Jesus comes immediately AFTER the tribulation, there is no Left Behind Secret Rapture=Stop causing fear.

[Ahwatukee]

What "information"? No one has yet quoted any verse that shows Jesus taking resurrected and raptured believers to heaven.

I continue to quote it from John 14:1-3 and you continue to reject it! You're like little kids putting their fingers in their ears, closing their eyes while loudly saying "la, la, la, la ...." in order to block out the truth.

1 Thessalonians 4:13-17 combined with 1 Corinthians 15 states that dead will be raised immortal and glorified, with the living being transformed immortal and glorified and will be caught up to meet the Lord in the air. The promise in John 14:1-3 has the Lord going to the Father's house to prepare places for us and the promise to come back to get us to take us there, i.e. to take us to those places in the Father's house. Then you have Paul supporting this by the following scripture:

"But our citizenship is in heaven, and we eagerly await a Savior from there, the Lord Jesus Christ, who, by the power that enables Him to subject all things to Himself, will transform our lowly bodies to be like His glorious body."

By the way, the last part of the scripture above is what is stated in 1 Cor.15 when the the bodies of the dead and living in Christ are transformed immortal and glorified.

The truth is that 2 Thess 2:1 shows the rapture at the Second Advent.

The day that Paul is talking about is not the coming of our Lord and our being gathered to Him. But is what follows, which is "The Day of the Lord" which is the time of God's wrath. Paul was saying that the proof that "The Day of the Lord" had already come is when the apostasy occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed.

How about taking my challenge and substituting the words "coming" and "gathering" for whatever thing you think it being referenced?

There is no challenge here:

"Now concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered together to Him"

1 Thessalonians 4:16 states that "the Lord himself will descend from heaven," which supported by the fact that in John 14:1-3 He said that He would come back to get us to take us back to the Father's house.

There are two elements there:

* The coming of our Lord Jesus

* Our being gathered to Him

When you read this, you must always keep in mind that believers within the church are not appointed to suffer God's wrath. No matter which way you slice it, by having the church gathered when the Lord returns to the earth to end the age, you would be putting the living church through the entire wrath of God.

That last seven years of wrath are specific to God fulfilling that last seven years of the decree that was given to Israel and the pouring out His wrath on a wicked Christ rejecting world and not for those who have already believed in His Son. People try to cushion this by saying that God protects the church during the time of His wrath. Those who claim this have no idea of the severity and magnitude of said wrath, else they would not make that claim.

You still have not responded to the fact that Rev.17:14, 19:6-8, 14 shows the church/bride following the Lord out of heaven.

By your belief and teaching, you and others cannot be looking for the imminent return of the Lord, but for the completion of God's wrath first. Where we on the other hand, are looking for the imminent return of the Lord i.e. prior to God's wrath. If I was here on the earth during the time of God's wrath, I could follow the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments like a road map, knowing that Jesus cannot return until after the 7th bowl has been poured out, which completes God's wrath.

It is sad that you do not honor the Lord by recognizing that He satisfied God's wrath on our behalf and thereby teach that we go through it.

 

[Gibsonbfree]

If you are saying the rapture is around the mid trib period I agree. The tribulation and then wrath great tribulation in between those two the first rapture.

 

[Ahwatukee]

prewrath is mid trib. God's word shows its amillennialism.

amillennialism is a ridiculous belief in that it ignores a literal thousand years which is stated six times in Revelation 20:1-7. You and others are just choosing to not believe what you are reading. Because if you take the scripture at face value, you cannot say that it does not say "a thousand years." You've bought into that false teaching that was started about the thousand years not being a literal thousand years. When it is mentioned over and over you should take note.

Daniel 2 describes the literal millennial kingdom as that Rock/Jesus that was cut out of the mountain without human hands, who falls on the feet of the statue smashing it to pieces like chaff on a threshing floor. And the wind blowing it away without leaving a trace, i.e. the end of all human government. Then that Rock becomes a huge mountain and fills the whole earth, i.e. Christ's reign during the millennial kingdom.

 

[HatedForNoReason]

amillennialism is a ridiculous belief in that it ignores a literal thousand years which is stated six times in Revelation 20:1-7. You and others are just choosing to not believe what you are reading. Because if you take the scripture at face value, you cannot say that it does not say "a thousand years." You've bought into that false teaching that was started about the thousand years not being a literal thousand years. When it is mentioned over and over you should take note.

Daniel 2 describes the literal millennial kingdom as that Rock/Jesus that was cut out of the mountain without human hands, who falls on the feet of the statue smashing it to pieces like chaff on a threshing floor. And the wind blowing it away without leaving a trace, i.e. the end of all human government. Then that Rock becomes a huge mountain and fills the whole earth, i.e. Christ's reign during the millennial kingdom.

Book of Revelation is a symbolic book...
If you take all of it literally, you will have nightmares.

 

[Jocund]

"Since, therefore, we have now been justified by his blood, how much more shall we be saved by him from the wrath of God." - Rom.5:9

"For they themselves report concerning us the kind of reception we had among you, and how you turned to God from idols to serve the living and true God, and to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, Jesus who delivers us from the wrath to come. - 1 Thess.1:10

"But since we belong to the day, let us be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love, and the helmet of our hope of salvation. For God has not appointed us to suffer wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ." - 1 Thess.5:9

The verses Rom 5:9, 1 Thes 1:10, and 1 Thes 5:9 do not explicitly demonstrate a rapturous deliverance from suffering God's wrath. Here's why:

Case 1) Deliverance does not mean that one necessarily completely avoids suffering that thing, only that the end result is to be taken away from it (example Romans 7).

"O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?" - Romans 7:24 KJV

Case 2) Deliverance that also includes an avoidance of suffering does not necessarily mean one completely avoids being in the presence of that thing, only that they do not experience the ill effects (example: Daniel 3)

" If it be so, our God whom we serve is able to deliver us from the burning fiery furnace, and he will deliver us out of thine hand, O king. [...] He answered and said, Lo, I see four men loose, walking in the midst of the fire, and they have no hurt; and the form of the fourth is like the Son of God." - Daniel 3:17&25 KJV

1 Thessalonians presents an interesting dilemma. Was the message for the church of the Thessalonians (1 Thes 1:1) specifically or directed to Christians generally? If specifically to the church, case 1) of deliverance is true. If to Christians in general, case 2) of the deliverance is true. In either case, rapturous escape is not a necessary conclusion.

There are 4 ways to be delivered from suffering wrath:

1) Moved to a safe location (e.g. Noah's ark)
2) Be unaffected by suffering (e.g. the furnace in Daniel)
3) Sleep of death prior to wrath
4) Rapture into the sky

(Importantly, a deliverance of many people might utilize a mix of all four)

They also don't take into consideration that the word Ekklesia translated as church is never mentioned within the narrative of God's wrath. Yet in chapters 1 thru 3, it is the only word used.

I am not familiar with this reference.

And the fact that God does not punish the righteous with the wicked.

There are examples where God's wrath is applied to both righteous and wicked indiscriminately.

"And say to the land of Israel, Thus saith the Lord; Behold, I am against thee, and will draw forth my sword out of his sheath, and will cut off from thee the righteous and the wicked." - Ezekiel 21:3 KJV

It's actually a common misconception that God does not afflict punishment and injury on the righteous. Job is another example of a righteous man that faced many hardships there he considered to be punishments. There are specific instances including Sodom and Gomorrah where the righteous were completely spared, but that is not always the case.

Revelation 17:14 which reveals the church (the called, chosen and faithful followers) returning with the Lord out of heaven to the earth.

"These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful." - Rev 17:14 KJV

Two interpretations. Either it is a physical return of Christ, or it is the emergence of the body of Christ through the people on earth (a metaphor that diametrically opposes the figure of the Whore of Babylon as a metaphor for nations of people). Even if we look at the physical return of Christ, where is it indicated that called, chosen, and faithful are coming from heaven?

Even if these individuals were from heaven, did they appear there by means of a live bodily rapture? Or did they die and eventually ascend to heaven in events unrelated to the Day of the Lord?

further stated in Revelation 19:6-8 with the bride/church being at the wedding of the Lamb in heaven. And then in verse 14 shows the bride/church following the Lord out of heaven to the earth wearing her fine linen and riding on white horses.

"And I heard as it were the voice of a great multitude, and as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of mighty thunderings, saying, Alleluia: for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth. Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready. And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints. [...] And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean." - Rev 19:6-8&14 KJV

1) What indicates that the wedding feast takes place in heaven?
2) What indicates that heaven's armies are men rather than angels?
3) If heaven's army is composed of men, what indicates these men originated from a live/fleshly rapture on the Day of the Lord?

In writing to Titus, Paul referred to the Lord's appearing and our being gathered as the Blessed Hope. After he gave his detailed account of the living church being changed immortal and glorified and caught up, he said for us to "comfort each other with those words." That said, if the church were to be gathered after God's wrath, then it would not be a blessed hope, nor could we comfort each other with those words and that because we would be subject to the same wrath that the wicked would be going through.

"Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;" - Titus 2:13 KJV

Why would being subject to suffering wrath negate a blessed hope? Especially when Rev 20 shows that in part of the purification process of the saved that sadness and grief fade away? The end result is good even if troubled times exist between the start and finish.

"Oh, the wrath that is being spoken of is the wrath at the great white throne judgment," attempting to further make us believe that believers are not appointed to suffer that wrath, but that we will suffer the wrath that takes place on earth. The truth of the matter is that, believers in Christ are not to suffer any of God's wrath at all, because the Lord already suffered God's wrath on behalf of every believer, satisfying it completely.

This comes back to the 4 ways to be delivered from suffering wrath (and the question about the intended audience of 1 Thes 5:9).

Another amazing truth supporting a pre-tribulation gathering is that, as a punishment for anyone who adds to the words of the prophesies in the book of Revelation, God will add to that person the plagues of wrath listed in this book. Yet the post-tribbers would have the living church go through those plagues of wrath for no reason at all!

First, we must look at what is most consistent with scripture. Is pre-trib fleshly rapture consistent with scripture? Yes. Is post-trib fleshly rapture consistent with scripture? Yes. Is no-fleshly-rapture consistent with scripture? Yes. Can multiple disagreeing perspectives all be consistent with scripture? Yes.

Once we have determined what is consistent (logos) we then can assess which interpretation we personally find to be the most compelling (pathos/ethos). We may be superimposed over two or more opposing ideas, or may settle on one answer very quickly.

Voicing a preferred interpretation doesn't add words to the prophesies. But claiming that scripture definitively and explicitly agrees with your perspective (when it doesn't do so) might constitute adding to the prophesy. I think pre-trib rapture is a fine interpretation, but I have not seen any evidence that it is explicitly demonstrated in the texts to the exclusion of the opposing perspectives.

 

[HatedForNoReason]

Are there really people who are afraid?

Baby Christians yea, lies of secret rapture and reading book of Revelation literally.

 

[HatedForNoReason]

Are there really people who are afraid?

Revelation 2:4-5
New King James Version

4 Nevertheless I have this against you, that you have left your first love. 5 Remember therefore from where you have fallen; repent and do the first works, or else I will come to you quickly and remove your lampstand from its place—unless you repent.

The top verse led me to pray to God to understand what love was. Than a pastor from a church changed his sermon to describe agape love to me. After that I read bible verses that God led me to.

Than again God used my fear when I was a baby Christian to pray to him for understanding and he led me to understand most of the end of times prophecies by causing events to happen.

https://www.gotquestions.org/calvinism.html

Total Depravity - As a result of Adam’s fall, the entire human race is affected; all humanity is dead in trespasses and sins. Man is unable to save himself (Genesis 6:5; Jeremiah 17:9; Romans 3:10-18).

Unconditional Election - Because man is dead in sin, he is unable to initiate a response to God; therefore, in eternity past God elected certain people to salvation. Election and predestination are unconditional; they are not based on man’s response (Romans 8:29-30;9:11; Ephesians 1:4-6, 11-12) because man is unable to respond, nor does he want to.

Limited Atonement - Because God determined that certain ones should be saved as a result of God’s unconditional election, He determined that Christ should die for the elect alone. All whom God has elected and for whom Christ died will be saved (Matthew 1:21; John 10:11; 17:9; Acts 20:28; Romans 8:32; Ephesians 5:25).

Irresistible Grace - Those whom God elected He draws to Himself through irresistible grace. God makes man willing to come to Him. When God calls, man responds (John 6:37, 44; 10:16).

Perseverance of the Saints - The precise ones God has elected and drawn to Himself through the Holy Spirit will persevere in faith. None whom God has elected will be lost; they are eternally secure (John 10:27-29; Romans 8:29-30; Ephesians 1:3-14).

 

[CS1]

WOW...fear is created by falsely interpreting scripture that we Born Again Christians will go thru the trib. period.
The Bible says..."I shall save you from the hour which shall come upon all the earth"....speaking to the members of God's church...Christians.

we have not been subjected to Wrath

 

[HatedForNoReason]

we have not been subjected to Wrath

The only thing is God's elects either jailed or killed=go to Heaven. Don't know what is there to be afraid of trib period...
God is Sovereign=all things are under His control.
https://testallthings.com/category/eschatology/

 

[CS1]

I agree. Pretrib rapture is a new age concept.

TPT has a great scholarly take on the passages that new age folk like to try to use in support of their view of pretrib rapture:

"Then we who are alive will join them, transported together[a] in clouds[b] to have an encounter[c]with the Lord in the air,[d] and we will be forever joined with the Lord." - 1 Thes 4:17 TPT


Footnotes

1. 4:17 Or “caught up together.” The Greek word harpazō is used as a figure of speech in Greek literature during the time Paul wrote this letter. The book of Enoch and the Dead Sea Scrolls use the same Greek word and imagery to describe spiritual victory, not a “rapture.” The word can describe being caught up in the victory of Christ’s unveiling. Also, there are Jewish apocalyptic texts that use the same phrasing as Paul’s writings but have nothing to do with a physical rapture.
2. 4:17 There is no definite article before clouds. It is literally “in clouds.” Where the identifying article is missing, it often speaks of quality, or it is used as a descriptive term. The Greek word for “cloud” is often used in the Greek classics of a large body of individuals, and it is so used in this symbolic way in Heb. 12:1–2, speaking of the “great witnesses who encircle us like clouds.”
3. 4:17 The Greek word apantēsisis not a verb (go to meet) but a feminine noun (a meeting or an encounter), and in this context it is the bride of Christ rising to be with Jesus to have an encounter or “[bridal] meeting.” This rarely used Greek word is also used in the parable of the ten virgins, referring to the virgins rising up to meet (have a meeting) with the bridegroom. See Matt. 25:1, 6.
4. 4:17 This is the Greek word aerand is not the sky, but the air around us. See Eph. 2:2 where it is also used not in a literal sense.

the taking of the bride is what Jesus said HE would do read John chapter 14. the taking of the church was described By Jesus as the Bride Groom coming to get His bride. The Account Paul gave in 1Thess chapter 4:13-18 and the John 14 chapter is greatly in line with the Jewish tradition of marriage where the bride Groom goes to his Fathers house and prepares space for HIS bride. When it is time the father tells HIS son, Go get your bride. The Rapture is Christ coming for HIS Bride. Now if you think you have to suffer as the bride of Christ as the wrath of God is poured out on the earth please be my guest, I am not subject to that wrath in fact, there is no guarantee I will be physically alive when the Rapture happens SO I am ready today right now. I am not looking for the anti-christ I am looking for the Lord Jesus Christ.

 

[CS1]

The only thing is God's elects either jailed or killed=go to Heaven. Don't know what is there to be afraid of trib period...
God is Sovereign=all things are under His control.
https://testallthings.com/category/eschatology/

nope, I am a Bride of Christ I am not needing to suffer to prove my love for God He took that now I will have troubles as we all do but I will not see the great tribulation. You want to be here for please do.

 

[HatedForNoReason]

nope, I am a Bride of Christ I am not needing to suffer to prove my love for God He took that now I will have troubles as we all do but I will not see the great tribulation. You want to be here for please do.

Have you experienced the family persecution that mostly happens on holidays and a bunch of nonelect pastors trying to make you compromise your faith? Picture of pharisees and sadducees argue with Jesus.

 

[HatedForNoReason]

nope, I am a Bride of Christ I am not needing to suffer to prove my love for God He took that now I will have troubles as we all do but I will not see the great tribulation. You want to be here for please do.

I fight off self-pity by thanking God that he chose me as one of his elect and God will give me the grace to endure persecution.

 

[Gibsonbfree]

All of you are so confident you have it figured out. We are right before the endtimes tribulation period right now. As the awatakee guy said, after the prophecies then Jesus comes onto earth to reign 1000 years. Corona is the beginning.

You guys that say there is no rapture do not realize that God Himself has directly gave revelation through visions and dreams there is a rapture and it happens before the wrath period. Harpazo in the Bible is 100% a rapture. In fact He showed them there is multiple raptures for multiple harvests. It is Where in the Bible Jesus says those servants who are on the 2nd and third watch will be blessed. The barley, wheat and grape are the harvests. The 144k and Bride is raptured prewrath. Don’t know which harvests each are specific. The wedding guests are raptured after the wrath starts. The grape harvest is those martyred.

The book of Revelation is literal and symbolic at the same time. In the Bible one prophecy can happen multiple times and in different ways to fulfill the same details.

You guys don’t believe God when he said he would prophecy to people through dreams/visions? If not then that is no different than those who didn’t believe Bible prophets cayse they were shown through dreams amd visions and direct words from God.

God showed most all specific events that will happen to people. That Russia will invade America who is Babylon the great abd destroy America in 1 hour by nuclear weapons. That a microchip will be instituted as the mark if beast. Cryptocurrencies is the precursor to all currency being digital on a network tracked through who has the mark. They are using corona and mask wearing as precursor of getting the works used to being controlled. God has shown on and on events. How CERN will be used to open the bottomless pit hell spirit dimension into this realm. Why you think CERN has the god of destruction Shiva dancing in front of a portal in their front yard for all to see? Can go on amd on what God has revealed to the elect through dreams/visions. No different than prophets of old. God says In Bible He always reveals to prophets.

Are we in the last days? Yes we are. Not the tribulation period yet but still the last days birth pangs. And as it says God has given many around the world dreams/visions of what will happen in detail.

Acts 2:17
’In the last days, God says, I will pour out my Spirit on all people. Your sons and daughters will prophesy, your young men will see visions, your old men will dream dreams

 

[Runningman]

All of you are so confident you have it figured out. We are right before the endtimes tribulation period right now. As the awatakee guy said, after the prophecies then Jesus comes onto earth to reign 1000 years. Corona is the beginning.

You guys that say there is no rapture do not realize that God Himself has directly gave revelation through visions and dreams there is a rapture and it happens before the wrath period. Harpazo in the Bible is 100% a rapture. In fact He showed them there is multiple raptures for multiple harvests. It is Where in the Bible Jesus says those servants who are on the 2nd and third watch will be blessed. The barley, wheat and grape are the harvests. The 144k and Bride is raptured prewrath. Don’t know which harvests each are specific. The wedding guests are raptured after the wrath starts. The grape harvest is those martyred.

The book of Revelation is literal and symbolic at the same time. In the Bible one prophecy can happen multiple times and in different ways to fulfill the same details.

You guys don’t believe God when he said he would prophecy to people through dreams/visions? If not then that is no different than those who didn’t believe Bible prophets cayse they were shown through dreams amd visions and direct words from God.

God showed most all specific events that will happen to people. That Russia will invade America who is Babylon the great abd destroy America in 1 hour by nuclear weapons. That a microchip will be instituted as the mark if beast. Cryptocurrencies is the precursor to all currency being digital on a network tracked through who has the mark. They are using corona and mask wearing as precursor of getting the works used to being controlled. God has shown on and on events. How CERN will be used to open the bottomless pit hell spirit dimension into this realm. Why you think CERN has the god of destruction Shiva dancing in front of a portal in their front yard for all to see? Can go on amd on what God has revealed to the elect through dreams/visions. No different than prophets of old. God says In Bible He always reveals to prophets.

Are we in the last days? Yes we are. Not the tribulation period yet but still the last days birth pangs. And as it says God has given many around the world dreams/visions of what will happen in detail.

Acts 2:17
’In the last days, God says, I will pour out my Spirit on all people. Your sons and daughters will prophesy, your young men will see visions, your old men will dream dreams

Do you know how to test if someone is a false prophet?

 

[Absolutely]

Baby Christians yea, lies of secret rapture and reading book of Revelation literally.

*Cant debate substance.

*Demonize opponent

*Repeat

 

[Absolutely]

I fight off self-pity by thanking God that he chose me as one of his elect and God will give me the grace to endure persecution.

All the apostles but john were martyred by the devil.
They DID NOT go through Gods wrath ....AT ALL.
Tortured and killed
Learn the difference.

 

[Absolutely]

the taking of the bride is what Jesus said HE would do read John chapter 14. the taking of the church was described By Jesus as the Bride Groom coming to get His bride. The Account Paul gave in 1Thess chapter 4:13-18 and the John 14 chapter is greatly in line with the Jewish tradition of marriage where the bride Groom goes to his Fathers house and prepares space for HIS bride. When it is time the father tells HIS son, Go get your bride. The Rapture is Christ coming for HIS Bride. Now if you think you have to suffer as the bride of Christ as the wrath of God is poured out on the earth please be my guest, I am not subject to that wrath in fact, there is no guarantee I will be physically alive when the Rapture happens SO I am ready today right now. I am not looking for the anti-christ I am looking for the Lord Jesus Christ.

The reason they go there is not only to protect a poorly thought out doctrine , but mis understand the purpose of the trib.

No clue as to purpose.

The entire deal begins in abstract.

Then confusion. Imagine that many verses reframed. Result would be confusion every time.

 

[Absolutely]

All of you are so confident you have it figured out. We are right before the endtimes tribulation period right now. As the awatakee guy said, after the prophecies then Jesus comes onto earth to reign 1000 years. Corona is the beginning.

You guys that say there is no rapture do not realize that God Himself has directly gave revelation through visions and dreams there is a rapture and it happens before the wrath period. Harpazo in the Bible is 100% a rapture. In fact He showed them there is multiple raptures for multiple harvests. It is Where in the Bible Jesus says those servants who are on the 2nd and third watch will be blessed. The barley, wheat and grape are the harvests. The 144k and Bride is raptured prewrath. Don’t know which harvests each are specific. The wedding guests are raptured after the wrath starts. The grape harvest is those martyred.

The book of Revelation is literal and symbolic at the same time. In the Bible one prophecy can happen multiple times and in different ways to fulfill the same details.

You guys don’t believe God when he said he would prophecy to people through dreams/visions? If not then that is no different than those who didn’t believe Bible prophets cayse they were shown through dreams amd visions and direct words from God.

God showed most all specific events that will happen to people. That Russia will invade America who is Babylon the great abd destroy America in 1 hour by nuclear weapons. That a microchip will be instituted as the mark if beast. Cryptocurrencies is the precursor to all currency being digital on a network tracked through who has the mark. They are using corona and mask wearing as precursor of getting the works used to being controlled. God has shown on and on events. How CERN will be used to open the bottomless pit hell spirit dimension into this realm. Why you think CERN has the god of destruction Shiva dancing in front of a portal in their front yard for all to see? Can go on amd on what God has revealed to the elect through dreams/visions. No different than prophets of old. God says In Bible He always reveals to prophets.

Are we in the last days? Yes we are. Not the tribulation period yet but still the last days birth pangs. And as it says God has given many around the world dreams/visions of what will happen in detail.

Acts 2:17
’In the last days, God says, I will pour out my Spirit on all people. Your sons and daughters will prophesy, your young men will see visions, your old men will dream dreams

Yes
Harvest is 4 parts
Firstfruit
Main
Corners
Gleaners.

But in rev 14 we see a rapture that is neither the main harvest( gentile bride) nor the second coming.
That harvest is jews
Firstfruits 144k
Then, Main jewish harvest.

The first miracle of Jesus had to be at a wedding.
The declaration "......but you saved the best WINE for last"
The grape harvest is last.( the Jews).
Note it is a section of them,....and they come to the feast in heaven, through Jesus.

 

[FreeGrace2]

It was found as Jesus says all who get saved in any harvest is chosen by God not man himself. And if chosen they will be saved and not fail because God controls everything that happens and preserves them.

God does NOT choose who will believe, which is basically what you are insinuating. But please quote a verse that teaches this, if you think there is.

It IS God's choice to save "those who believe". That's God criteria for who to save.

1 Cor 1:21 - For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe.

Do you think God would choose what doesn't please Him? Of course not.