to ONLY Worship Jehovah? (Without the, "he was worshiped before", since the correct rendering should be "obeisance" proved by Jesus own words in Luke 4:8)

3. Why do scriptures say that Jehovah ALONE is the Most High and not Jesus or the Holy Spirit. (Without the evasive action and also baring in mind that Psalms was in the old testament before your so called "Trinity" was taught or revealed to the Jews)

[1.]
Joh 4:10 Jesus answered and said unto her, If thou knewest the gift of God, and who it is that saith to thee, Give me to drink; thou wouldest have asked of him, and he would have given thee living water.

Jer 2:12-13 Be astonished, O ye heavens, at this, and be horribly afraid, be ye very desolate, saith the LORD (Jehovah). (13) For my people have committed two evils; they have forsaken me the fountain of living waters, and hewed them out cisterns, broken cisterns, that can hold no water.

[2.]
Psa 89:8-9 O LORD (Jehovah) God of hosts, who is a strong LORD like unto thee? or to thy faithfulness round about thee? (9) Thou rulest the raging of the sea: when the waves thereof arise, thou stillest them.

Mat 8:26-27 And he saith unto them, Why are ye fearful, O ye of little faith? Then he arose, and rebuked the winds and the sea; and there was a great calm. (27) But the men marvelled, saying, What manner of man is this, that even the winds and the sea obey him!


[3.]
Eze 34:11-12 For thus saith the Lord GOD (variation of Jehovah); Behold, I, even I, will both search my sheep, and seek them out. (12) As a shepherd seeketh out his flock in the day that he is among his sheep that are scattered; so will I seek out my sheep, and will deliver them out of all places where they have been scattered in the cloudy and dark day.

Joh 10:14 I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine.


1. Why is Jesus claiming He can give something that only Jehovah can give?
2. Why is Jesus doing something that only Jehovah does?
3. How many claims of Jehovah does Jesus have to make? (Answer, He just has to do it once.
And I showed three.)

 

[DiscipleDave]

Greetings to all,

Would like to add my comment if i may. The flesh that was born of Mary, who we call Jesus is of the Earth, the Body is of the Earth, the spirit that was in the body of Jesus has always been, even before the Earth was ever created or humans ever even thought of. Jesus is the Son of God and has been for eternity. Jesus in His Glorified body has always existed, He became spirit, and entered into the fetus who was born Jesus Christ, He became a human, by being born as a human being, born of the flesh, that is from the Earth. But He is spirit, not the human flesh. The human flesh desires to sin, it is tempted to commit sin. Jesus Himself was tempted to sin, when satan tempted Him. It is also written that Jesus was tempted in all things that we also are tempted, yet He did not sin when He was tempted, He was tempted because He was in the human flesh, which is weak, and subject to temptations because the flesh is of the Earth, and is not the glorified body, which is much like the flesh of the Earth, except it is not bound to laws of physics which all flesh on the Earth is subject too. When Christ comes, we too will receive our Glorified bodies (like Angels) these bodies are not made of material from the Earth, but made up of materials from Heaven, they are not subject to the laws of the Earth (gravity, obstacles (wall and such), limited brain activity, etc. .. .. ) anything created from the earth, is bound to the laws of the Earth, anything created by the Heavens, is not bound by anything at all.
Jesus is God, always has been, even before the Earth was created, Jesus Was, Is, and Always will be the Son of God, and the Son is even as the Father, they are God. The Holy Ghost is Understanding and Wisdom, and is God also. They are God. Just because God came down to the created Earth, and became one of His creations, by becoming human, He is still God.

There is a spirit in you too, that spirit has always existed, it was not born when you were born, it was before you were even born, it existed even before the Earth was created. The spirit that is in you cannot die, it will either go to Heaven for eternity or banished from Heaven for eternity, one or the other. But your flesh that you have right now is of the Earth, and will return to the Earth where it came from, your spirit will receive a Glorified body, yes it can be flesh and blood, like the Angels that were heading to Sodom to destroy it, sat under a tree for shade and ate a meal with Abraham, they looked like men, and they ate food, and sat in the shade, they were in their Glorified bodies, not bodies from the Earth, but bodies from Heaven. We too will have these bodies which we have had before become human flesh. Please read these three articles for more in depth information that God has revealed to me, to reveal to you.

Meaning of life
Spirit within
Where after death

^i^

 

[feedm3]

First of all it&#8217;s silly for you to use John 17:21 to back up your claim that Jesus and Jehovah are one, for two reason.

No it's not, because when Jesus uses this, he is speaking of equality. When the Pharisees accused him of making himself equal with God, it was not a false accusation.

Though I see your reasoning behind Jn 17, I should have used a better example, seeing he does say we are one as well. So I will find another sense their are many.

Your answer, &#8220;..Because He is..&#8221; to my question, &#8220;If Jesus is God why does He call Jehovah the ONLY True GOD &#8220; will no suffice. You overlook scripture without any hesitation, it&#8217;s laughable. It&#8217;s contradictory for Jesus who Is God to call his co-equal partner the ONLY TRUE GOD, do you know what ONLY means??

Sure I know what Only means, and sense you are so focused on words, then lets go back to Col 1.

Do you know what "all things" means? In heaven and in earth - ALL things.

Can you explain to me how Jesus created ALL things, if he did not exist at one point and time?

As for Isaiah preparing the way for Jehovah its quite simple, as you can see in Malachi, Jesus is Gods Messenger, now imagine a King wants to send a message to a neighboring country and the country receiving the message says &#8220;the neighboring King Is going to give me a message, go and prepare the way&#8221; but then now imagine if the receivers of the message get the letter and conclude that the messenger who was sent by the King to deliver the message is the King himself?? Of course not!! Its ludicrous!! This is what you&#8217;ve done!!

You mean, It could mean.... if you look at this way.....Here below is my JW parphrase because we love them so much!

Thats crazy. He prepared the way for me - John the baptist prepared the way for Jesus 1+1=2.

NO matter how much you want to paraphrase it like yo do the entire Bible, I dont need it paraphrased.

Moving on, the fact that Jesus quoted &#8220;..It is Jehovah your God you must worship, and it is to him alone you must render sacred service..&#8221; shows that he did not approve of worship of himself.

So he did not approve it, but allowed it? Why did he not stop people from doing so?

Your trying to tell me I am silly, at the same time telling me Jesus allowed people to sin and not say anything?

Regarding Matthew 14:33, The Greek in matthew for &#8220;worship&#8221; is pro&#8226;sky&#8226;ne&#8242;o, which can also &#8220;used to designate the custom of prostrating oneself before a person and kissing his feet, the hem of his garment, the ground.

Here we go, "which can also mean", :if you look it up in our bible", if you strech your imgaination">...no thanks dont need to.

If fact lets look at your claim here:

Proskyneio:
used 60 times in the Bible. Show me one of these that do NOT mean worship in it's normal sense:
worship, 35
Mat_2:2, Mat_4:8-10 (3), Luk_4:7-8 (2), Joh_4:20-24 (8), Joh_12:20, Act_7:43, Act_8:27, Act_24:11, 1Co_14:25, Heb_1:6, Rev_4:9-10 (2), Rev_9:20, Rev_11:1, Rev_13:8, Rev_13:12, Rev_13:15, Rev_14:7, Rev_14:9, Rev_14:11, Rev_15:4, Rev_19:10 (2), Rev_22:8-9 (2)
worshipped, 24
Mat_2:11, Mat_8:2, Mat_9:18, Mat_14:33, Mat_18:25-26 (2), Mat_28:9, Mat_28:17, Mar_5:6, Mar_15:19, Luk_24:52, Joh_4:20, Joh_9:38, Act_10:25, Heb_11:21, Rev_5:14, Rev_7:11, Rev_11:16, Rev_13:4 (2), Rev_16:2, Rev_19:4, Rev_19:20, Rev_20:4
worshipping, 1
Mat_20:20

In fact many here are discerning what was given to Jesus:

Mat 8:1 When he was come down from the mountain, great multitudes followed him.
Mat 8:2 And, behold, there came a leper and worshiped him, saying, Lord, if thou wilt, thou canst make me clean.
Mat 8:3 And Jesus put forth his hand, and touched him, saying, I will; be thou clean. And immediately his leprosy was cleansed.

Wait!!! What???? A man came and did to Jesus what he did not approve and he healed him instead of correcting him???

Lol, are you serious? He allowed this man to worship him. Oh wait this word can also mean, if you look it up in some other book somewhere else....right?? Because I cant find it ONCE used in the BIble i the sense your tying to force on it.

See where your JW cocky attitude gets you? It gets you being silly, and teaching that JEsus healed people who were falsely worshiping him, in sin.

So when the disciples did this towards Jesus it was an act of obeisance rather than an act of worship. For e.g. Abraham in harmony with the custom of the time, did this act of obeisance toward people with whom he was doing business with. So when comparing that, we must understand that pro&#8226;sky&#8226;ne&#8242;o at times has to be only directed to the Father as Jesus said to do.

NO you need to show an example, not just say so because that's what you found on Google. Show it.

All you did here was make up another definition, and now you have another example, and this time it's not a disciple, and its the same word.

Let me guess, another definition for this one.

Ill wait and see if you can provide just ONE example of this word being used as you say.

I have provided 60 for you, can you give me ONE?

 

[feedm3]

Before Jesus death he told his apostle &#8220;..I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me..&#8221; (John 14:6) we also know Thomas had difficulty accepting that Jesus was who he was saying he was.

So now your saying because Thomas had dificulty he just started calling Jesus God on his own accord, yet Jesus did not correct him either??? LOL Dude no one in the right mind will swallow this. ONly those who want to change the Bible to fit their doctrine, instead of doctrine to fit the Bible.

So when Paul exclaimed &#8220;...My Lord and my God!...&#8221; He said it in a way that could have been addressing both Jesus, and also God since Jesus was that direct link to him.

Told you. That's all your going to agrue in your points. "He could have been". "If you will look at this way", If you can streach your imagination and ignore; the simple to understand Phrases, then it's possible he was....."

NOpe. Again, dont need to look at your way. It's easy enough to undertand.

For e.g when we pray we have to pray through Jesus as we already know, but if Jesus was standing in front of you, in the case if Thomas it would of been Just to speak to the Jesus and knowing that anything said would also be directed to the father since Jesus now served as that link.

And to the 2nd part. What if senario that proves or supports Abouslty nothing.

The Bible account of creation is of &#8220;our&#8221; world&#8217;s creation and the Heavens, this doesn&#8217;t include creation in the universe or with other angelic creatures, proof of this is found in in Job;
(Job 38:4,7) &#8220;..Where did you happen to be when I founded the earth?..When the morning stars [Angels] joyfully cried out together, And all the sons of God [other Angels] began shouting in applause?..&#8221;

As you can clearly see Angels were there at the creation of the Earth... Since Jesus called himself &#8220;...The bright morning star...&#8221; (Revelation 22:16) and since also Jehovah creates all things through [Jesus] its logical to conclude that Jehovah was talking to Jesus and perhaps the Angels when he said &#8220;..let&#8217;s make man in our image..&#8221; hence the plural form.

is it really logical, taking figuative books like Job to prove a literal creation? NO

Is it logical to assume that their was "NOTHING before him" means their actually was something?

Is it logical to assume or conclude that ALL thing in heaven and in earth" really mean somethig created "through" and not "BY" him?

Also bare in mind Elohim is not the name for God but a "title" which is used to describe those including Jesus that had Godlike responsibilities. For instance at Psalm 8:5, the angels are also referred to as &#8217;elo&#8231;him&#8242;, as is confirmed by Paul&#8217;s quotation of the passage at Hebrews 2:6-8.

Again Proof. You saying does not prove anything. I can show you 1000 passages were Elohim means God in plural form.

Can you show me ONE?

Now your going to take Psalms, and it's context, and apply it to every time you find teh word? So really the angels created the heaven's and the earth. Okay then. See how far you get with that one.

The word &#8217;elo&#8231;him&#8242; is also used when referring to idol gods. Sometimes this plural form means simply &#8220;gods.&#8221; (Ex 12:12; 20:23)

So then angels and Idol God's made the everything in Gen 1:1 - Okay.

Jesus Doesn&#8217;t take credit, he never has, even when on earth he always directed his earlthy work to his father

(John 5:30) &#8220;..I cannot do a single thing of my own initiative..&#8221;

(John 14:28) &#8220;..the Father is greater than I am..&#8221;

Yup, that's because he was doing the Father's will, he was the one who had to submit to human form "epmtying himself" and losing part of what he had "before the world began".

Regarding Jesus being our creator you are incorrect with the assumption. The Bible says things were made &#8220;Through&#8221; Jesus, Jesus is also described as a &#8220;Master Worker&#8221; likening him being used by someone above him. Also note that if things were created &#8220;FOR HIM&#8221; that would mean there was a source by which things were being created for him, namely Jehovah his Father.

(Colossians 1:16) &#8220;..All [other] things have been created through him and for him..&#8221;

What did you think I was not going to catch that?

Can you show me ONE greek MS that has "other" inserted in the text?

If you can please do. If you cannot, then Why are you pasting something you know is not there?

And I have no problem with the Translations that say "through him" or "by Hin" because they are synonymous. If created through him, then through his work, or by his work either way fine with me.

I am focused on ALL not by or thourth. ALL Thing in HEAVEN AND IN EARTH
He is before ALL THINGS

Stop trying beat around the subject and deal with the argument at hand.


I see the base of all rest of your arguements below are on the "other" things. So we need to get his proved one way or another.

Show that mss. with "{other}" please. I am really waiting.