Jesus Is Our Truth, Reward, And Faithfulness So We Can Lie, Steal, and Fornicate?
- Thread starter Phoneman-777
- Start date
-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
When did you first stop believing the "many" of Matthew 24:12 KJV were lost?
Was it when I showed you they are "saints"?
Good to hear, bro. Can we agree that you believed the real God was going to consign the "many" to the Lake of Fire" until you found out they were saints, and then had to revise your theology because when it comes to salvation, you view Scripture through the rose colored glasses of OSAS instead of through the clear lens of Holy Spirit discernment?yeah we know.
but i'm into talking about the real God.
Num 20:11
Hhmmmm........Well actually they were supposed to speak to the rock. But Moses alone is one who struck the rock, twice. In doing so, evidently he ruined Gods intention to frame a prophetical type of the Lord Jesus Christ. Consequently (and tragically) God punished him.
I'm not sure why that cropped up but I thought I would comment about it.
@2ndTimothyGroup here is a compiled list of examples that show the Biblical distinction between God's Law of Ten Commandments and the Mosaic Law. I've forgotten some examples over the years, but if they come to me, I'll let you know 
I. The Mosaic Law was written by the hand of Moses, written on scrolls, placed outside the Ark, and was against them by virtue of the penalties and curses contained therein (Deuteronomy 31:24-26 KJV)....
...but in contrast, the Ten Commandment Law of God was written with His finger (Exodus 31:18 KJV), on both sides of stone tablets (Exodus 32:15 KJV), placed inside the Ark (Exodus 25:16 KJV), and contained blessings, not curses (Exodus 20:11 KJV; Exodus 20:12 KJV).
II. In 2 Kings 21:8 KJV, God promises Israel permanent residence if they keep His Law and the Mosaic law.
III. In 2 Chronicles 33:8 KJV, God promises the same if they will obey His Law and the Mosaic Law.
IV. In Daniel 9:11 KJV, he confessed that his people disobeyed the God's Law and the Mosaic Law.
V. In Deuteronomy 4:13-14 KJV, Moses says God commanded the people to keep His Law and commanded Moses to give them the Mosaic Law.
VI. God called the yearly Israelite Feast Days "your sabbaths" (Leviticus 23:24 KJV; Leviticus 23:32 KJV; Leviticus 23:39 KJV) and declared them to be "besides" the Sabbaths of the Lord (Leviticus 23:37-39 KJV) contained in the Ten Commandments, a clear distinction between what pertained to God's Law and the Mosaic Law.
VII. In Romans 7:12 KJV, Paul refers to God's Law (identified as such by his reference to the Tenth Commandment in Romans 7:7 KJV) as "holy, just, and good", but refers to the Mosaic Law concerning the Levitical priesthood as a "carnal" commandment in Hebrews 7:16 KJV. If there's only one law, how can it be both "holy, just, and good" and "carnal" at the same time?
VIII. The Ten Commandments existed before Mount Sinai. It is obvious that:
Cain knew murder was wrong
Abraham knew lying was wrong
Rachel knew stealing was wrong
Jacob knew idolatry in the form of jewelry was wrong
Joseph knew adultery was wrong
Israel knew Sabbath breaking was wrong (Exodus 16:28 KJV) long before they got anywhere near Mt. Sinai.
Abraham kept God's "commandments, statutes, and laws"
IX. Paul says in Galatians 3:19 KJV that the Mosaic Law was "added because of transgression" -- transgression of an already existing law: the Ten Commandments -- and this added Mosaic Law was to last "until the Seed should come". When Jesus was crucified, the Mosaic Law was nailed to the Cross with Him (Colossians 2:14-17 KJV) and the "sabbath" Paul speaks of here refers to the yearly Feast Day sabbaths of the Mosaic Law that was "against" them (Colossians 2:14 KJV; Deuteronomy 31:26 KJV) -- the Sabbath of the Lord, along with the rest of the Ten Commandments will "stand fast forever and ever" (Psalms 111:7:8 KJV).
XI. God called the commandments He spoke at Sinai with His mouth "My Commandments" which Matthew says was Jesus Who did that (Psalms 78:1-2 KJV; Matthew 13:34-35 KJV). The Mosaic Law was called for that reason: it was the law that Moses wrote.
I. The Mosaic Law was written by the hand of Moses, written on scrolls, placed outside the Ark, and was against them by virtue of the penalties and curses contained therein (Deuteronomy 31:24-26 KJV)....
...but in contrast, the Ten Commandment Law of God was written with His finger (Exodus 31:18 KJV), on both sides of stone tablets (Exodus 32:15 KJV), placed inside the Ark (Exodus 25:16 KJV), and contained blessings, not curses (Exodus 20:11 KJV; Exodus 20:12 KJV).
II. In 2 Kings 21:8 KJV, God promises Israel permanent residence if they keep His Law and the Mosaic law.
III. In 2 Chronicles 33:8 KJV, God promises the same if they will obey His Law and the Mosaic Law.
IV. In Daniel 9:11 KJV, he confessed that his people disobeyed the God's Law and the Mosaic Law.
V. In Deuteronomy 4:13-14 KJV, Moses says God commanded the people to keep His Law and commanded Moses to give them the Mosaic Law.
VI. God called the yearly Israelite Feast Days "your sabbaths" (Leviticus 23:24 KJV; Leviticus 23:32 KJV; Leviticus 23:39 KJV) and declared them to be "besides" the Sabbaths of the Lord (Leviticus 23:37-39 KJV) contained in the Ten Commandments, a clear distinction between what pertained to God's Law and the Mosaic Law.
VII. In Romans 7:12 KJV, Paul refers to God's Law (identified as such by his reference to the Tenth Commandment in Romans 7:7 KJV) as "holy, just, and good", but refers to the Mosaic Law concerning the Levitical priesthood as a "carnal" commandment in Hebrews 7:16 KJV. If there's only one law, how can it be both "holy, just, and good" and "carnal" at the same time?
VIII. The Ten Commandments existed before Mount Sinai. It is obvious that:
Cain knew murder was wrong
Abraham knew lying was wrong
Rachel knew stealing was wrong
Jacob knew idolatry in the form of jewelry was wrong
Joseph knew adultery was wrong
Israel knew Sabbath breaking was wrong (Exodus 16:28 KJV) long before they got anywhere near Mt. Sinai.
Abraham kept God's "commandments, statutes, and laws"
IX. Paul says in Galatians 3:19 KJV that the Mosaic Law was "added because of transgression" -- transgression of an already existing law: the Ten Commandments -- and this added Mosaic Law was to last "until the Seed should come". When Jesus was crucified, the Mosaic Law was nailed to the Cross with Him (Colossians 2:14-17 KJV) and the "sabbath" Paul speaks of here refers to the yearly Feast Day sabbaths of the Mosaic Law that was "against" them (Colossians 2:14 KJV; Deuteronomy 31:26 KJV) -- the Sabbath of the Lord, along with the rest of the Ten Commandments will "stand fast forever and ever" (Psalms 111:7:8 KJV).
XI. God called the commandments He spoke at Sinai with His mouth "My Commandments" which Matthew says was Jesus Who did that (Psalms 78:1-2 KJV; Matthew 13:34-35 KJV). The Mosaic Law was called for that reason: it was the law that Moses wrote.
i'll talk to you about it then
i think you'll actually get something from it
it's a really interesting and complex thing happening here.
what was Moses expecting to happen? he's not stupid. he understands what he's supposed to do and isn't under some kind of impression that God will fail to act if he does what he's been instructed.
so Moses isn't an idiot. this isn't a mistake. this is Moses trying to bring something about.
God judged both Moses & Aaron for this -- so Aaron is complicit. Moses & Aaron both have a plan
Then the LORD spoke to Moses and Aaron, “Because you did not believe Me, to hallow Me in the eyes of the children of Israel, therefore you shall not bring this assembly into the land which I have given them.”
(Numbers 20:12)
God says they did not believe Him, that they did not hallow Him in the eyes of Israel. He's talking about the striking of the rock twice.
speaking to the rock was supposed to hallow the name of the LORD. did they not believe He would be hallowed? did they expect water to come from the rock? it had happened once before. Moses & Aaron both were not ignorant of the power of God and had seen many miracles. i don't imagine for a second they didn't believe God would provide water -- in fact they were sure of it.
instead of speaking to the Rock, Moses spoke to the Israelites, harshly:
And Moses and Aaron gathered the assembly together before the rock; and he said to them,
“Hear now, you rebels! Must we bring water for you out of this rock?”
(Numbers 20:11)
what did they expect to happen? did they think God would give water if he struck the rock instead of speaking to it? did they think God would not give water if they disobeyed? what happens if they don't give water? the people kill them. what happens if the people kill them? does God kill the people?
are Moses & Aaron fed up, trying to get the people destroyed, trying to get themselves out of this job of leading a stiff-necked, rebellious people constantly calling God evil and constantly grumbling and wishing they'd never been saved out of Egypt?
look at the types at play here: we know the Rock is Christ, 1 Cor. 10:4 -- so what is water to a thirsty people in a wilderness, coming from Christ? it's salvation. does Moses think people who are constantly disobedient and blaspheming deserve salvation? does Moses think God will give salvation as a reward for disobedience and rebellion? so what does Moses think God will do when Moses willingly chooses disobedience? does Moses think Christ will give salvation/water? and what comes out of the rock/Christ? water/salvation to the undeserving, not withheld and not taken away, even in the face of disobedience, but given for the sake of His own Name.
and o man, there are a thousand questions coming up here in the typology. we could spend the next ten years figuring that out and not get to the bottom of it all. but this has to do with the thread topic, so let me stick to that aspect
so what is it that Moses & Aaron do not believe? they expected something to happen - did it happen? what is it about their expectations contrasted with the reality of what happened, that speaks of unbelief? they didn't believe something that would glorify God. they believed something that did not glorify God. once again, did they think salvation/water would come from the rock/Christ to the disobedient people if they did not speak to the rock? did they think they essentially had the life and future of these people in their hands? did they believe everyone was going to survive this event if it went according to their plan?who did they think was going to kill who?
and still recognizing Moses as not-a-stupid-person but an incredibly knowledgeable and wise man, what drove Moses to do this -- was his love for the people still warm, like it was in Exodus 32 & Numbers 14? was Moses' love for God strong while he did this, while he and Aaron planned this and thought through what would happen? Moses is no idiot! he is not ignorant or inexperienced! he doesn't lack composure or meekness! why, why does he do what he does?
was Moses saved?
yes. the transfiguration ((Matthew 17)) proves this without a doubt.
so Moses' love grew cold. Moses betrayed the people handing them over to death. Moses forsook them, and was willfully disobedient to God. but Moses was saved.
put this with Matthew 24 -- nothing in the Bible is disconnected. Moses therefore endured, even though he lacked love, he lacked faith, and he acted in willful sin. he had consequences for his sin on earth - he did not enter Canaan before he died. but he was saved.
endurance therefore, is not a matter of works, nor a matter of wisdom, nor a matter even of perfect belief.
how did Moses endure?
that's the salient question here. how is Moses still saved, how are the people and their animals and children still saved, despite the sin? despite the increase of iniquity? despite the lack of love?
do you really think God failed to achieve His purpose? a puny little man can screw up omnipotent God's plan?
do you really think that Numbers 20 is a record of God's incompetence?
did this all take God by surprise? was God scrambling to try to fix it?
did God screw up by giving water? was God like 'o wow what do I do now? ummm.. ok water anyway'
why did God tell Moses to take his rod if all he has to do is speak to the rock?
what is the NT complement of striking the rock twice when you're supposed to speak to it?
who did that then? who does that now? do they have no hope of salvation?
did Moses have no hope of salvation?
is the Bible broken?
i know that's what people preach. that God's perfect plan for a typology of Christ the Rock was ruined.
but bro, be very suspicious of everything you hear from a pulpit. compare it with scripture. compare it with what you know about the power, character and knowledge of God. He's made strong in our weakness, and He knows all things.
That's quite a bit of rumination you've got going on there. The easy answer is that Moses cracked under pressure. To postulate that he sought To betray his people is a stretch.
The account was duly recorded so I don't think it was ruined actually. I can see that it is a type of the Second Coming, despite what is ostensibly human error.do you really think God failed to achieve His purpose? a puny little man can screw up omnipotent God's plan?
do you really think that Numbers 20 is a record of God's incompetence?
did this all take God by surprise? was God scrambling to try to fix it?
did God screw up by giving water? was God like 'o wow what do I do now? ummm.. ok water anyway'
why did God tell Moses to take his rod if all he has to do is speak to the rock?
what is the NT complement of striking the rock twice when you're supposed to speak to it?
who did that then? who does that now? do they have no hope of salvation?
did Moses have no hope of salvation?
is the Bible broken?
i know that's what people preach. that God's perfect plan for a typology of Christ the Rock was ruined.
but bro, be very suspicious of everything you hear from a pulpit. compare it with scripture. compare it with what you know about the power, character and knowledge of God. He's made strong in our weakness, and He knows all things.
it's a lot more of a stretch to think Moses was an idiot without a plan than it is to think that he 'cracked under pressure' and decided to do what he did on the spur of the moment. God said it was unbelief, as i showed you, and said it to both Moses and Aaron. getting stagefright and remembering the wrong line isn't unbelief. knowing what you're supposed to do, but not doing it because you think something wrong about God, is unbelief.
it's an even bigger stretch to say that God put Numbers 20 in the Bible so we'd know that He screws up sometimes and isn't able to put together the miraculous types He wants in His scripture. it's huuuuge stretch to say Numbers 20 is in the Bible for the express purpose of showing us God failed at creating scripture and giving signs.
you've probably never heard anyone talking about this incident in any other way than Moses being a buffoon flying by the seat of his pants and God being clumsy and lacking foresight. so maybe think about it for a while and get back to me.
That is a very informative post in fact. Quite frankly the question of weekly Sabbath keeping is still open to debate. But what I can offer is that Christians have entered into their perpetual Sabbath rest.@2ndTimothyGroup here is a compiled list of examples that show the Biblical distinction between God's Law of Ten Commandments and the Mosaic Law. I've forgotten some examples over the years, but if they come to me, I'll let you know
I. The Mosaic Law was written by the hand of Moses, written on scrolls, placed outside the Ark, and was against them by virtue of the penalties and curses contained therein (Deuteronomy 31:24-26 KJV)....
...but in contrast, the Ten Commandment Law of God was written with His finger (Exodus 31:18 KJV), on both sides of stone tablets (Exodus 32:15 KJV), placed inside the Ark (Exodus 25:16 KJV), and contained blessings, not curses (Exodus 20:11 KJV; Exodus 20:12 KJV).
II. In 2 Kings 21:8 KJV, God promises Israel permanent residence if they keep His Law and the Mosaic law.
III. In 2 Chronicles 33:8 KJV, God promises the same if they will obey His Law and the Mosaic Law.
IV. In Daniel 9:11 KJV, he confessed that his people disobeyed the God's Law and the Mosaic Law.
V. In Deuteronomy 4:13-14 KJV, Moses says God commanded the people to keep His Law and commanded Moses to give them the Mosaic Law.
VI. God called the yearly Israelite Feast Days "your sabbaths" (Leviticus 23:24 KJV; Leviticus 23:32 KJV; Leviticus 23:39 KJV) and declared them to be "besides" the Sabbaths of the Lord (Leviticus 23:37-39 KJV) contained in the Ten Commandments, a clear distinction between what pertained to God's Law and the Mosaic Law.
VII. In Romans 7:12 KJV, Paul refers to God's Law (identified as such by his reference to the Tenth Commandment in Romans 7:7 KJV) as "holy, just, and good", but refers to the Mosaic Law concerning the Levitical priesthood as a "carnal" commandment in Hebrews 7:16 KJV. If there's only one law, how can it be both "holy, just, and good" and "carnal" at the same time?
VIII. The Ten Commandments existed before Mount Sinai. It is obvious that:
Cain knew murder was wrong
Abraham knew lying was wrong
Rachel knew stealing was wrong
Jacob knew idolatry in the form of jewelry was wrong
Joseph knew adultery was wrong
Israel knew Sabbath breaking was wrong (Exodus 16:28 KJV) long before they got anywhere near Mt. Sinai.
Abraham kept God's "commandments, statutes, and laws"
IX. Paul says in Galatians 3:19 KJV that the Mosaic Law was "added because of transgression" -- transgression of an already existing law: the Ten Commandments -- and this added Mosaic Law was to last "until the Seed should come". When Jesus was crucified, the Mosaic Law was nailed to the Cross with Him (Colossians 2:14-17 KJV) and the "sabbath" Paul speaks of here refers to the yearly Feast Day sabbaths of the Mosaic Law that was "against" them (Colossians 2:14 KJV; Deuteronomy 31:26 KJV) -- the Sabbath of the Lord, along with the rest of the Ten Commandments will "stand fast forever and ever" (Psalms 111:7:8 KJV).
XI. God called the commandments He spoke at Sinai with His mouth "My Commandments" which Matthew says was Jesus Who did that (Psalms 78:1-2 KJV; Matthew 13:34-35 KJV). The Mosaic Law was called for that reason: it was the law that Moses wrote.
I'm comfortable with saying that cracking under pressure and frustration driven haste, poor judgement and human error can easily be categorized by God as unbelief. I can make the same case for Elijah quite frankly. Or possibly even David.
Moses is plotting and scheming to hatch a plan contrary to what the Will of Almighty God that knew Moses so well? Seems highly unlikely to me. Moses probably knew that Almighty God could read his thoughts for heaven sake.
none of these are stupid or thoughtless men. they are wiser than us, more knowledgeable than us, have greater faith than us, and saw greater things than us. they are kings and shepherds of nations. they make bad decisions, but not uncalculated ones.
God didn't write the Bible like a children's story. He expects us to dig into it, meditate on it, study it, and pore over it, searching it for Him. it's not a simple book. we're supposed to ask questions about everything we read in it, and search it for answers.
one of those obvious questions is 'why did Moses do this?' -- and i'm sorry man but 'he had a brain fart God didn't expect' is not an answer that sufficiently satisfies the text.
remember God had told Moses in another place that He would destroy the people and start a new people through him. Exodus 32:10
this is something Moses isn't going to forget. in fact Moses wrote it down, in Exodus.
the people had risen up against Moses and Aaron several times. remember the rod of Aaron budding? the Korah rebellion? Numbers 16-17. remember the remember Aaron & Miriam rebelling? Numbers 12.
why is the law of the red heifer, the water of cleansing, given right before Numbers 20?
accident? coincidence? or omniscient plan of God who wrote the most complex book in the history of the planet?
why do we have a rebellion against the authority of Moses and Aaron, threatening to kill them, being miraculously saved and approved by God in Numbers 16-17, then laws for Levites receiving their portion of tithes and offerings, then water of cleansing, then Moses and Aaron in unbelief striking the rock twice instead of speaking to it, yet the Israelites still receiving water, in Numbers 20?
totally random progression of events or an extraordinarily deep narrative organized by an all-knowing Creator & Author?
i do not believe Moses stood at that rock and forgot what he was supposed to do. i do not believe he stood at that rock without having thought about what was going to happen and walking through the possibilities in his mind. i do not believe Moses was an idiot. i do not believe i am wiser than him. i do not believe God was taken by surprise by what happened, and i don't believe it's in the Bible as a record of God & Moses both being incompetent. i don't believe preachers who say that are wiser than God, nor wiser than Moses, nor closer to Him.
Numbers 20:13 -- God was hallowed among the Israelites, even while they quarreled with Him.
this was not contrary to God's plan; He knew their hearts before He ever brought them out of Egypt - and it wasn't because of their inherent goodness or obedience that He did so. mercy -- everlasting lovingkindness. this is, IMO, what Moses didn't believe. Moses thought God would let either him & Aaron or the people die, if Moses disobeyed. so yeah, i think Moses was tired, discouraged and frustrated. the Bible absolutely portrays him this way -- his own words at the rock do. but i do not think he was an idiot. i do not think he acted without forethought. the scripture doesn't paint him as that kind of man, at all. even smashing the tablets, this wasn't a thoughtless action like kicking a rock. he knew exactly what he was doing, and why. he was raised to be a pharaoh and spoke with God face-to-face like no other man, regularly.
Admittedly, I usually don't read much pf the lengthier submissions either...that is, unless the majority of the post is original thought and not so much just a succession of prooftext supposedly supporting a particular interpretation. I even went back a page to gather the background here... seeing you were saying what I was going to... if I thought long enough about how to say it, I mean.
I've heard a rabbi teach this from the position that Moses was a man of (quick) action and slow to speak (heavy of tongue), and basically reverted back to his habit in this instance. It was a awhile ago listening to this perspective so I can't rightly recall whether he actually did correlate this with the works vs faith debate, since it would seem uncharacteristic of an orthodox rabbi taking this approach considering...but, I do believe that he actually did take the faith (speaking) over works (action) position in the teaching of this account.
and why is the very next thing that is recorded, Moses & Israel trying to pass through Edom and being refused, so they turn back the way they came? that totally random factoid just stuck in there as a filler? or is it exactly what God wants us to know next, in exactly the place it needs to be? and then Aaron dies -- another weird coincidence in a string of totally disconnected ancient notebook entries?