Jesus comes immediately AFTER the tribulation, there is no Left Behind Secret Rapture=Stop causing fear.
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I can accept that someone disagrees with the rapture concept, that the Church is taken away before the wrath of God is unleashed on this earth.
What I can't accept is someone denying the rapture concept is not found in scripture. That is just plain and simple ignorance!
This is why the greater majority of post-tribbers can't explain the rapture concept, they don't know where to begin, they don't understand it scripturally but will deny it come hell or high water.
What I can't accept is someone denying the rapture concept is not found in scripture. That is just plain and simple ignorance!
This is why the greater majority of post-tribbers can't explain the rapture concept, they don't know where to begin, they don't understand it scripturally but will deny it come hell or high water.
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"Apparently Arnold Fruchtenbaum never read Matt 22:30, Luke 14:14, Acts 24:15, 1 Cor `5:23"
An absolutely absurd assumption. It's far more likely the Doctor could quote those scriptures verbatim from memory. And as he says the "wrath to come" is NOT the wrath of judgment as far as Christians are concerned.......as judgment for sin is NOT applicable to them. Ipso facto the wrath to come is ALWAYS refering to the 70th week of Daniel tribulation.
An absolutely absurd assumption. It's far more likely the Doctor could quote those scriptures verbatim from memory. And as he says the "wrath to come" is NOT the wrath of judgment as far as Christians are concerned.......as judgment for sin is NOT applicable to them. Ipso facto the wrath to come is ALWAYS refering to the 70th week of Daniel tribulation.
You are just hilarious. Trying to avoid the painful obvious.
Jesus takes all the saints from heaven, brings them to the clouds, where all of them meet the living believers in the air, just as 1 These 4 says, and after giving all of them glorified bodies, ends the Trib (on earth) and sets up His Millennial Kingdom (on earth).
Everyone knows the sequence of events when Jesus returns at the Second Advent. It's a no-brainer.
The real problem is that the pretrib view cannot show Jesus taking glorified believers to heaven.
Because He doesn't. And you know it. Even Arnold knows it.
Jesus takes all the saints from heaven, brings them to the clouds, where all of them meet the living believers in the air, just as 1 These 4 says, and after giving all of them glorified bodies, ends the Trib (on earth) and sets up His Millennial Kingdom (on earth).
Everyone knows the sequence of events when Jesus returns at the Second Advent. It's a no-brainer.
The real problem is that the pretrib view cannot show Jesus taking glorified believers to heaven.
Because He doesn't. And you know it. Even Arnold knows it.
FreeGrace2 said:
What verse shows another rapture, or the giving of a glorified body to people? That's what is needed to accept multiple resurrection/raptures.
The Bible teaches just ONE for the saved.
EVERY believer, both dead and living, receive a glorified body, 'when He comes' according to 1 Cor 15:23. Care to exegete that verse to prove that I'm wrong?
Where do YOU get the idea that there is a "rapture" at eh GWT?? That is the judgement for all the unsaved.
So I can't show you what doesn't occur, any more than you can show me Jesus taking any glorified believer to heaven, because that doesn't occur either.
Rev 20 clearly shows the resurrected of the saved "when He comes". Because, "when he comes", all believers will assist Him in His kingdom.
What verse shows another rapture, or the giving of a glorified body to people? That's what is needed to accept multiple resurrection/raptures.
The Bible teaches just ONE for the saved.
EVERY believer, both dead and living, receive a glorified body, 'when He comes' according to 1 Cor 15:23. Care to exegete that verse to prove that I'm wrong?
Where do YOU get the idea that there is a "rapture" at eh GWT?? That is the judgement for all the unsaved.
So I can't show you what doesn't occur, any more than you can show me Jesus taking any glorified believer to heaven, because that doesn't occur either.
Rev 20 clearly shows the resurrected of the saved "when He comes". Because, "when he comes", all believers will assist Him in His kingdom.
You just GOTTA be kidding, right?
Where do you see any "rapture" in any of these verses? You don't. You just wish very hard that you do.
Noah wasn't "raptured". Neither was Lot. In Acts 1, Jesus was the "firstfruits" of the single resurrection of all believers. But that isn't in view in Acts 1. Maybe you should read it. It is about His ascension. And He will come back the same way, in the clouds.
I've already shown numerous times all the verses that teach that there is ONLY 1 resurrection of believers.
Matt 22:30, Luke 14:14, Acts 24:15, 1 Cor 15:23.
Can you prove that these verses DON'T teach a single resurrection for all the saved?
Where do you see any "rapture" in any of these verses? You don't. You just wish very hard that you do.
Noah wasn't "raptured". Neither was Lot. In Acts 1, Jesus was the "firstfruits" of the single resurrection of all believers. But that isn't in view in Acts 1. Maybe you should read it. It is about His ascension. And He will come back the same way, in the clouds.
I've already shown numerous times all the verses that teach that there is ONLY 1 resurrection of believers.
Matt 22:30, Luke 14:14, Acts 24:15, 1 Cor 15:23.
Can you prove that these verses DON'T teach a single resurrection for all the saved?
Of course there's more than one resurrection. This has been covered over and over again. Tribulation saints and Old Testament saints are two different resurrections of the justified for example. The Church rapture is a unique rapture (in time and place) of a specific group....as are these two groups. A concept delineated by Paul in 1 Corinthians 15.
You post-tribbers never come clean. It's either denials, a hackneyed interpretation, or willful ignorance.
You post-tribbers never come clean. It's either denials, a hackneyed interpretation, or willful ignorance.
First, the so-called "rapture" occurs "when He comes". That is the single resurrection.
Second, you need to read Matt 24-
30 “Then will appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven. And then all the peoples of the earth will mourn when they see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory.
31 And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.
v.30 proves that everyone on earth will SEE the Second Advent. No doubt due to the technology of today (CNN, etc). The cameras will be a rolling.
v.31 proves that all the living believers will be "gathered". Do you understand what it means to "gather"? Regardless, it means to bring together in ONE place. And that is local.
Sure. The horses won't be galloping all over the earth. Everyone knows that.
So you are demanding verses that say what you demand them to say? Nonsense.
Tribulation saints will be resurrected (given glorified bodies) at the Second Advent, AFTER the Trib. Rev 20:4,5.
Proving that clouds will be involved in both. Glad we got that cleared up, huh.
Since Revelation isn't chronological, it is easy to understand that ch 14 is a look ahead chapter.
The impossible view is pretrib rapture.
It is your camp that "reframed Noah".
I don't need anything. I've got the Bible which teaches there will be a SINGLE resurrection of all the saved. Your camp misplaces it before the Trib, which leaves out ALL the martyred believers during the Trib.
Wny anyone would see either Noah or Lot removed before a judgment as some kind of 'rapture' is weird.
Neither one left the earth, which is the primary emphasis of the "pretrib rapture" theory.
Oh, and neither one received a glorified body.
So your comparisons are laughable.
But the most laughable is that the "pretrib rapture" has NO VERSES showing Jesus taking glorified believers to heaven.
Boom.
Second, you need to read Matt 24-
30 “Then will appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven. And then all the peoples of the earth will mourn when they see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory.
31 And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.
v.30 proves that everyone on earth will SEE the Second Advent. No doubt due to the technology of today (CNN, etc). The cameras will be a rolling.
v.31 proves that all the living believers will be "gathered". Do you understand what it means to "gather"? Regardless, it means to bring together in ONE place. And that is local.
Sure. The horses won't be galloping all over the earth. Everyone knows that.
So you are demanding verses that say what you demand them to say? Nonsense.
Tribulation saints will be resurrected (given glorified bodies) at the Second Advent, AFTER the Trib. Rev 20:4,5.
Proving that clouds will be involved in both. Glad we got that cleared up, huh.
Since Revelation isn't chronological, it is easy to understand that ch 14 is a look ahead chapter.
The impossible view is pretrib rapture.
It is your camp that "reframed Noah".
I don't need anything. I've got the Bible which teaches there will be a SINGLE resurrection of all the saved. Your camp misplaces it before the Trib, which leaves out ALL the martyred believers during the Trib.
Wny anyone would see either Noah or Lot removed before a judgment as some kind of 'rapture' is weird.
Neither one left the earth, which is the primary emphasis of the "pretrib rapture" theory.
Oh, and neither one received a glorified body.
So your comparisons are laughable.
But the most laughable is that the "pretrib rapture" has NO VERSES showing Jesus taking glorified believers to heaven.
Boom.
FreeGrace2 said:
You need to let go of your "multiple" first fruits ideas. They have NO relevance to a rapture.
The subject of 1 Cor 15 is the resurrection of saved people.
1 Cor 15:23 - But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him.
So, we see that ONLY Jesus Christ is called the firstfruits. And what follows is EVERYONE else who belong to Him. And that is WHEN He returns to earth, which is the Second Advent.
Acts 26:23 - that the Messiah would suffer and, as the first to rise from the dead, would bring the message of light to his own people and to the Gentiles.”
This is why Jesus is called the firstfruits. He is the FIRST human to receive a glorifed body.
ALL other believers will receive theirs "when He comes" at the Second Advent.
Case solved.
lol back atcha.
What's funny is your misunderstanding of "firstfruits" in Rev 14. Regarding the SINGLE resurrection of believers (Luke 14:14, Acts 24:15, 1 Cor 15:23) Jesus is the FIRST human to receive a glorified body (Acts 26:23).
Whatever "firstfruits" means in Rev 14 CANNOT refer to receiving a resurrection body. Believers, all of them, will receive a glorified body when He comes", which is the Second Advent.
And you haven't disproven that.
You need to let go of your "multiple" first fruits ideas. They have NO relevance to a rapture.
The subject of 1 Cor 15 is the resurrection of saved people.
1 Cor 15:23 - But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him.
So, we see that ONLY Jesus Christ is called the firstfruits. And what follows is EVERYONE else who belong to Him. And that is WHEN He returns to earth, which is the Second Advent.
Acts 26:23 - that the Messiah would suffer and, as the first to rise from the dead, would bring the message of light to his own people and to the Gentiles.”
This is why Jesus is called the firstfruits. He is the FIRST human to receive a glorifed body.
ALL other believers will receive theirs "when He comes" at the Second Advent.
Case solved.
lol back atcha.
What's funny is your misunderstanding of "firstfruits" in Rev 14. Regarding the SINGLE resurrection of believers (Luke 14:14, Acts 24:15, 1 Cor 15:23) Jesus is the FIRST human to receive a glorified body (Acts 26:23).
Whatever "firstfruits" means in Rev 14 CANNOT refer to receiving a resurrection body. Believers, all of them, will receive a glorified body when He comes", which is the Second Advent.
And you haven't disproven that.
Matthew 24, Jesus, made it clear He only Returns one more time. Paul answers a question from those in Thessalonica about whether they would see their dead loved ones again and if those dead loved ones would go to Heaven. All Paul did was explain how the Process would take place + Paul made it clear it was at the Lord's Second Coming (Matthew 24).
Nowhere is there actual Scripture that states a Secret Coming. So why would anyone believe such a thing?
Nowhere is there actual Scripture that states a Secret Coming. So why would anyone believe such a thing?
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To be clear, the pretrib 'rapture' teaching has Jesus taking all the glorified believers to heaven. And THAT is not found in Scripture.
If it is, please quote the verses. I've been asking pretribbers to quote such teaching. None has risen to the job. Some keep mumbling about Noah, Lot, etc. Which doesn't work.
No, the reason we can't justifiy the "rapture concept" is that Scripture doesn't speak of it, meaning Jesus taking glorified believers to heaven.
If He will do that, why didn't Paul include that in the most quoted passage on "the rapture"; 1 Thess 4? That would have been the PERFECT place to include that information.
If it is, please quote the verses. I've been asking pretribbers to quote such teaching. None has risen to the job. Some keep mumbling about Noah, Lot, etc. Which doesn't work.
No, the reason we can't justifiy the "rapture concept" is that Scripture doesn't speak of it, meaning Jesus taking glorified believers to heaven.
If He will do that, why didn't Paul include that in the most quoted passage on "the rapture"; 1 Thess 4? That would have been the PERFECT place to include that information.
OK, so what that Arnold would quote the verses above from memory. The question is: why doesn't he realize that they teach there will be only ONE resurrection of the saved?
Pretribbers have to admit there are several events of resurrection because they start before the Trib. And then they have to deal with saved people during the Trib, and then assuming people will get saved during the Millennium. So there's 3 at least.
Yet, the Bible is clear. There is just ONE.
If you believe there are more than 1 resurrection events for believers, you need to do 2 things:
1. exegete the verses above to prove that they don't teach a single one.
2. quote verses showing resurrections in different time periods.
That would solve it all. And I would appreciate it.
Just a thought: I don't want to be wrong any more than you or Abs, or anyone else. So I stick with what Scripture says plainly.
Pretribbers have to admit there are several events of resurrection because they start before the Trib. And then they have to deal with saved people during the Trib, and then assuming people will get saved during the Millennium. So there's 3 at least.
Yet, the Bible is clear. There is just ONE.
If you believe there are more than 1 resurrection events for believers, you need to do 2 things:
1. exegete the verses above to prove that they don't teach a single one.
2. quote verses showing resurrections in different time periods.
That would solve it all. And I would appreciate it.
Just a thought: I don't want to be wrong any more than you or Abs, or anyone else. So I stick with what Scripture says plainly.
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OK, then quote specific verses that show clearly resurrections of different groups. I don't believe there are.
And if there are, they contradict the verses I've been quoting/citing that say there is a resurrection (singular) for the saved.
Oh, just stop this childish accusations.
Just prove your theory with clear Scripture. That is what I have done. Can you?
Making claims that "this has been covered over and over again" is worthless and useless. So stop it please.
Just give us the verses that actualy say what you keep claiming.
That is what hasn't been done.
And if there are, they contradict the verses I've been quoting/citing that say there is a resurrection (singular) for the saved.
Oh, just stop this childish accusations.
Just prove your theory with clear Scripture. That is what I have done. Can you?
Making claims that "this has been covered over and over again" is worthless and useless. So stop it please.
Just give us the verses that actualy say what you keep claiming.
That is what hasn't been done.
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Pre-trib is a lie from satan that christians swallowed - hook, line and sinker.
No one can find a scripture that says: " Christ will pre-trib rapture His Church/Body/Elect/Saints before the Resurrection."
No one can find a scripture that says: "Christ will pre-trib rapture His Saints/Elect/Bride before the antichrist".
No one can find a scripture that says: "Christ will return multiple times for multiple raptures and/or resurrections."
Adding to God's words or taking away from them is SIN and of the Devil and those who do will suffer the consequences.
Deuteronomy 4:1-2 , Proverbs 30:5-6 , Revelation 22:18-19
I testify to everyone who hears the words of prophecy in this book: If anyone adds to them, God will add to him the plagues described in this book. And if anyone takes away from the words of this book of prophecy, God will take away his share in the tree of life and the holy city, which are described in this book.
No one can find a scripture that says: " Christ will pre-trib rapture His Church/Body/Elect/Saints before the Resurrection."
No one can find a scripture that says: "Christ will pre-trib rapture His Saints/Elect/Bride before the antichrist".
No one can find a scripture that says: "Christ will return multiple times for multiple raptures and/or resurrections."
Adding to God's words or taking away from them is SIN and of the Devil and those who do will suffer the consequences.
Deuteronomy 4:1-2 , Proverbs 30:5-6 , Revelation 22:18-19
I testify to everyone who hears the words of prophecy in this book: If anyone adds to them, God will add to him the plagues described in this book. And if anyone takes away from the words of this book of prophecy, God will take away his share in the tree of life and the holy city, which are described in this book.
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So because there are no Scripture that claims actual pre-trib rapture, but it is believed because no Scripture claims the Church goes through the Tribulation, there must be a Secret Coming?
How about, Jesus said He returns after Tribulation, Revelation 16 shows after God's Wrath Christ returns like a Thief?
That's 2 Verses that explains Christ returns afterwards, not any time before. And that means people (like Paul mentions) who are Alive and Remain will be Caught Up.
There's actually several Verses explaining why we remain until after Tribulation and God's Wrath than there are comparing that not one single Verse that states Secret Coming or we leave before.
If the Bible is Literal, it Literally is claiming we Remain until after Tribulation.
How about, Jesus said He returns after Tribulation, Revelation 16 shows after God's Wrath Christ returns like a Thief?
That's 2 Verses that explains Christ returns afterwards, not any time before. And that means people (like Paul mentions) who are Alive and Remain will be Caught Up.
There's actually several Verses explaining why we remain until after Tribulation and God's Wrath than there are comparing that not one single Verse that states Secret Coming or we leave before.
If the Bible is Literal, it Literally is claiming we Remain until after Tribulation.
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How about this, Paul explains a mystery to us concerning the rapture in 1 Cor. 15, then gives more detail in 1-2 Thes.
A biblical mystery is something that has not been known by man but is now revealed.
Paul explains other mysteries in his epistles that were not previously known.
The rapture Paul explains and the Second Coming are not the same event.
A biblical mystery is something that has not been known by man but is now revealed.
Paul explains other mysteries in his epistles that were not previously known.
The rapture Paul explains and the Second Coming are not the same event.
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