Jesus turned water into unfermented wine and not fermented wine.

[StandingFirmInChrist]

We must remember, they had just falsely accused Him the previous day, and here, they were trying to find fault with Him again. When they brought the woman taken in adultery, He caused them to see they were without sin and they left His presence to regroup and plan another attack.

 

[Jason0047]

I don't believe you that Chuck Missler said that the Pharisees were accusing Christ of being a child of fornication in verse 41.

Chuck Missler talks about the missing years in Christ's childhood in Psalm 69. He then ties it in with John 8:41. This particular presentation starts approximately at 50 minutes into the video:

[video=youtube;aRlHxZEI7dg]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aRlHxZEI7dg[/video]

 

[Deadtosin]

We must remember, they had just falsely accused Him the previous day, and here, they were trying to find fault with Him again. When they brought the woman taken in adultery, He caused them to see they were without sin and they left His presence to regroup and plan another attack.

I'm not going to keep repeating myself. All anyone has to do is read the whole passage and it's clear they are being defensive. Of course there are those who believed Mary had Jesus illegitimately but that isn't how that passage reads at all.

 

[Deadtosin]

I just watched that segment with Missler he says it at 55:40 but he doesn't use any context at all. He just says basically what you said. It's not how that passage reads, I trust the bible over that snippet. He is just trying to show they had tension.

 

[Jason0047]

I just watched that segment with Missler he says it at 55:40 but he doesn't use any context at all. He just says basically what you said. It's not how that passage reads, I trust the bible over that snippet. He is just trying to show they had tension.

You must have stopped watching then. He then talks about how they are making stories up about him and his mother. He says that Jesus was raised in a town were they called him illegitimate.

 

[Deadtosin]

You must have stopped watching then. He then talks about how they are making stories up about him and his mother. He says that Jesus was raised in a town were they called him illegitimate.

I read all of that, but I am talking about his reference to john vs 41.. he only quotes "we are not illegitimate children" that's it, there is no context for the surrounding verses.

 

[Jason0047]

I read all of that, but I am talking about his reference to john vs 41.. he only quotes "we are not illegitimate children" that's it, there is no context for the surrounding verses.

Moved this discussion here:

http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/98273-john-8-41-a.html

 

[JackH]

The country in which I was born... Libya, North Africa

(Don't anybody even think about poking me for going off topic, and you know why.)

Yes, I know where Libya is.

Do you live in Libya now?

Your flag was recently changed from USA to that green one.

 

[JackH]

So if Psalm 104:14-15 is talking about alcoholic wine that makes men's hearts glad, then why does it say that we are to drink wine with a merry heart in Ecclesiastes 9:7?

Ecclesiastes 9:7
"Go thy way, eat thy bread with joy, and drink thy wine with a merry heart; for God now accepteth thy works."

Did you catch that? It says we are to drink "wine" WITH a merry heart. Meaning, that the wine the Israelites drank did not automatically make their hearts merry because they had to drink their wine WITH a merry heart. For if we are to assume that all forms of wine (either freshly squeezed grape juice, i.e. new wine or fully fermented wine) are to make one's heart merry, then we must also conclude that bread makes us joyful, too. But that is not what it says here. It says eat your bread with joy and drink with a merry heart. So Psalm 104:14-15 is not the type of wine that you think it is.

So let's get back to discussing Scripture and wine.

Jason0047, this is one of your more bizarre misinterpretations of Scripture.

Nelson NKJV Study Bible on Ecclesiastes 9:7: "God meant for all His gifts to be enjoyed. The image of bread and wine is frequently used in Scripture as a symbol of the fact that God gives comfort and cheer to people. (Gen. 14:18, 1 Sam 16:20; 25:18, Neh 5:15; Lam. 2:12)."

Now, I think this is a credible source, being a commentary in a reliable Bible translation. As opposed to you using an article by a Seventh-day Adventist who himself uses Ellen G. White as a source. I'm sure you can see the difference.

 

[Linda70]

(Don't anybody even think about poking me for going off topic, and you know why.)

Yes, I know where Libya is.

Do you live in Libya now?

Your flag was recently changed from USA to that green one.

Hello JackH...I am SFIC's wife:

No...he's not living in Libya now. He left Libya in January, 1961, after his father was killed in a diving accident on Christmas Day, 1960.

That flag has not been recently changed....it's been there since since he registered a year ago.

 

[JackH]

Hello JackH...I am SFIC's wife:

No...he's not living in Libya now. He left Libya in January, 1961, after his father was killed in a diving accident on Christmas Day, 1960.

That flag has not been recently changed....it's been there since since he registered a year ago.

Hello Linda,

Well no wonder you "Like" all his posts then. Lol. At least you have a good reason.

I'm not trying to make some point, just curious.

I recognized that flag as likely being Muammar Gaddafi's flag. No country I know of ever had an all green flag except his. The flag was changed three years ago after the civil revolt and Gaddafi's demise.

Well, please go wake your husband up. It's time to argue some more.

 

[Jason0047]

Nelson NKJV Study Bible on Ecclesiastes 9:7: "God meant for all His gifts to be enjoyed. The image of bread and wine is frequently used in Scripture as a symbol of the fact that God gives comfort and cheer to people. (Gen. 14:18, 1 Sam 16:20; 25:18, Neh 5:15; Lam. 2:12)."

Now, I think this is a credible source, being a commentary in a reliable Bible translation. As opposed to you using an article by a Seventh-day Adventist who himself uses Ellen G. White as a source. I'm sure you can see the difference.

The NKJV is not a reliable Bible. I moved that discussion here:

http://christianchat.com/bible-disc...ible-vs-rest-other-bibles-39.html#post1667535

 

[Jason0047]

So let's get back to discussing Scripture and wine.

Jason0047, this is one of your more bizarre misinterpretations of Scripture.

Nelson NKJV Study Bible on Ecclesiastes 9:7: "God meant for all His gifts to be enjoyed. The image of bread and wine is frequently used in Scripture as a symbol of the fact that God gives comfort and cheer to people. (Gen. 14:18, 1 Sam 16:20; 25:18, Neh 5:15; Lam. 2:12)."

Now, I think this is a credible source, being a commentary in a reliable Bible translation. As opposed to you using an article by a Seventh-day Adventist who himself uses Ellen G. White as a source. I'm sure you can see the difference.

You also have to stop the slander. There are rules against that here. I am in no way a supporter E. G. White. Nor am I a supporter of 7th Day Adventistism. I can say that a person who does not believe the KJV is the inspired Word is deceived by the Modern Bible Translation Cult. But such a statement would be inappropriate. Such an statement would be unloving. Un-Christian. For a person who does not believe the KJV is not inspired doesn't mean they cannot know many truths within the Scriptures.

 

[Jason0047]

Also, if you want to talk about the appropriate method of providing source links, start another thread.

 

[Jason0047]

Nelson NKJV Study Bible on Ecclesiastes 9:7: "God meant for all His gifts to be enjoyed. The image of bread and wine is frequently used in Scripture as a symbol of the fact that God gives comfort and cheer to people. (Gen. 14:18, 1 Sam 16:20; 25:18, Neh 5:15; Lam. 2:12)."

When we read Ecclesiastes 9, we also have to read it in context of Ecclesiastes 10 and 12, too.

In Ecclesiastes 10:19, it is said that money answers all things. Is such a statement true? From a worldly perspective that would be a "yes." See, Solomon is talking about how all these things are vanity. He concludes in Ecclesiastes 12 that we are to fear God and keep his commandments. He is not approving of the pleasures of this life as if they are going to truly satifsy you. Remember when the New Testament said, the Kingdom of God is not meat and drink? What is the true joy? The Kingdom of God is righteousness, peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost. That is the Kingdom of God. That is what Solomon is saying, too. He concludes that the phsycial pleasures of this world are all vanity. The physical dead do not have a reward. Only the spiritual things of God matter. So why not focus on dedicating our lives to Christ instead of defending something that is not of the Kingdom? For remember. The Kingdom of God is not meat or drink.


As for the mention of those other verses: I will discuss them in my next post.

Anyways, may God's grace, love, and peace be unto you this fine day.

 

[Jason0047]

Also, wine that is crushed and ferments is a product created by men. Grapes do not naturally crush themselves. It takes men to do that. It takes an external outside force to interfer. Genesis 14:18, 1 Samuel 16:20, 25:18, Nehemiah 5:15, Lamentations 2:12 may possibly symbolize that bread and wine may give comfort and cheer to His people. From a reading of these verses, it seems like this makes sense indeed. However, what is the nature of the wine, though? Are you telling me that men work better on building a wall if they drink alcohol? Were they not to be sober and watchful? Yes, God gives us all gifts of nature to enjoy. Grapes that come straight from the vine. Man crushing grapes is not a natural by-product of God's creation. It takes man to interfer. It takes man to do something to create intoxicating wine. Alcoholic beverages do not grow on trees. So it is not a gift from God if it is a man who interfers and does something different with God's creation. For are guns a gift from God, too? See, anything where man needs to create it, it is not God's natural gift.

That's why I believe Jesus created natural fresh grape juice (or the new wine) because God has always created things naturally (Like he always has done).

 

[JackH]

You also have to stop the slander. There are rules against that here. I am in no way a supporter E. G. White. Nor am I a supporter of 7th Day Adventistism. I can say that a person who does not believe the KJV is the inspired Word is deceived by the Modern Bible Translation Cult. But such a statement would be inappropriate. Such an statement would be unloving. Un-Christian. For a person who does not believe the KJV is not inspired doesn't mean they cannot know many truths within the Scriptures.

Do you want some cheese with that whine? (Not the Hebrew yayin or Greek oinos, since you think that will send somebody either straight to hell or off the high road you keep saying you are on.)

C'mon man, don't pee on my leg and tell me it's raining.

Did you quote and paste and copy and provide a link for an article written by a Seventh-day Adventist who in said article quoted Ellen G. White to support his position?

Did you or did you not do that?

A yes or no answer would be good.

 

[JackH]

Also, wine that is crushed and ferments is a product created by men. Grapes do not naturally crush themselves. It takes men to do that. It takes an external outside force to interfer.

Wrong.

I thought we established that fermentation can occur even in the vineyard.

How do bees become intoxicated?

Grapes, still in the cluster, can ferment due to bees poking holes in the grapes or the grape skins bursting due to being over ripe.

And quite inventing new words like interfer. We already have enough words you do not understand, like ferment.

 

[Timeline]

1 Timothy 5:23
No longer drink water exclusively, but use a little wine for the sake of your stomach and your frequent ailments.

or if you like, the King James:

1 Timothy 5:23Drink no longer water, but use a little wine for thy stomach's sake and thine often infirmities.

Yes, I have been aware of this verse for quite some time. Although, most NT believers (not all) have a liberty in Christ to drink intoxicating beverages (A liberty that did not exist before the cross for the OT saint), you will note that this verse is not a public approval to drink socially. Paul says to use a LITTLE wine for the infirmities of his stomach. It is not a "Green Light" for anyone to drink socially in this passage. It is for medicinal purposes. See, a lot of times the water they drank was not pure, and some folks did not have the tolerance to drink it, and it would give them stomach problems. Drinking a LITTLE alcohol would help them. So the recommendation here in this case is medical; Not social.

Well, if you will notice from this verse that it does indicate that some did drink water exclusively, which has often been, illogically, used to say that they could not drink only water. This verse is advice to drink some wine, which, by the way, means that wine is not evil in and of itself, as many posters have tried to tell you.

I don't know if I have told you this, but I don't like the taste of wine or beer. I have drank on occasion and have only been drunk once - and several people who enjoy getting drunk informed me that I was not drunk, but "buzzed." I did not get any joy from the incident and have no desire to become that intoxicated again.

I do agree that we should be aware of the struggles that those around us might have. But having an alcoholic drink is not wrong. However, I would not drink around someone who has/had a drinking problem. I also think that it would be okay/good to use wine for communion - EXCEPT for the potential problem it might cause for those that are or have struggled with alcoholism.

 

[Jason0047]

Do you want some cheese with that whine? (Not the Hebrew yayin or Greek oinos, since you think that will send somebody either straight to hell or off the high road you keep saying you are on.)

C'mon man, don't pee on my leg and tell me it's raining.

Did you quote and paste and copy and provide a link for an article written by a Seventh-day Adventist who in said article quoted Ellen G. White to support his position?

Did you or did you not do that?

A yes or no answer would be good.

You can take the blue pill and believe whatever you want to believe, but it wouldn't be true, though. Again, this is an off topic discussion. Also, if you don't stop with the slander I willl contact the Moderator of this website.