Jesus turned water into unfermented wine and not fermented wine.

[Jason0047]

The list is a compilation of the warnings against drunkenness AND in drinking strong intoxicating beverages itself. You are looking at one verse within the list (that defends your view) and are ignoring the rest of them. Please look at all of them.

In other words, I want you to choose those verses that condemn the use of strong drink itself. However, if you believe occasional drunkenness is not a sin (like some do here), then by all means, post those verses so that we can discuss them. But if you believe drunkenness is a sin like I do, then there is no point for us to debate such a verse.

 

[Jason0047]

Break the chains! Stop trying to stand at the throne of God. Live a little! Or a lot! Only drunkers can not be trusted to drink of the cup because they dont know when to say when. Stop pointing your finger and see that when you do there are three fingers pointed back at you. You have missed the whole meaning of this miracle.

When I hear the words, "Live a little or a lot" that means that I can live however I like and or do whatever I like. That is not the message that Jesus Christ has given us. That would be a message from a false Christ. Jesus desires us to deny ourselves and to pick up our cross. Do you believe that? If so, then how do you believe that? For we are not our own, we are bought and paid for with a price. For we are to present our bodies as a living sacrifice unto God (Romans 12:1). We are to live holy lives and not immoral lives. To live an immoral life would insult what Christ has done for us and it would be in direct opposition to conforming to His image. Choose this day whom you will serve. Either Jesus or yourself. You cannot serve two masters. For you will hate the one and love the other. I say this not to wound you in any way. I say this to guide you deeper in your love and devotion to Jesus Christ where you will want nothing but Him and His righteousness.

Anyways, I say this all in love.
Peace, blessings, and love be unto you from the Lord Jesus Christ.
And please be well.

 

[Last]

When wine or the fresh juice that comes out of the cluster of the grape (After is first crushed) it is indeed a fermenting substance. But that does not mean that it immediately always goes thru the complete fermentation process within seconds. That takes time. Jesus did not cook up some fermentation process miracle which is a process invented by man and not God. God creates and gives things as they naturally are. Also, there are many warnings in the OT against intoxicating beverages.

Fermentation is a natural process. It was created by God, not man.

[quote\Although technically wine is naturally fermented when it is first squeezed out of the grapes, it is not fully fermented yet. This is why it can be called "Unfermented Wine." [/quote]

You are just making stuff up again. When you squeeze grapes, the juice will ferment to completion in a few days

So, while I believe Jesus did create wine that is slightly fermented initially, it was not fully formented wine.

Jesus served wine, not grape juice. They would have remarked on the fact the juice was unfermented.

 

[lisa79]

This is like trying to teach the mute to sing and its pointless. Stop trying to stand in Gods place you kneel before Him and be humbled that you may gain sight. I pray that God bless you with understanding and that He forgive you because you dont understand what you are judging!


You do not see that your are standing at the throne of God! Trying to tell him that "they sin" who are you? Think about it?

Your harsh judgement and twisting of the word in a claim to serve God is exhsusting.

Im going to go have a glass of wine...I hope you can forgive yourself if I stumble into drunkenness.

 

[Bowman]

The list is a compilation of the warnings against drunkenness AND in drinking strong intoxicating beverages itself. You are looking at one verse within the list (that defends your view) and are ignoring the rest of them. Please look at all of them.

That's a cop-out, JJ...you provided the verse for YOUR position, now defend it!

Man-up.

 

[Agricola]

Question. Will Drinking a couple of mouthfuls of wine make me drunk?
Answer : NO.

The warnings are against getting drunk, not drinking alcohol.

 

[kennethcadwell]

When I hear the words, "Live a little or a lot" that means that I can live however I like and or do whatever I like. That is not the message that Jesus Christ has given us. That would be a message from a false Christ. Jesus desires us to deny ourselves and to pick up our cross. Do you believe that? If so, then how do you believe that? For we are not our own, we are bought and paid for with a price. For we are to present our bodies as a living sacrifice unto God (Romans 12:1). We are to live holy lives and not immoral lives. To live an immoral life would insult what Christ has done for us and it would be in direct opposition to conforming to His image. Choose this day whom you will serve. Either Jesus or yourself. You cannot serve two masters. For you will hate the one and love the other. I say this not to wound you in any way. I say this to guide you deeper in your love and devotion to Jesus Christ where you will want nothing but Him and His righteousness.

Anyways, I say this all in love.
Peace, blessings, and love be unto you from the Lord Jesus Christ.
And please be well.

Your right, we can not live however we want in order to have the salvation that is offered to us through our Lord.

However that being said, He did not take our free will away and we are not force to follow Him.

Each and every one of us has the choice to obey Him, or deny Him and His teachings.

He makes and allows all things good and evil for the purpose that we come to Him out of true love, and to understand how far we all have fallen. It is His way of awakening us to the truth of His loving kindness and grace.

Once you see the truth, you are then to pass on what you have been taught to others and show the same love and caring to all that has been shown to you.

 

[lisa79]

When I hworship words, "Live a little or a lot" that means that I can live however I like and or do whatever I like. That is not the message that Jesus Christ has given us. That would be a message from a false Christ. Jesus desires us to deny ourselves and to pick up our cross. Do you believe that? If so, then how do you believe that? For we are not our own, we are bought and paid for with a price. For we are to present our bodies as a living sacrifice unto God (Romans 12:1). We are to live holy lives and not immoral lives. To live an immoral life would insult what Christ has done for us and it would be in direct opposition to conforming to His image. Choose this day whom you will serve. Either Jesus or yourself. You cannot serve two masters. For you will hate the one and love the other. I say this not to wound you in any way. I say this to guide you deeper in your love and devotion to Jesus Christ where you will want nothing but Him and His righteousness.

Anyways, I say this all in love.
Peace, blessings, and love be unto you from the Lord Jesus Christ.
And please be well.

You are right that I am saying "I can do whatever I want" I live for our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and I am a trusted servant and co-heir in His Kingdom. I drink of this cup in rememberance. You spit it out and question..." is this alcoholic"? How dare you. Im done wuth this thread you have only succeed to prove yourself WRONG....not by questioning but by judging.

I live! I pray and I honor and worship and serve but I dont turn my nose up at the quest of honor at the wedding party.

 

[kennethcadwell]

You are right that I am saying "I can do whatever I want" I live for our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and I am a trusted servant and co-heir in His Kingdom. I drink of this cup in rememberance. You spit it out and question..." is this alcoholic"? How dare you. Im done wuth this thread you have only succeed to prove yourself WRONG....not by questioning but by judging.

I live! I pray and I honor and worship and serve but I dont turn my nose up at the quest of honor at the wedding party.

You are right to a point.

As long as it falls under the category of love and edifying then you can do whatever you want.

A person who wants to be a sheep, as in follow the Jesus as Lord and Savior, can not stay and walk in willful sin.

One who says they believe, but walks in willful sin is a goat. They have mere belief which does not save anybody.

Titus 1:16
They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate.

Matthew 10:33
But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven.

 

[lisa79]

Believers in the OT drank alcohol.






Hence your hangup....for some strange reason you think that drinking alcohol was forbidden in the OT.

Jacked.







Not only do you NOT quote the scriptures to which you refer - but you IGNORE all the other scriptures which thwart your jaded worldview.

When I hear the words, "Live a little or a lot" that means that I can live however I like and or do whatever I like. That is not the message that Jesus Christ has given us. That would be a message from a false Christ. Jesus desires us to deny ourselves and to pick up our cross. Do you believe that? If so, then how do you believe that? For we are not our own, we are bought and paid for with a price. For we are to present our bodies as a living sacrifice unto God (Romans 12:1). We are to live holy lives and not immoral lives. To live an immoral life would insult what Christ has done for us and it would be in direct opposition to conforming to His image. Choose this day whom you will serve. Either Jesus or yourself. You cannot serve two masters. For you will hate the one and love the other. I say this not to wound you in any way. I say this to guide you deeper in your love and devotion to Jesus Christ where you will want nothing but Him and His righteousness.

Anyways, I say this all in love.
Peace, blessings, and love be unto you from the Lord Jesus Christ.
And please be well.

I not serve wine it is served to me. If and when I see it a good choice to drink it. I have had a drink maybe 3 times in a year! But even if I drank every day that is for God to judge not you. I have painted a picture for you and have shown you through the guidance of the Holy Spirit that lives in me what the miracle means and how His glory was manifest. Still you can't see where you are standing in the picture...trying to be God. I'm new to this site but I tell you its people like you that make Christians have a bad name teaching judgement and prejudice.

 

[lisa79]

Believers in the OT drank alcohol.






Hence your hangup....for some strange reason you think that drinking alcohol was forbidden in the OT.

Jacked.







Not only do you NOT quote the scriptures to which you refer - but you IGNORE all the other scriptures which thwart your jaded worldview.

You are right to a point.

As long as it falls under the category of love and edifying then you can do whatever you want.

A person who wants to be a sheep, as in follow the Jesus as Lord and Savior, can not stay and walk in willful sin.

One who says they believe, but walks in willful sin is a goat. They have mere belief which does not save anybody.

Titus 1:16
They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate.

Matthew 10:33
But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven.

If what you want is to live a life close to God then you can live the way you want. Anyone who knows me would trust me with their life and bank account...that says a lot.

 

[kennethcadwell]

If what you want is to live a life close to God then you can live the way you want. Anyone who knows me would trust me with their life and bank account...that says a lot.

We who follow Christ can not live in willful sin.

You can not profess to know God, and not produce good works.

Example:
A homosexual who comes to know Jesus and accept Him as Lord and Savior, can not then continue to live a homosexual lifestyle.

This would be denying Jesus Christ because they are not repenting and turning from that sin.

Do we back slide yes, but we have a Lord that is just and when we repent and ask forgiveness of that sin He is just to forgive us.

However if you do not repent and ask forgiveness you will not be forgiven. Those who do this are ones who live under a false doctrine that taught them sins that are unacceptable are now acceptable or don't matter.

 

[lisa79]

[/SIZE][/FONT][/QUOTE]

We who follow Christ can not live in willful sin.

You can not profess to know God, and not produce good works.

Example:
A homosexual who comes to know Jesus and accept Him as Lord and Savior, can not then continue to live a homosexual lifestyle.

This would be denying Jesus Christ because they are not repenting and turning from that sin.

Do we back slide yes, but we have a Lord that is just and when we repent and ask forgiveness of that sin He is just to forgive us.

However if you do not repent and ask forgiveness you will not be forgiven. Those who do this are ones who live under a false doctrine that taught them sins that are unacceptable are now acceptable or don't matter.

I think you are confused by me saying " I do what I want'
I am telling you I surrendered my will a long time ago. I live a full good Christian life and I do what I want. I WANT to live by the word of God and I do exactly that.

I know Christ lives in me because I do NOT want to do things that hurt him.

I stay in the word so that I do not fall victim to sin and temptation is not a problem for me it is a chance to glorify God by not falling victim to sin.

 

[kennethcadwell]

[/SIZE][/FONT]

I think you are confused by me saying " I do what I want'
I am telling you I surrendered my will a long time ago. I live a full good Christian life and I do what I want. I WANT to live by the word of God and I do exactly that.

I know Christ lives in me because I do NOT want to do things that hurt him.

I stay in the word so that I do not fall victim to sin and temptation is not a problem for me it is a chance to glorify God by not falling victim to sin.[/QUOTE]


Ok, just as long as you know living a sinful life style is not acceptable to God.

There are those who believe this false doctrine that once they accept Christ, no matter how bad they live they still will be saved.

They mistake with living a bad life style, with no matter how bad a sin you commit.

It is true that even what we consider to be the worst of sins can be forgiven, we can not confuse this with you can live a lifestyle in that sin.

Example: Can a murderer be forgiven of murder...YES, Can a person who continues to murder every day, month, or year without repenting of it be saved.........NO.

 

[Jason0047]

I think you are confused by me saying " I do what I want'
I am telling you I surrendered my will a long time ago. I live a full good Christian life and I do what I want. I WANT to live by the word of God and I do exactly that.

Then why on Earth would you tell me to "Live Life and or to Live it A lot"? That sends the wrong message about Jesus Christ. I can't live life like the world does. For the path that they are on leads to sin and destruction. You said before in another post that you were drunk before and that this was not wrong but it was just your life. Is this submitting your life to Chrst or is this submitting to your own life and righteousness? See, there is God's righteousness and then there is men's righteousness. We can't submit to our own sense of right and wrong. It just won't work. For there are many people in this world who do not think they are the villain of the story but the hero. People have their own false standard of morality. But the only standard is the righteousness of Jesus Christ which is given to us in the New Testament. God has laws and if we break them, we are showing that we do not know Him. Yes, it is true we are not saved by Law keeping. We are saved by His mercy and grace 100%. But when we have surrendered to Him and or have a broken heart before Him about all the evil in our life, then God saves us and then He can begin to work in move within us. Then God can start to do the good works within our lives. For Jesus said we can do nothing without Him. But without true repentance, there is no forgiveness. For if we willfully sin after having received the knowledge of the truth, there remains no more sacrifice for sins. Unless of course you repent or confess your sins to Him and strive to do ONLY good (According to His Word).

 

[StandingFirmInChrist]

The miracle was that He did the impossible and aged the wine to perfection on instant! God is not bound by time! All things are possible with Him... don't you see that we are made perfect by His hand as well and we are judged how we judge others....."judge NOT" He said DONT DO IT...yet you continue and you are judging yourself. I wish you could see this.


I don't understand this whole "he's in a KJV only cult" stuff but I can tell you. No weapon formed against you will prosper. Other versions have prospered! They are not weapons but tools! Every language has a purpose. God speaks to everyone in a way they can understand.

The Bible does not say Jesus "aged the wine". You are adding your own preferences where the Bible is silent. smh

Jesus did say "Judge not, lest ye be judged". However, He also said in another passage, "Judge not according to appearance, but judge righteous judgment". So, we are told both to not judge and to judge.

Contradiction? Not at all. The judging the Lord does not want us to mete out is hypocritical judgment. In other words, if we are guilty of stealing, we should not point fingers and shake our heads at those who are stealing too. However, if we do not steal, we can judge those who are stealing... And since the Bible tells us, "Thou shalt not steal", when we rebuke those who are stealing while we are not, that is called "righteous judgment."


Both Jason and I have used Scripture to show that even grape juice in the grape was known as wine in ancient Israel. We have also given Scripture to show that kings were forbidden to drink wine that was fermented. Our standing on those facts is not judging wrong at all.

The very fact that Jesus was "undefiled and separate from sinners," the fact that He came to save man from sin, proves the fact that Jesus did not drink alcohol, nor did He ever serve it to men who were already on the road to drunkenness.

 

[directline2iam]

There is no sin in consuming alcohol and Jesus didn't SERVE, fermented wine to anyone at any wedding or other, except on the night of his betrayal with the 12 Apostles. You read all the bible, not nit pick verses to make your own interpretation.

 

[lisa79]

Then why on Earth would you tell me to "Live Life and or to Live it A lot"? That sends the wrong message about Jesus Christ. I can't live life like the world does. For the path that they are on leads to sin and destruction. You said before in another post that you were drunk before and that this was not wrong but it was just your life. Is this submitting your life to Chrst or is this submitting to your own life and righteousness? See, there is God's righteousness and then there is men's righteousness. We can't submit to our own sense of right and wrong. It just won't work. For there are many people in this world who do not think they are the villain of the story but the hero. People have their own false standard of morality. But the only standard is the righteousness of Jesus Christ which is given to us in the New Testament. God has laws and if we break them, we are showing that we do not know Him. Yes, it is true we are not saved by Law keeping. We are saved by His mercy and grace 100%. But when we have surrendered to Him and or have a broken heart before Him about all the evil in our life, then God saves us and then He can begin to work in move within us. Then God can start to do the good works within our lives. For Jesus said we can do nothing without Him. But without true repentance, there is no forgiveness. For if we willfully sin after having received the knowledge of the truth, there remains no more sacrifice for sins. Unless of course you repent or confess your sins to Him and strive to do ONLY good (According to His Word).

When you are in Christ Jesus living a little or a lot doesnt mean get drunk on things. It means to walk in that of righteousness. Putting action to what He teaches us and now I have a whole lot more respect for the wine but I see freedom because I trust myself with it and you see judgement. You still dont know where you are standing. None of you do!?

 

[kennethcadwell]

The Bible does not say Jesus "aged the wine". You are adding your own preferences where the Bible is silent. smh

Jesus did say "Judge not, lest ye be judged". However, He also said in another passage, "Judge not according to appearance, but judge righteous judgment". So, we are told both to not judge and to judge.

Contradiction? Not at all. The judging the Lord does not want us to mete out is hypocritical judgment. In other words, if we are guilty of stealing, we should not point fingers and shake our heads at those who are stealing too. However, if we do not steal, we can judge those who are stealing... And since the Bible tells us, "Thou shalt not steal", when we rebuke those who are stealing while we are not, that is called "righteous judgment."


Both Jason and I have used Scripture to show that even grape juice in the grape was known as wine in ancient Israel. We have also given Scripture to show that kings were forbidden to drink wine that was fermented. Our standing on those facts is not judging wrong at all.

The very fact that Jesus was "undefiled and separate from sinners," the fact that He came to save man from sin, proves the fact that Jesus did not drink alcohol, nor did He ever serve it to men who were already on the road to drunkenness.

The problem is though is the word that is used for wine in the original text...oy'-nos.

Which means fermented.

 

[lisa79]

The Bible does not say Jesus "aged the wine". You are adding your own preferences where the Bible is silent. smh

Jesus did say "Judge not, lest ye be judged". However, He also said in another passage, "Judge not according to appearance, but judge righteous judgment". So, we are told both to not judge and to judge.

Contradiction? Not at all. The judging the Lord does not want us to mete out is hypocritical judgment. In other words, if we are guilty of stealing, we should not point fingers and shake our heads at those who are stealing too. However, if we do not steal, we can judge those who are stealing... And since the Bible tells us, "Thou shalt not steal", when we rebuke those who are stealing while we are not, that is called "righteous judgment."


Both Jason and I have used Scripture to show that even grape juice in the grape was known as wine in ancient Israel. We have also given Scripture to show that kings were forbidden to drink wine that was fermented. Our standing on those facts is not judging wrong at all.

The very fact that Jesus was "undefiled and separate from sinners," the fact that He came to save man from sin, proves the fact that Jesus did not drink alcohol, nor did He ever serve it to men who were already on the road to drunkenness.

I am done with this...you dont respond to when I quote scripture but you pick apart interpretation not to help clarify but to again....judge it.....im sorry I didnt know you had the right to judge. Is Jesus hiring?

Once more....YOU ARE NOT QUALIFIED TO JUDGE THE WINE only God the Father is! As a general rule i dont drink but if I did its not your place to judge me. Good day sir