Jesus comes immediately AFTER the tribulation, there is no Left Behind Secret Rapture=Stop causing fear.

[John146]

As far as I can tell, the portion of the body of Christ who will be here for the GT are church members alive on Earth. Deceased people in the body of Christ are with the Lord and will not be here for it. When Jesus returns after the GT He will bring the deceased saints with Him to receive a resurrected body. After they receive a resurrected body, we will all together be lifted up to meet Jesus in the air.

That's what I gather from 1 Thessalonians 4.

What is the purpose of allowing only part of Christ’s body to go through Jacob’s Trouble? Do you believe the Lord will protect His body during this time?

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

No it isnt.
Far from it.
It says "BEFORE THE FLOOD"
THEN...."ONE TAKEN/LEFT"
THEN WATCH AND BE READY.
Be ready to be left????

A few things (perhaps you missed these in that post you quoted of mine, and an earlier post of mine in this thread):

--regarding the "WATCH [G1127]" word, as used in a context addressed to "the Church which is His body," see bottom part of my Post #4 in this thread: https://christianchat.com/threads/j...rapture-stop-causing-fear.199566/post-4580609 ;

--regarding your "BE READY" phrase (Matt24:44), I pointed out in that post you quoted of mine: this passage (Matt24:42-51) is parallel with Luke 12:36-37,38,40,42-44,45-48 the passage stating (v.36) "when he will RETURN FROM the wedding" (i.e. as an ALREADY-WED Bridegroom, by that point!)... THEN the meal [G347] (v.37)... (aka the earthly MK age);

--I've stated that "Noah and crew" are a "type" of those saints coming through the Trib yrs (and afterward "[ACTIVELY] FILLED the earth"--see again Dan2:35c compared with Gen9:1--and note "as the days of Noah were, SO SHALL also..."); whereas "Enoch" (ONE MAN) is a "type" of "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY"... translated (or 'caught up' to the meeting of the Lord IN THE AIR) BEFORE the flood judgment came upon the earth;

--I've pointed out the phrases (in the parallel passages... Matt24:43 and Lk12:38[35]) about the "NIGHT WATCHES" [and "LAMPS LIT"], that this pertains to the "IN THE NIGHT" time period that 1Th5:2-3 refers to as being in play at the ARRIVAL of the "DOTL" earthly time-period (we commonly call the Tribulation period), and that the "LAMPS LIT" issue (per OT references) were "lighted AT EVEN [/SUNDOWN / twilight]"... and I've already mentioned in past posts that the phrase (pertaining to "our Rapture") "in the twinkling of an eye" refers to "the exact moment when one day turns into the next, when the sun is 8-degrees below the horizon, AT SUNDOWN"--i.e. WE do not step ONE FOOT INTO "the DOTL" time period (aka the TRIB yrs, aka "IN THE NIGHT"... *we* have NOTHING TO DO with the "NIGHT WATCHES," those IN the Trib do! ["the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY" will have already been 100% ("ALL") raptured/snatched out PRIOR to that time-period's commencing... NO BODY PARTS left behind!! ]);

--I could say much more, but few ppl read long posts... = )

Not only that, but the same ratio of 50% is raptured as in the virgin parable.

( seems to me, if i remember correctly, you also mis apply that dynamic also and the marriage supper)

Read this and explain how those taken to judgement BEFORE THE FLOOD/TRIB are told to watch and be ready. Or how in the world the goodman of the house has half of it removed to judgement. And is told he would not have had it happen if he watched and was ready.???

see again my Post #4 at link, above

40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.
43 But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up.

Nope
You painted yourself in a corner.

I think not; and in view of what I've put in the above portion (and in many other posts), I believe it is you that have, my dear Abs... but again, you have no problem embracing the faulty "partial-rapture theory" (and your mistakenly having Jesus' intentions be to "MARRY" 10 or 5 "virginS [PLURAL]" instead of the "ONE" 2Cor11:2! "A CHASTE VIRGIN [SINGULAR]"), and this being due to your mis-applying the passages I've pointed out, above, among a number of others...



Enjoy your day, Abs. = )

 

[Ahwatukee]

I think that's a misunderstanding of scripture on the part of the pre-trib. You are right that the church is not appointed to wrath. That's because God's wrath does not begin until after the tribulation ends and the church has been raptured. It's very simple once you're able to see the truth.

Your moving of God's wrath just allows you to put the church into that time period. However I know that you did not come up with this, because it is a teaching that I have encountered and have contended with many times. Understand then that the tribulation period is God's tribulation, God's wrath? You're not the first one to attempt to separate the tribulation from God's wrath, as though they were separate events. They are not! They are just names for the same time period which is seven years in length. As soon as the church is gathered, following that will be the tribulation period, the time of God's wrath, including everything that takes place within it.

First off, the great tribulation itself is not God's wrath. The persecution the world will face in the great tribulation is Satan's wrath:

Revelation 12:12
12Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabitants of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knows that he hath but a short time.

You also got this from the teachings of men, either from what you have read or heard because I have contended with this teaching many times that it is Satan's wrath. Satan may get angry during that time, but it is within God's wrath that He does so. That time period is 'The Day of the Lord.' Everything that takes place during that time period is a part of God's wrath. Right up to the 7th bowl judgment.

In the scripture above, Satan and his angels are cast out of heaven and are restricted to the earth, which is the result of God's 7th trumpet and 3rd woe. So no, it is not Satan's wrath, but his being cast out of heaven is a result of God's wrath and the process of the authority of the earth returning to God and His Christ. The reason that Satan will be angry is because when he is cast down to the earth, it will be in the middle of the seven years and from that time he will know that he only has 3 1/2 years left before the Lord returns to the earth and is thrown into the Abyss for a thousand years, as Rev.20:1-3 makes clear. Therefore, just because Satan gets mad during God's time of wrath, does not make it Satan's wrath. That is a false assumption.

Stop reading these books and watching YouTube full of this junk! For these are false teachers that you are getting this information from, just as it was prophesied.

You'll notice the correlation between Matthew 24:29 and Revelation 6:12-13:

Matthew 24:29
29Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

Revelation 6:12-13
12And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood; 13And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.
14And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.

Jesus predicted that immediately after the tribulation the sun will darken (solar eclipse), the moon will darken to a blood color (lunar eclipse) and the "stars will fall from heaven."

The 6th Seal clearly states it is the beginning of the day of God's wrath:

Revelation 6:16-17
16And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: 17For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

Conclusively, the signs that Jesus said will come after the tribulation appear in the 6th Seal. By the time Jesus returns everyone who will be raptured will be raptured and the lost will be left behind to face God's wrath.

I can understand why you got to where you did, but I think once you actually examine what the scripture say you'll find the truth.

Again, we agree that we aren't appointed to God's wrath. We won't face God's wrath in any way.

Yeah, I can understand why you would compare Matt.24:29 to the 6th seal. I've always been a searcher of God's word and that never set well with me. For one thing, there are some subtle differences between the two:

Matthew---------------------------------------------------------- 6th Seal

No Earthquake --------------------------------------------- Great Earthquake

Sun Darkened ---------------------------------------------- Sun Darkened

Moon Darkened ------------------------------------------- Moon turned Blood Red

Stars fall to the earth ------------------------------------ Stars fall to the earth

======================================================================

The biggest problem is that Matt.24:29-31 is right when the Lord returns to the earth to end the age. If we combine Matt.24:29-31 with Revelation 19:11-21, which are both siting the Lord's' return to the earth to end the age, then this is when the beast and the false prophet will be captured and cast alive into the lake of fire, the wicked will be killed by the Lord and Satan will be shut up in the Abyss for a thousand years, information which is just not mentioned in Matt.24:29-31.

At that time according Matt.24:31, He sends out His angels and they go and gather the elect from the four corners of the earth. Those being gathered would not be the church, but Israel and those great tribulation saints who will have made it alive through the entire tribulation period. These are the ones who will repopulate the earth during the millennial kingdom. Since the end of the age takes place right there at Matt.24:29-31 there would be no room for the trumpets and bowl judgements of wrath to take place, because when Jesus returns at that time it ends God's wrath and will end the age and is when the Lord will establish His millennial kingdom. Therefore there would be no room for the other plagues of wrath.

The conclusion then, is that though Matt.24:29 and the 6th seal sound similar, they are not the same event for those reasons. One will take place at the 6th seal and Matt.24:29-31 will take place as the Lord is returning to the earth.

I don't make any claims or teach anything unless I've gone through everything. So, you're not bringing up anything that I haven't already encountered, considered and studied. In other words, your not going to surprise me with anything, as though I missed something.

One of the other reasons that you are claiming that the wrath begins after the opening of the 6th seal, is because you read it or heard it from the teachings of men. This is another common false teaching that is out in the world.

The announcement that "the great day of their wrath has come and who can endure it" moved people to conclude that the opening of the 6th seal was the starting point of God's wrath, which is false. It is a general announcement of what has already taken place and what is yet to follow, which includes the previous seals that will have been opened and their fatalities, as well as the plagues of wrath that are to follow the announcement. We also have the same announcement that 'God's wrath has come' at the sounding of the 7th trumpet:

"The nations were enraged, and Your wrath has come" - Rev.11:18

Therefore, if we are to use the same reasoning that God's wrath only begins after the opening of the 6th seal because of the announcement, then we would have to apply the same conclusion at the sounding of the 7th trumpet as well, which would also be a false conclusion. As I said, just as at the 6th seal, so it is with the announcement at the sounding of the 7th trumpet. It is a general announcement of what is taking place on the earth as a whole, which includes all of the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments. Simply stated, the announcement at the 6th seal is not the starting point for God's wrath. You have to keep in mind that it is the Lamb/Jesus who is opening the seals and is therefore responsible for all of the fatalities that follow, which includes seals 1 thru 5 as well.

Leave those false teachings and do your own studies and come to your own conclusions, friend. Get on board with the truth!

 

[Rondonmon]

I think that's a misunderstanding of scripture on the part of the pre-trib. You are right that the church is not appointed to wrath. That's because God's wrath does not begin until after the tribulation ends and the church has been raptured. It's very simple once you're able to see the truth.

Your understanding of both the timing and the wrath is off here brother.

Jesus told us all-time on this heart will be troubles, so the Church Age is 2000 years of "TROUBLES" Jesus' words not mine. The 70th week will be troubles and the 3.5 years will be troubles. Thus we have three periods of troubles, the Church Age, the 70th week, and the 3.5 years of greatest ever troubles seen.

God describes those who came out of the Church Age troubles in Rev. 7:9-17 as coming out of the Great (as in 2000 is greater than 7 or 2000>7) tribulation. So, God can describe different things as GREAT, he's not pigeonholed by our preconceived conceptions. There can be both a GREATEST EVER TROUBLES and the GREATEST TIME PERIOD, and of course, both can be measured as Greatest ever.

The whole 70th week is troubles. The Greatest ever troubles begin at the mid-way point with the asteroid hitting in Rev. 8. Thus God's Wrath starts at the exact midpoint and lasts for 1260 days. Satan is a great strategist, he tells the Anti-Christ to WAIT for this asteroid strike which takes out 1/3 of the World (I think it takes out the USA and hits just off the California Coast and devastated the Pacific Realm area. Once this hits, then Satan tells this Anti-Christ o GO FORTH Conquering. The Seals are thus are speaking about the exact same timeframe, Seal 6 is God's coming Wrath which lasts 3.5 years, and the Coming Anti-Christ in Seals 1-5 rules fr 42 months also, exactly paralleling God's Wrath, thus Seal one has him conquering, seal 2 has Wars, seal 3 has famine, seal 4 has death/sickness and seal 5 show his Martyrs. Each of these seals happens over the same 42 months and are all the Anti-Christ coming actions, not actual actions themselves.

Of course, God's Wrath is troubles to the Jews, only 1/3 repent, and they will have to reside in the Mountains which is troubles in itself, 3-5 million Jews living for 3.5 yers in the wilderness is TROUBLES !! The 2/3 who do not repent will also be in TROUBLES. It is Israel or Jacobs Troubles. The truth is, the Beast can not form while the Church is in Heaven, and the Beast makes a 7-year agreement with Israel and THE MANY right after the Rapture. When we separate the Church and Israel we might understand all ths.

Jesus predicted that immediately after the tribulation the sun will darken (solar eclipse), the moon will darken to a blood color (lunar eclipse) and the "stars will fall from heaven."

The 6th Seal clearly states it is the beginning of the day of God's wrath:

Revelation 6:16-17
16And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: 17For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

This is Jesus prophesying, why do you think these events only happen after the Fourth Trump? I simply can't understand why people can't recognize that the 7 Seals LOCK UP the Scroll until all 7 are off. It's like a closet door with 7 locks, you can't look inside until all 7 locks are off, in spite of what we always thought.



How is the above scroll of judgments being read until all 7 seals are off?

Seals 1-5 is Jesus Prophesying what the Anti-Chrsts 42-month reign will soon bring to mankind when the Scroll is OPENED. He Conquers, Brings War, which brings Famine, which brings Death/Sickness/Grave. And he also Martyrs those Saints who come to Christ after the Rapture.

With Seal 6 Jesus announces God's Wrath is about to fall, te Rev. 8 Trumps are all one asteroid strike, Trump #1 is Fire, Trump # 2 the IMPACT, Trump #3 is the Nuclear like fallout (WORMWOOD) and Trump #4 is the EFFECTS or all the Smoke blotting out the worlds light from the Sun and Mon by 1/3. The Seals are Jesus prophesying what the Trumpet Judgments will bring, as soon as all 7 Seaksare taken off the Judgment Scroll.

That is why the 7th Seal is over in chapter 8 with the Trumpets !! That is why there is SILENCE in Heaven for 30 minutes, Jesus doesn't have t prophesy anymore, Judgment is now upon the whole world !! All that needs to be done now is to unroll the scroll and bring forth the Judgments (The Seven Angels are seen readying the Trumpet Judgments in Heaven). If you take 7 locks off of a door and excitedly tell him after each lock about the great things behind the door, after lock number 6, you kee describing what your friend is about to see, but after lock number 7 do you keep yacking, or do you just stay silent and OPEN THE DOOR?

I can understand people not seeing this themselves, but once this has been explained to people, I can't for the life of me understand why they can't grasp this simple concept !! Well, I do, it is what God showed me 5 or so years ago when I asked Him in prayer why we could not understand in unison as a Church what Babylon was, the Harlot was, the 144,000 is, etc. and He was like "Ron, you guys already know everything". Thus, we have a hard timing admitting our errors, or that we are wrong, men are prideful via our Sin Nature, even when we become Christians.

Conclusively, the signs that Jesus said will come after the tribulation appear in the 6th Seal. By the time Jesus returns everyone who will be raptured will be raptured and the lost will be left behind to face God's wrath.

I can understand why you got to where you did, but I think once you actually examine what the scripture say you'll find the truth.

And Jesus was speaking to the Jews he was sent to minister unto, and 90 percent will not except the Messiah before the Rapture, but 1/3 will accept him as their Messiah during the 70th week, so if you want to speak to whom your target audience is (Jesus stated he was sent to minister ONLY to the Jewish peoples) then wouldn't you be talking about the Jews who repent during the 70th week, thus they will indeed see the Sun and Moon go dark, etc., etc. and Jesus will indeed return to save those ELECT after this point in time. But he of course does so with the Church, some of whom will be Jewish Christians of course.

Once you do not make the Rapture (Marriage) there will be no Rapture, you will be raised and judged AFTER Jesus' return as Rev. 20:4 shows us, or you will be protected in the wilderness as Rev, 12 shows us (Jews are protected).

People conflate everything, they just can't comprehend there being Saints who get Raptured, and Saints who come to the Lord after the Rapture, I for the life of me can't understand this thinking, except they are in lockdown mode on the scripture as they learned them. God told me 5 years ago, "Ron, you guys already know it all" Jesus told the Pharisees you heed Men's Traditions, Jesus picked UNLEARNED men as his disciples. All this adds up to the same thing, men need to stop thinking and start asking God for answers, we mess up everything we do. LOL

 

[Rondonmon]

The body of Christ is a mystery at this point and is not mentioned in Matthew 24.

Except Jesus is called unto the Jews, to minister unto them. Thus when they ask him their plight, Jesus gives both answers but doesn't expound on what it means, so much so they don't have it in the right order, because they do not understand it. Thus they have Matt. 24:29-31 before the Rapture verses, Matt. 24:36-51. One will be TAKEN and one will be LEFT. But in verses 29-31, that is Jesus returning, and via Rev. 19 we know the Church is with him when he returns.

To give the info doesn't mean he explained it to them. He explained it to Paul.

 

[Ahwatukee]

Not quite, it's about the Jews' future, but we must understand, Jews grow together as a Nation with the wicked tares AND are a part of the Church/Bride of Christ also. So, Jesus gives us both accounts in Matt. 24, he gives us the majority of the Jewish people's overall plight, where 1/3 will repent and thus when Jesus returns they are THE ELECT being saved (the Gentile Remnant Church will all be Martyred for the most part) as Jesus returns in verses 29-31. Then in verses 36-51 we see Jesus gives the Jews who are Christians or Messianic Jews plight, they will be Raptured as in ONE TAKEN and ONE LEFT.

Matthew 25 is a deeper look into the coming Marriage in Heaven. So, Jews will both be saved by Jesus in the Tribulation, and before the tribulation, just like Gentiles.

Only the Jews who believe in Christ are a part of the church. God will be dealing with the unbelieving nation of Israel during the tribulation/great tribulation period. These do not belong to the church. They are a separate dispensation. A different program. The church is not present during Matt.24, as it is a summary of the time of God's wrath, with Matt.24:15 being the middle mark of that seven years where according to Daniel 9:27 is when the abomination is set up. During this time God's wrath via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments will also be taking place, which the church is not appointed to suffer. Therefore we cannot be on the earth during the time of God's wrath, which the events of Matt.24 are depicting.

 

[Runningman]

Your understanding of both the timing and the wrath is off here brother.

Jesus told us all-time on this heart will be troubles, so the Church Age is 2000 years of "TROUBLES" Jesus' words not mine. The 70th week will be troubles and the 3.5 years will be troubles. Thus we have three periods of troubles, the Church Age, the 70th week, and the 3.5 years of greatest ever troubles seen.

God describes those who came out of the Church Age troubles in Rev. 7:9-17 as coming out of the Great (as in 2000 is greater than 7 or 2000>7) tribulation. So, God can describe different things as GREAT, he's not pigeonholed by our preconceived conceptions. There can be both a GREATEST EVER TROUBLES and the GREATEST TIME PERIOD, and of course, both can be measured as Greatest ever.

The whole 70th week is troubles. The Greatest ever troubles begin at the mid-way point with the asteroid hitting in Rev. 8. Thus God's Wrath starts at the exact midpoint and lasts for 1260 days. Satan is a great strategist, he tells the Anti-Christ to WAIT for this asteroid strike which takes out 1/3 of the World (I think it takes out the USA and hits just off the California Coast and devastated the Pacific Realm area. Once this hits, then Satan tells this Anti-Christ o GO FORTH Conquering. The Seals are thus are speaking about the exact same timeframe, Seal 6 is God's coming Wrath which lasts 3.5 years, and the Coming Anti-Christ in Seals 1-5 rules fr 42 months also, exactly paralleling God's Wrath, thus Seal one has him conquering, seal 2 has Wars, seal 3 has famine, seal 4 has death/sickness and seal 5 show his Martyrs. Each of these seals happens over the same 42 months and are all the Anti-Christ coming actions, not actual actions themselves.

Of course, God's Wrath is troubles to the Jews, only 1/3 repent, and they will have to reside in the Mountains which is troubles in itself, 3-5 million Jews living for 3.5 yers in the wilderness is TROUBLES !! The 2/3 who do not repent will also be in TROUBLES. It is Israel or Jacobs Troubles. The truth is, the Beast can not form while the Church is in Heaven, and the Beast makes a 7-year agreement with Israel and THE MANY right after the Rapture. When we separate the Church and Israel we might understand all ths.



This is Jesus prophesying, why do you think these events only happen after the Fourth Trump? I simply can't understand why people can't recognize that the 7 Seals LOCK UP the Scroll until all 7 are off. It's like a closet door with 7 locks, you can't look inside until all 7 locks are off, in spite of what we always thought.

View attachment 228717

How is the above scroll of judgments being read until all 7 seals are off?

Seals 1-5 is Jesus Prophesying what the Anti-Chrsts 42-month reign will soon bring to mankind when the Scroll is OPENED. He Conquers, Brings War, which brings Famine, which brings Death/Sickness/Grave. And he also Martyrs those Saints who come to Christ after the Rapture.

With Seal 6 Jesus announces God's Wrath is about to fall, te Rev. 8 Trumps are all one asteroid strike, Trump #1 is Fire, Trump # 2 the IMPACT, Trump #3 is the Nuclear like fallout (WORMWOOD) and Trump #4 is the EFFECTS or all the Smoke blotting out the worlds light from the Sun and Mon by 1/3. The Seals are Jesus prophesying what the Trumpet Judgments will bring, as soon as all 7 Seaksare taken off the Judgment Scroll.

That is why the 7th Seal is over in chapter 8 with the Trumpets !! That is why there is SILENCE in Heaven for 30 minutes, Jesus doesn't have t prophesy anymore, Judgment is now upon the whole world !! All that needs to be done now is to unroll the scroll and bring forth the Judgments (The Seven Angels are seen readying the Trumpet Judgments in Heaven). If you take 7 locks off of a door and excitedly tell him after each lock about the great things behind the door, after lock number 6, you kee describing what your friend is about to see, but after lock number 7 do you keep yacking, or do you just stay silent and OPEN THE DOOR?

I can understand people not seeing this themselves, but once this has been explained to people, I can't for the life of me understand why they can't grasp this simple concept !! Well, I do, it is what God showed me 5 or so years ago when I asked Him in prayer why we could not understand in unison as a Church what Babylon was, the Harlot was, the 144,000 is, etc. and He was like "Ron, you guys already know everything". Thus, we have a hard timing admitting our errors, or that we are wrong, men are prideful via our Sin Nature, even when we become Christians.


And Jesus was speaking to the Jews he was sent to minister unto, and 90 percent will not except the Messiah before the Rapture, but 1/3 will accept him as their Messiah during the 70th week, so if you want to speak to whom your target audience is (Jesus stated he was sent to minister ONLY to the Jewish peoples) then wouldn't you be talking about the Jews who repent during the 70th week, thus they will indeed see the Sun and Moon go dark, etc., etc. and Jesus will indeed return to save those ELECT after this point in time. But he of course does so with the Church, some of whom will be Jewish Christians of course.

Once you do not make the Rapture (Marriage) there will be no Rapture, you will be raised and judged AFTER Jesus' return as Rev. 20:4 shows us, or you will be protected in the wilderness as Rev, 12 shows us (Jews are protected).

People conflate everything, they just can't comprehend there being Saints who get Raptured, and Saints who come to the Lord after the Rapture, I for the life of me can't understand this thinking, except they are in lockdown mode on the scripture as they learned them. God told me 5 years ago, "Ron, you guys already know it all" Jesus told the Pharisees you heed Men's Traditions, Jesus picked UNLEARNED men as his disciples. All this adds up to the same thing, men need to stop thinking and start asking God for answers, we mess up everything we do. LOL

Thanks. I'll take another look at it and pray about it and see if I can grasp what you're trying to say.

 

[Ahwatukee]

1Th 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
1Th 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.(second coming reference)

Your "second coming reference" is assumption on your part. 1 Thess.4:14 is saying that Jesus will be bringing with Him from heaven the Spirits of those who have died in him and who will be reunited with their immortal and resurrected bodies. 1 Thess.4:16-17 states that we will be caught up in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. It says nothing about coming back down to the earth. The Lord will be bringing with Him those spirits from heaven so that they can receive their immortal and glorified bodies that will be resurrecting at that time. Once the dead and the living are caught up, God's wrath will follow on the earth. In support of this, we have John 14:1-3

"In My Father’s house are many rooms. If it were not so, would I have told you that I am going there to prepare a place for you? And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and welcome you into My presence, so that you also may be where I am.

John 14:1-3 is the Lord's promise and 1 Thess.4:16-17 is the actual event that takes place when the Lord comes to get us to take us back to the Father's house to those places that He went to prepare for us.

1Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord (second coming reference) shall not prevent them which are asleep.
1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven (second coming reference) with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: (the resurrection of the dead in Christ)
1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. (the rapture)

The resurrection only happens at the second coming and the second coming can only happen after the trib has ended, and since the verses tell us the rapture happens AFTER the resurrection and second coming means these verses decisively prove the rapture is post-trib not pre-trib.

It's that simple.

Christ also spoke of the rapture but used the wording of saints being gathered together, and no surprise, placed it after the end of the Great Tribulation.

It's not that simple! Because by claiming that the gathering of the church takes place at the second coming, i.e. when the Lord returns to the earth to end the age, it would put the living church through the entire wrath of God, which scripture makes clear we are not appointed to suffer. So you are not including that scriptural information in your conclusion.

Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation (great tribulation has ended) of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming (second coming reference) in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Mat 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect (*another way to speak of the Rapture) from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Matthew 24:31 is not representing the gathering of the church, but is when the angels will go throughout the earth and gather the righteous who will have made it alive through the entire wrath of God. These are those who along with the remnant of Israel, will enter into the millennial kingdom and repopulate the earth. The church will have been gathered by the Lord at least seven years earlier.

By the way, at the resurrection and when the living are changed and caught up, angels do not gather them. They will rise in power, having immortal and glorified bodies just like the Lords. Matt.24:31 is the gathering of living people. But before that, the angels will first gather the weeds/wicked according to the parable in Matt.13 and then He will bring the wheat into His barn. Matt.24:31 is doesn't mention that aspect of when the angels gather the living.

A rapture before the second coming and before the resurrection is scripturally impossible and the second coming cannot happen until the tribulation has ended, Mat 24:29-30.

Paul is clear the rapture happens after the resurrection and the resurrection happens after the second coming. There is no pre-trib rapture in scripture.

Says you! What makes the Lord coming for His church scripturally impossible? The Lord as to remove His church prior to His wrath, because believers within the church are not appointed to suffer God's wrath and that because Jesus already satisfied it.

No matter which way you slice it, the church must be removed prior to the onset of God's wrath, which begins with the opening of the first seal.

It never fails to amaze me that a thread about the Rapture does not include the actual verses that speak of the Rapture and when it happens.

Here is one for you then:

"Since you have kept my command to endure patiently, I will also keep you out of the hour of trial that is going to come on the whole world to test the inhabitants of the earth." - Rev.3:10

The 'hour of trial' is another name for 'The Day of the Lord,' the time of God's wrath. In the verse above, the Lord says that He will keep believer 'out of' that time of wrath that going to come upon the whole world. The word 'ek' means out of, i.e. the Lord will keep us out of that time of wrath, not through or in it, but will keep us out of it.

In future support of the Lord removing His church from the earth prior to His wrath, we have the fact that throughout Revelation chapters 1 thru 3, the word 'ekklesia' translated as 'church' is used 19 times, with its last appearance being at the very end of chapter 3. Then John says that he hears a voice that sounds like a trumpet saying "come up here and I will show you what must take place after this, which was identified as the Lord's voice sounding like a trumpet in Rev.1:10.' Revelation 4:1 is a prophetic allusion to where the church is gathered. The voice that sounds like a trumpet is synonymous with the trumpet in 1 Thess.4:16 which calls up the church.

In further support that the church is gathered here in Rev.4:1, we no longer find the word ekklesia/church used from that point on, but instead is replaced with 'hagios' translated as 'saints.' The reason for this is because the church is no longer on the earth and saints is referring to the people who will become believers after the church has been gathered, with the majority being killed during the last 3 1/2 years of the seven year period, also known as the great tribulation.

We also have the following scriptures showing that the church will already be with the Lord in heaven"

"They will wage war against the Lamb, but the Lamb will triumph over them because he is Lord of lords and King of kings—and with him will be his called, chosen and faithful followers.”

The above is a glimpse of when the Lord is returning to the earth to end the age (second coming) and as you can see, with Him will be His called, chosen and faithful followers, which would be those who will have previously been resurrected and caught up. Below is another scripture showing that the bride/church will already be in heaven prior to the Lord's return:

=======================================
Hallelujah!

For our Lord God Almighty reigns.

Let us rejoice and be glad

and give him glory!

For the wedding of the Lamb has come,

and his bride has made herself ready.

Fine linen, bright and clean,

was given her to wear.”
=======================================

The bride is the church. And as you can plainly see, see is already in heaven attending the wedding of the Lamb as the bride. Then in the following mentioned in v.14

"The armies of heaven were following him, riding on white horses and dressed in fine linen, white and clean. "

Notice that the armies of heaven are wearing the same fine linen that was given to the bride v.8, which identifies them as being the bride, who is following the Lord out of heaven riding on white horses. Simply put, if you are following the Lord out of heaven, you would already have to be in heaven.

your error is not recognizing that the the gathering of the church as being a separate event from the the Lord's return to the earth to end age. Because of this you misapply the scriptures referring to the gathering with those of the second coming. As long as you continue to do this your interpretation of end time events will always be in error. Bring in the whole word of God, so that you don't trample on other information.

The bottom line is that, since Jesus satisfied God's wrath on behalf of every believer, then we must be removed prior to God's wrath.

 

[Absolutely]

A few things (perhaps you missed these in that post you quoted of mine, and an earlier post of mine in this thread):

--regarding the "WATCH [G1127]" word, as used in a context addressed to "the Church which is His body," see bottom part of my Post #4 in this thread: https://christianchat.com/threads/j...rapture-stop-causing-fear.199566/post-4580609 ;

--regarding your "BE READY" phrase (Matt24:44), I pointed out in that post you quoted of mine: this passage (Matt24:42-51) is parallel with Luke 12:36-37,38,40,42-44,45-48 the passage stating (v.36) "when he will RETURN FROM the wedding" (i.e. as an ALREADY-WED Bridegroom, by that point!)... THEN the meal [G347] (v.37)... (aka the earthly MK age);

--I've stated that "Noah and crew" are a "type" of those saints coming through the Trib yrs (and afterward "[ACTIVELY] FILLED the earth"--see again Dan2:35c compared with Gen9:1--and note "as the days of Noah were, SO SHALL also..."); whereas "Enoch" (ONE MAN) is a "type" of "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY"... translated (or 'caught up' to the meeting of the Lord IN THE AIR) BEFORE the flood judgment came upon the earth;

--I've pointed out the phrases (in the parallel passages... Matt24:43 and Lk12:38[35]) about the "NIGHT WATCHES" [and "LAMPS LIT"], that this pertains to the "IN THE NIGHT" time period that 1Th5:2-3 refers to as being in play at the ARRIVAL of the "DOTL" earthly time-period (we commonly call the Tribulation period), and that the "LAMPS LIT" issue (per OT references) were "lighted AT EVEN [/SUNDOWN / twilight]"... and I've already mentioned in past posts that the phrase (pertaining to "our Rapture") "in the twinkling of an eye" refers to "the exact moment when one day turns into the next, when the sun is 8-degrees below the horizon, AT SUNDOWN"--i.e. WE do not step ONE FOOT INTO "the DOTL" time period (aka the TRIB yrs, aka "IN THE NIGHT"... *we* have NOTHING TO DO with the "NIGHT WATCHES," those IN the Trib do! ["the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY" will have already been 100% ("ALL") raptured/snatched out PRIOR to that time-period's commencing... NO BODY PARTS left behind!! ]);

--I could say much more, but few ppl read long posts... = )




see again my Post #4 at link, above




I think not; and in view of what I've put in the above portion (and in many other posts), I believe it is you that have, my dear Abs... but again, you have no problem embracing the faulty "partial-rapture theory" (and your mistakenly having Jesus' intentions be to "MARRY" 10 or 5 "virginS [PLURAL]" instead of the "ONE" 2Cor11:2! "A CHASTE VIRGIN [SINGULAR]"), and this being due to your mis-applying the passages I've pointed out, above, among a number of others...



Enjoy your day, Abs. = )

Jesus to born again saved believers " pray that you may be counted WORTHY to escape the things about to come upon the earth and stand before the son of God."

IOW SOME believers are NOT WORTHY.
AHEM the one taken/left as well as the 10 virgins are WITHOUT A DOUBT THE RAPTURE AND BOTH HAVE THE SAME RATIO OF TAKEN/LEFT.

Same with the crowns. Those crowns are for certain works on earth. WORTHY OF CROWNS VS UNWORTHY...OR NO CROWNS ( partial awards)

THE 7 LETTERS TO THE CHURCHES

TONS OF WORTHY VS UNWORTHY ( partial worthy)

TONS OF IT.

So since your beliefs remove worthy/ unworthy in the rapture, do you also apply it to crowns at the bema seat and rewards vs judgements to the 7 churches?

Jesus even said
"""
10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

11 Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown.

See that?
Partial rapture big time.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

AHEM the one taken/left as well as the 19 virgins are WITHOUT A DOUBT THE RAPTURE AND BOTH HAVE THE SAME RATIO OF TAKEN/LEFT.

I just made a post in this thread, didn't I?? (was it this thread??)... the "one taken, other left" passages, the one "taken" is "taken away in judgment" (just as in Noah's day) and the one "left" is left to ENTER the earthly MK age in their mortal bodies (just as in Noah's day)... so yes, both of these passages (these "taken / left" passages AND the "10 Virgins" passage) are in the CONTEXT of His Second Coming to the earth (NOT "our Rapture [IN THE AIR]")... see also the Lk17 "taken / left," where "and DESTROYED THEM ALL" is said in vv.27,29... note: that's NOT what occurs to those "left behind" (because unsaved at the time) following "our Rapture" event... no... following "our Rapture," many more ppl WILL be coming to faith in/during/within the Trib years leading UP TO His "RETURN" to the earth Rev19...




[the ANGELS are told "COLLECT ye FIRST the TARES" at that point in time--meaning, at the time surrounding Christ's Second Coming to the earth Rev19]

 

[Absolutely]

A few things (perhaps you missed these in that post you quoted of mine, and an earlier post of mine in this thread):

--regarding the "WATCH [G1127]" word, as used in a context addressed to "the Church which is His body," see bottom part of my Post #4 in this thread: https://christianchat.com/threads/j...rapture-stop-causing-fear.199566/post-4580609 ;

--regarding your "BE READY" phrase (Matt24:44), I pointed out in that post you quoted of mine: this passage (Matt24:42-51) is parallel with Luke 12:36-37,38,40,42-44,45-48 the passage stating (v.36) "when he will RETURN FROM the wedding" (i.e. as an ALREADY-WED Bridegroom, by that point!)... THEN the meal [G347] (v.37)... (aka the earthly MK age);

--I've stated that "Noah and crew" are a "type" of those saints coming through the Trib yrs (and afterward "[ACTIVELY] FILLED the earth"--see again Dan2:35c compared with Gen9:1--and note "as the days of Noah were, SO SHALL also..."); whereas "Enoch" (ONE MAN) is a "type" of "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY"... translated (or 'caught up' to the meeting of the Lord IN THE AIR) BEFORE the flood judgment came upon the earth;

--I've pointed out the phrases (in the parallel passages... Matt24:43 and Lk12:38[35]) about the "NIGHT WATCHES" [and "LAMPS LIT"], that this pertains to the "IN THE NIGHT" time period that 1Th5:2-3 refers to as being in play at the ARRIVAL of the "DOTL" earthly time-period (we commonly call the Tribulation period), and that the "LAMPS LIT" issue (per OT references) were "lighted AT EVEN [/SUNDOWN / twilight]"... and I've already mentioned in past posts that the phrase (pertaining to "our Rapture") "in the twinkling of an eye" refers to "the exact moment when one day turns into the next, when the sun is 8-degrees below the horizon, AT SUNDOWN"--i.e. WE do not step ONE FOOT INTO "the DOTL" time period (aka the TRIB yrs, aka "IN THE NIGHT"... *we* have NOTHING TO DO with the "NIGHT WATCHES," those IN the Trib do! ["the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY" will have already been 100% ("ALL") raptured/snatched out PRIOR to that time-period's commencing... NO BODY PARTS left behind!! ]);

--I could say much more, but few ppl read long posts... = )




see again my Post #4 at link, above




I think not; and in view of what I've put in the above portion (and in many other posts), I believe it is you that have, my dear Abs... but again, you have no problem embracing the faulty "partial-rapture theory" (and your mistakenly having Jesus' intentions be to "MARRY" 10 or 5 "virginS [PLURAL]" instead of the "ONE" 2Cor11:2! "A CHASTE VIRGIN [SINGULAR]"), and this being due to your mis-applying the passages I've pointed out, above, among a number of others...



Enjoy your day, Abs. = )

No wonder you stumble over the 10 virgins.
You produce all those sentences and state Jesus comes at sundown.

But in the rapture, the 10 virgin parable, it is crystal clear;

6 And at MIDNIGHT there was a cry made, Behold, the bridegroom cometh; go ye out to meet him.

7 Then all those virgins arose, and trimmed their lamps.

 

[Absolutely]

I just made a post in this thread, didn't I?? (was it this thread??)... the "one taken, other left" passages, the one "taken" is "taken away in judgment" (just as in Noah's day) and the one "left" is left to ENTER the earthly MK age in their mortal bodies (just as in Noah's day)... so yes, both of these passages (these "taken / left" passages AND the "10 Virgins" passage) are in the CONTEXT of His Second Coming to the earth (NOT "our Rapture [IN THE AIR]")... see also the Lk17 "taken / left," where "and DESTROYED THEM ALL" is said in vv.27,29... note: that's NOT what occurs to those "left behind" (because unsaved at the time) following "our Rapture" event... no... following "our Rapture," many more ppl WILL be coming to faith in/during/within the Trib years leading UP TO His "RETURN" to the earth Rev19...




[the ANGELS are told "COLLECT ye FIRST the TARES" at that point in time--meaning, at the time surrounding Christ's Second Coming to the earth Rev19]

NOPE
it says watch and be ready.

You left out context.

You reframed it

 

[Absolutely]

"""I just made a post in this thread, didn't I?? (was it this thread??)... the "one taken, other left" passages, the one "taken" is "taken away in judgment" (just as in Noah's day) and the one "left" is left to ENTER the earthly MK"""

Not taken to judgement

It says BEFORE THE FLOOD

THEN WATCH AND BE READY.

Not only that, if the "righteous" is left, that means you have a saved person in a bed with a heathen that has the mark of the beast.
...and beyond that, ALL EXAMPLES are PEACETIME. Go back and read about the earth destroyed into a rubble at the end of the trib.

But no matter what, you are espousing a scenario wher Jesus is saying " keep watchful and ready .....TO STAY BEHIND....

That interpretation is poorly thought out sir.

 

[Absolutely]

"""I believe it is you that have, my dear Abs... but again, you have no problem embracing the faulty "partial-rapture theory" (and your mistakenly having Jesus' intentions be to "MARRY" 10 or 5 "virginS [PLURAL]" instead of the "ONE" 2Cor11:2! "A CHASTE VIRGIN [SINGULAR]"), and this being due to your mis-applying the passages I've pointed out, above, among a number of others"""
You really think the bride is one believer????
One person gets raptured???
Bizarre!!!
Uh....and exactly who is this one person Jesus marries???
Paul????
Moses???
John???

David , the forerunner to Jesus Had many wives.

Factor in the complete picture.

You have made a case on conjecture big time

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

But no matter what, you are espousing a scenario wher Jesus is saying " keep watchful and ready .....TO STAY BEHIND....

What I've said in that long post (you apparently did not read, nor my Post #4 I linked) is that "WATCH AND BE READY" (your phrase; which is actually a combination of two separate verses) is NOT a "RAPTURE" CONTEXT (Matt24:42-44 and context, and ITS PARALLEL Lk12:37-40 and context--where the latter of these two SHOWS US it is referring to "when he will RETURN FROM THE WEDDING"... Not "TO BE MARRIED" in this context ... He's ALREADY BEEN "MARRIED," by that [/this] point in the chronology, coz these are "Second Coming TO THE EARTH" [Rev19] references... NOT "RAPTURE [IN THE AIR]" contexts).

 

[OrphanedRepublican]

The following is an excerpt from Ahwatukee: The red letters are my verses I'm wondering if they belong with the statement. I'm wondering if I can attach other scriptures to these points. It helps me sort out concepts, especially if they pair up or reinforce other verses. People have been talking about Matthew 24 and so I was examining that chapter.

* You are here

* The Lord descends to the air to gather the church Matt 24:13 + Matt 24:30-31?

* Antichrist is revealed and God's wrath begins via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments (Revelation chapters 6 thru 18) Matt: 24:15?

* The Lord returns after the 7th bowl has been poured out (Rev.16:17 "It is done") Matt 24:13 + Matt 24:30-31?

* All of the wicked who make it alive through the tribulation period are killed by the Lord (Rev.19:15, 17-18, 21) Matt 24:28?

* The beast and the false prophet are thrown alive into the lake of fire (Rev.19:20)

* Satan is thrown into the Abyss and sealed in it during the thousand years (Rev.20:1-3

* Millennial kingdom begins (literal thousand years) (Rev.20:1-3)

* Satan is released at the end of the thousand years for one last deception (Rev.20:7-9)

* Satan cast into the lake of fire (Rev.20:10)

* Great white throne judgment of all the unrighteous dead (the church is not judged at this judgment) - Rev.20:11-15

* New heaven, new earth, new Jerusalem. (Revelation chapters 21 & 22)

* Eternal state -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------->

But who are these people in Matt 24:16-20?

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

You really think the bride is one believer????
One person gets raptured???

"For I am jealous over you [CORPORATE (plural) 'you'] with godly jealousy: for I have betrothed you [CORPORATE (plural), 'you'] to ONE HUSBAND, that I may present [or, to present] you [understood 'you'] A CHASTE VIRGIN [SINGULAR] to Christ" - https://biblehub.com/interlinear/2_corinthians/11-2.htm


(i.e. the "A CHASTE VIRGIN [SINGULAR]" is made up of "many members"... tho "ONE BODY"... He is only "MARRYING" ONE VIRGIN [SINGULAR]... not 5 virginS [plural]... those are who will "go in with [G3326 - accompanying] Him to the wedding FEAST/SUPPER" upon His "RETURN" to the earth Matt25:1,10 [note: NOT "WITH [G4862 - UNIONed-with] Him" as is said of US / the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY])


[note to readers: "the kingdom OF THE heavenS" (v.1) is not located UP IN "Heaven"]





I realize you (dear Abs) are never going to be convinced... so I'm mainly putting this post here for the readers...

 

[ewq1938]

That's not what the parable says. All 10 went out to meet the bridegroom.

That leaves out the ending of the parable. The five foolish were rejected. They represent the Christians who commit Apostasy and are refused to go to the wedding.

 

[Chris1975]

That leaves out the ending of the parable. The five foolish were rejected. They represent the Christians who commit Apostasy and are refused to go to the wedding.

They all 10 were WAITING for the bridegroom. They went out to meet him. The 5 do not refer to Apostacy. They still call Him Lord in the parable even though they are locked out.

 

[soberxp]

Five out of 10 only looks like they are Christians as the lamps without oil, they don't glow,Not equipped with the word of God in them,or they didn't understand what is the word of God.