Jesus is God, Epiphany

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hopesprings said:
Except that it was Jesus who delivered the Israelites from the hand of Pharaoh in Egypt: [SUP]5 [/SUP]Now I want to remind you, although you once fully knew it, that Jesus, who saved[SUP][c][/SUP] a people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed those who did not believe. Jude 1:5
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Jud 1:5 I will therefore put you in remembrance, though ye once knew this, how that the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed them that believed not.


You have just quoted from the 'Twisted Lies Cause We WANT it to Say This' Bible
There are a few of them it is sad to say -Catholic Public Versionm DRBm ESVm LEBm and (I'm sad to say) the NET Bible
all translate

Let me put it this way - a couple of texts were found that said Jesus and so the majority of texts were assumed to mean the same thing.

Hocum.

I'd ask this.

Do you REALLY think God said I AM and let 2000 years go by before telling people the truth?
What type of God do you believe in?
I believe in a complex one (I struggle with the pain in the world that goes undealt with by a being that could)

But a God that pretends to be something He is not?
No.

Either the Bible is wrong - which I don't believe as I was an atheist when I started to read it and became a Christian reading it from start to finish - I looked to find someone to talk to after I finished to be baptised.

Or - you guys are wrong.
And I REALLY don't know how God is going to feel about that.
HE TELLS YOU IN HIS WORD - BY HIS POWER - JESUS IS THE SON OF GOD.

And you say - we are told by others Jesus is God.

If you think they are the same you have no idea what the crucifiction meant.
If I was God would a brief foray to humanness with a few hours of painful death be a real sacrifice?
Knowing you were immortal anyway would it be a real hardship?

You have no idea who Jesus is or what God is.

A MAN who could have used the power his father (GOD) gave him to lift himself from the ordeal went through REAL pain. Because his father wanted it that way.

Miracles were done by him with power from his FATHER. Not from himself. He said that!

Keep to your pagan ideas by all means.
But DO NOT pretend they are Biblically DERIVED.

They can, like almost any idea, be Biblically SUPPORTED to some extent but they do not COME from the BIBLE.

Even the term came from an African bishop (African bishops like those in Alexandria were very based upon Plato's philosphies too) who later said the idea was WRONG.
He became a Montanist apparently. I just looked them up and saw this on Wikipedia
"Montanists claimed their revelation direct from the Holy Spirit could supersede the authority of Jesus or Paul or anyone else"
Which seems to be true for half the people here - though I guess they aren't Montanists too :D
 
I agree wirh Kardiaoangelous and Bookreader. At times we get so caught up with how we think God is & how we think he should be. But the fact is that it's not about wat you or wat I think, it's about what God says. If Jesus wanted us to say that he's God, he would have commansed us to. But he didn't. The Word of God shouldn't back up our beliefs, it's the other way around. I'm only going by what the Bible says, an action that is in fact very different from searching for Bible quotes that qualify my claims. Take the Word of God for what it says, not for what you think it's implications are.
 
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Maranatha-TheLordIsComing said:
They are one, Jesus is God in the flesh, why is that so hard to understand. Isn't that why he was crucified because he claimed to be one with God?
Click to expand...

And yet the disciple being made one as they are one does not require the disciples to literally be each other? That seems like a contradiction to say oneness means one thing between Jesus and his Father and another way between the disciples when the scripture plainly told us that is just as Jesus and his Father are one.
 
The Godhead: Three, Two, One, Share Omnipotence with Two Others?

Isaiah 45:5-6

5 I am the Lord, and there is no other; besides me there is no god. I arm you, though you do not know me, 6 so that they may know, from the rising of the sun and from the west, that there is no one besides me; I am the Lord, and there is no other.

Anyone that lay claims to believing that God is three separate Persons making up the Godhead is (within their own minds) limiting the power and awesomeness of the Living and Great “I AM”.

They who question the capabilities of the Creator say allot about the individual's lack of understanding of their own existence. A simple approach to understanding the Godhead is to begin with His image. His image is a visual of who He Is.

Psalm 139:14I will praise Thee, for I am fearfully and wonderfully made; marvelous are Thy works, and that my soul knoweth right well.

God has an image and I believe God formed me in His image just as he did with Adam and Eve.

Jeremiah 1:5; “Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; …” Being formed by and in the image of God Almighty is a great event horizon happened and a privilege that only He as the Creator can give.

I believe that God is the sovereign source of all life. He is a spirit by existence and without boundary or limitation of physics, space, and time. God has an image and it is by that “Image” he fashioned and created humanity—male and female alike. Just as He made us “like Him”, He shaped and formed himself a "Physical Body", not from the earth as Adam, but formed in a woman’s womb. In her womb, God created the miracle sinless body and called it “Son” because it was a conception of His spirit. God possessed that body and miraculously became a unique creation as both man and God.

So, what is God’s Image? The answer to this question is “Son”; e.g., Jesus. Furthermore, Jesus is more than God’s image and “substance” from God; He is God in the Flesh now glorified and inseparable until He chooses to change.

Colossians 1:12-15 (KJV)

12 Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light:
13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:
14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:
15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:

Flesh and blood (carnal minds) cannot comprehend the realm of spiritual matters without a means to do so. The way Christians can comprehend the spiritually matters of God is performed by faith in God’s Word and the guidance by the Holy Spirit; never our own understanding. This is neither “spiritualism” nor necromancy by any means.

Colossians 2:8-9

8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ. 9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. 10 And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:

Any human being that states they believe God exists and cannot accept that God came in the Flesh is void of understanding himself or herself as a creation made by God. Concerning "my" personal conversations with others, many believed that God made humans but is too Holy to make himself a (Temple) body; including, that He is too "expansive in existence" to limit himself to become like a man; too aloof to dwell, move, and have His being in that body and continue omnipresent existence.

Personal request: This is important subject matter because there are others that are sincere concerning who God is and if Jesus is the "I AM'. So please, continue this subject, it is good dialogue. There are others reading this thread and are learning by it.
 
Bookreader said:
Jud 1:5 I will therefore put you in remembrance, though ye once knew this, how that the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed them that believed not.


You have just quoted from the 'Twisted Lies Cause We WANT it to Say This' Bible
There are a few of them it is sad to say -Catholic Public Versionm DRBm ESVm LEBm and (I'm sad to say) the NET Bible
all translate

Let me put it this way - a couple of texts were found that said Jesus and so the majority of texts were assumed to mean the same thing.

Hocum.

I'd ask this.

Do you REALLY think God said I AM and let 2000 years go by before telling people the truth?
What type of God do you believe in?
I believe in a complex one (I struggle with the pain in the world that goes undealt with by a being that could)

But a God that pretends to be something He is not?
No.

Either the Bible is wrong - which I don't believe as I was an atheist when I started to read it and became a Christian reading it from start to finish - I looked to find someone to talk to after I finished to be baptised.

Or - you guys are wrong.
And I REALLY don't know how God is going to feel about that.
HE TELLS YOU IN HIS WORD - BY HIS POWER - JESUS IS THE SON OF GOD.

And you say - we are told by others Jesus is God.

If you think they are the same you have no idea what the crucifiction meant.
If I was God would a brief foray to humanness with a few hours of painful death be a real sacrifice?
Knowing you were immortal anyway would it be a real hardship?

You have no idea who Jesus is or what God is.

A MAN who could have used the power his father (GOD) gave him to lift himself from the ordeal went through REAL pain. Because his father wanted it that way.

Miracles were done by him with power from his FATHER. Not from himself. He said that!

Keep to your pagan ideas by all means.
But DO NOT pretend they are Biblically DERIVED.

They can, like almost any idea, be Biblically SUPPORTED to some extent but they do not COME from the BIBLE.

Even the term came from an African bishop (African bishops like those in Alexandria were very based upon Plato's philosphies too) who later said the idea was WRONG.
He became a Montanist apparently. I just looked them up and saw this on Wikipedia
"Montanists claimed their revelation direct from the Holy Spirit could supersede the authority of Jesus or Paul or anyone else"
Which seems to be true for half the people here - though I guess they aren't Montanists too :D
Click to expand...


What a blind view, O, this isn't yah-weh, it's adonai, oh you're wrong, twisted scriptures, Maybe on the day of the Lord, you will finally see.
 
[h=3]John 1[/h]New International Version (NIV)
The Word Became Flesh
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

John 1
Amplified Bible (AMP)
1 In the beginning [before all time] was the Word ([SUP][a][/SUP]Christ), and the Word was with God, and the Word was God [SUP][b][/SUP]Himself.


  1. John 1:1 In John’s vision (Rev. 19), he sees Christ returning as Warrior-Messiah-King, and “the title by which He is called is The Word of God... and Lord of lords” (Rev. 19:13, 16).
  2. John 1:1 Charles B. Williams, The New Testament: A Translation in the Language of the People: “God” appears first in the Greek word order in this phrase, denoting emphasis—so “God Himself.”


John 1
Holman Christian Standard Bible (HCSB)
Prologue

1 In the beginning was the Word,[SUP][a][/SUP]
and the Word was with God,
and the Word was God


  1. John 1:1 The Word (Gk Logos) is a title for Jesus as the communication and the revealer of God the Father; Jn 1:14,18; Rv 19:13.
 
Perhaps all believers should perform their own exhaustive study on this topic while seeking the Father's guidance?

It would seem that arguments can be made for a duality of understandings, however, I do not believe the Law and Prophets and the Gospels would contradict each other. Therefore, by default, there must be an understanding (complete or incomplete) of truth that rests with the believer.

I have faith that the Father will enlighten each of us to this truth if we turn to Him for guidance.

Peace and love to all of you. :)
 
Another account of scriptural evidence pertaining to the Word of God,

​

Show Commentary

John 20:24-29

New International Version (NIV)

Jesus Appears to Thomas

[SUP]24 [/SUP]Now Thomas (also known as Didymus[SUP][a][/SUP]), one of the Twelve, was not with the disciples when Jesus came. [SUP]25 [/SUP]So the other disciples told him, “We have seen the Lord!”
But he said to them, “Unless I see the nail marks in his hands and put my finger where the nails were, and put my hand into his side,I will not believe.”
[SUP]26 [/SUP]A week later his disciples were in the house again, and Thomas was with them. Though the doors were locked, Jesus came and stood among them and said, “Peace be with you!” [SUP]27 [/SUP]Then he said to Thomas, “Put your finger here; see my hands. Reach out your hand and put it into my side. Stop doubting and believe.”
[SUP]28 [/SUP]Thomas said to him, “My Lord and my God!”
[SUP]29 [/SUP]Then Jesus told him, “Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.”
Footnotes:


  1. John 20:24 Thomas (Aramaic) and Didymus (Greek) both meantwin.

 
Maranatha-TheLordIsComing said:
Another account of scriptural evidence pertaining to the Word of God,
John 20:24-29
Click to expand...
Thomas here confesses that Jesus had indeed risen from the dead.
Thomas, a Jew, used a mode of expression common in the Old Testament in which true representatives of God are referred to as God.

Angels are called God Gen 16:7; Gen 22:8,11,15; Exo 23:20-21
Moses is referred to as a 'god' to Pharoah Exo 7:1
The judges of Israel are referred to as gods Psa 82:1,6

In Jewish tradition a person who is representative of a master goes "in the name of" their master and can (and is) called by the name of the master.
It is extended to sons (or even descendants) being called by their ancestor's name.
For example, we see many times people called Israel Or Judah who are hundreds or thousands of years later than Jacob/Israel or his sons.

This is a tricky verse to understand and, were it alone it would seem to be the evidence people think it to be.
However when one studies the whole Bible it is seen in a different way.
After all, just a few verses earlier in John we have
John 20:17 Jesus said to her, "Do not cling to me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father; but go to my brothers and say to them, 'I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.'"
Click to expand...
Here Jesus is saying he is returning to his God, clearly stating he is not God.

So a single verse should not be used without looking at the whole picture.

And it is what we see as the whole picture where we disagree.
I am assuming that you derive your beliefs from the Bible only and were not taught the trinity. I've not yet found a single person that has admitted it is a doctrine they were taught.
 
soldierofchrist4ever24 said:
Those who deny Christs Deity are heretics, and need to be prayed for.... Romans1:16 someone had to say it and i am unashamed of my Lord Jesus Christ

in Christ brother Travis
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this is a good thread - in that we see who believes what.
takes awhile sometimes, doesn't it brother:)
sooner or later though....they can't help themselves.
 
Bookreader said:
Thomas here confesses that Jesus had indeed risen from the dead.
Thomas, a Jew, used a mode of expression common in the Old Testament in which true representatives of God are referred to as God.

Angels are called God Gen 16:7; Gen 22:8,11,15; Exo 23:20-21
Moses is referred to as a 'god' to Pharoah Exo 7:1
The judges of Israel are referred to as gods Psa 82:1,6

In Jewish tradition a person who is representative of a master goes "in the name of" their master and can (and is) called by the name of the master.
It is extended to sons (or even descendants) being called by their ancestor's name.
For example, we see many times people called Israel Or Judah who are hundreds or thousands of years later than Jacob/Israel or his sons.

This is a tricky verse to understand and, were it alone it would seem to be the evidence people think it to be.
However when one studies the whole Bible it is seen in a different way.
After all, just a few verses earlier in John we have

Here Jesus is saying he is returning to his God, clearly stating he is not God.

So a single verse should not be used without looking at the whole picture.

And it is what we see as the whole picture where we disagree.
I am assuming that you derive your beliefs from the Bible only and were not taught the trinity. I've not yet found a single person that has admitted it is a doctrine they were taught.
Click to expand...


you're words are by no means anymore persuasive than an atheists to me, you don't believe God are 3 in 1 obviously, and you were banned and have 0 rep, which also doesn't make it any more likely that I would receive your words as edification, and these are some very accurate proofs, even if I'm saying LORD is Lord, and those who have seen the Lord hath seen the LORD, they are truly 3 in 1. It is one God, It's all scriptural, and the Holy Spirit hath led my mouth to confess it.
 
To understand God's nature I don't have to look very far. We are created in God's image. My name is Joey. I am one person. I have a body and a soul and a spirit. Created in God's image. God also has a body(Jesus) a soul (the Father) and a spirit.

What does the word tell us? God is spirit. It tells us the spirit proceeds from the Father and Son. My spirit proceeds from my soul and my body. All of the arguments here are explained simply enough. The arguments against Jesus deity are purely physical arguments. How can Jesus be God if he was tempted? God is not tempted. Jesus as the body of God but also taking on the form of a man. The form of a man is always subject to temptation. The simple answer to that question is...the fullness of God in bodily form.

Lets talk about Jesus praying to God. Doesn't your body talk to you? Mine tells me things all the time. It says I am hungry. It says I want sex. It says I am sleepy. It says my bladder is full. So those of you who question how Jesus could pray to God; are you just considering the physical nature and not recognizing we are more than physical, as is God?

I have been through this discussion many times. I base what I believe from scripture. I stand ready to offer anyone reason for what I believe however, I accept always that I can be wrong. I have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. I lean on God's spirit. My confidence is in God not in my own thinking or beliefs. I do act according to what I believe.

Do you recognize your own nature? Are you purely physical? are you purely spiritual? Are any of us purely soul? Of course we are not. Many of us though still try to put God inside this box we call our minds. An infinite God can not fit into a finite mind. This is why it is written, God wants all men to be saved and COME TO A KNOWLEDGE of the truth. It is also written; "for now we know in part. Then we shall know fully even as we have been fully known." Again it is written, " trust God with all your heart and lean not on your own understanding." I consider that I do not KNOW anything. I do BELIEVE I have a KNOWLEDGE OF the truth but I do not KNOW. IF you think you know and you are certain you are right, maybe you should ask yourself a simple question. Am I seeking the truth? God showed me very clearly and very painfully how wrong I was to be certain about anything. I was certain. I thought I knew. I was 100% sure. It was very important. I was completely wrong.
It was a horrifically painful experience. It affected me and my family in dramatically wicked ways. I pray that all of you make your spirits teachable. Always be willing to be wrong. God is always right. I don't have to trust my mind or thinking and in fact today I know I shouldn't. I don't want any of you to suffer the tragedy and pain I inflicted upon myself my family because I was so wrong. Can a spirit be teachable if we claim to know? Knowledge puffs up but love builds up.

How many kingdoms are there? God's kingdom and Satan's kingdom and then multitudes of kingdoms of mankind. We know from scripture ALL kingdoms are subject to God. The only Kingdom that is everlasting is God's. Who is your king? My king is Jesus. It is not called the kingdom of Jesus, it is called the kingdom of God. How then could anyone other than God be in charge of it? I live in the kingdom of God. It is in me. It is a kingdom of love joy and peace in the holy spirit. Jesus is my king and my savior and a physical representation of my God.

Paul tells us clearly to beware of those who come and preach a Jesus other than the Jesus he preached. Paul was an elite Pharisee. HE understood what this sect of Jews were preaching. It was blasphemy in his view because they were claiming a man was God. We all know Saul sought out "Christians" to jail them or put them to death for blasphemy. Paul would not have been doing this if Christians were not proclaiming Jesus was God.

I am writing words on a page. The thoughts come from my soul. They are communicated by my spirit which is also part of my soul. My spirit uses my body to type. Jesus was resurrected bodily. We know this because He showed Thomas His wounds. His flesh did not decay. That which is perfect is not subject to death. Death is the wage of sin. We know our flesh is condemned. God's gift to us is eternal life. When we are resurrected it will be with a spiritual body, neither male nor female. Soul and spirit with a spiritual body? Gotta say that doesn't fit into my head! Lots of things scripture teaches that my mind really cant comprehend but I do believe.

All glory honor power and praise always be to our God and Father.
 
If Jesus is just physical form, and he prays to God (himself ) this still doesn't add up, what is the SOUL inside of Jesus?
 
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My thoughts here, Jesus left the glory and position he had and was born in a stinking manger. He did that for one purpose, Man could not save himself. So, God became a man for the sole purpose of giving Himself as sacrifice on the cross that we might be saved. He is 100% God and 100% man.
 
So when he cast all of his Wrath on Jesus on the cross, he was essentually slapping himself in the face for our sins?
 
If He reckoned it from us. We have no hope. Can you stand righteous before Him, if we could,there was no need for Him to do what He did.
 
He was made a little lower than the angels for a time, to be made man, without blood there is no remission of sins, who is Like our God?, who can stand sinless except our Christ, His Christ, the Son of the Father, and don't forget He was anointed with the Holy Spirit, that same Spirit of Power that raised Christ from the dead, but now, the Comforter is with us, that Spirit of Truth, now that the Son has ascended back into heaven to be set on high with the Father. at His own right hand. and He is coming again, only to take vengeance on His adversaries which it ends quite abruptly, there is no chance for the other side, Revelation 20:7-10New King James Version (NKJV)

Satanic Rebellion Crushed[SUP]7 [/SUP]Now when the thousand years have expired, Satan will be released from his prison [SUP]8 [/SUP]and will go out to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle, whose number is as the sand of the sea. [SUP]9 [/SUP]They went up on the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city. And fire came down from God out of heaven and devoured them. [SUP]10 [/SUP]The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where[SUP][a][/SUP] the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.
Footnotes:


  1. Revelation 20:10 NU-Text and M-Text add also.






When He sent His Son to die on the cross for our sins, It was Him that only did the will of the Father, and also the Holy Spirit of God that will perfect us in Jesus Christ.
 
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If it wasn't Jesus who purchased us in His precious blood to make us pure and blameless before God, and who was God enough to forgive sins, and do the perfect will of His Father, we would have no communion with the Father, and would have no way to be saved, Jesus is the way, the truth, and the life, no one comes to the Father but through Him. He is the God of our Salvation He is the God of all creation.
 
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