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K
Kerry
Guest
J
JesusistheChrist
Guest
Hi, kaylagrl.
The Bible speaks of two different "Israels" and two different "Jerusalems" and, based upon your comments here that I've read, you're not properly distinguishing between the two. It can be easily proven from scripture that natural Israel/Jerusalem is the very "MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH" (Revelation 17:5) prophesied of in scripture, so I wouldn't be too excited about the Jews returning to their homeland if I were you. IOW, they're heading there mostly to fulfill that which pertains to "MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH" and certainly not to be somehow saved en masse as many false teachers teach these days. Furthermore, the true "replacement theology" is that the Jews have some "replaced" Christ and nothing could be further from the truth...and I'll be happy to elaborate on what I mean by that.
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kaylagrl
Guest
Romans 11-I ask then: Did God reject his people? By no means! I am an Israelite myself, a descendant of Abraham, from the tribe of Benjamin. 2 God did not reject his people, whom he foreknew. Don’t you know what Scripture says in the passage about Elijah—how he appealed to God against Israel: 3 “Lord, they have killed your prophets and torn down your altars; I am the only one left, and they are trying to kill me”[a]? 4 And what was God’s answer to him? “I have reserved for myself seven thousand who have not bowed the knee to Baal.”
If some of the branches have been broken off, and you, though a wild olive shoot, have been grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing sap from the olive root, 18 do not consider yourself to be superior to those other branches. If you do, consider this: You do not support the root, but the root supports you.
I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers and sisters, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in, 26 and in this way[e] all Israel will be saved. As it is written:
“The deliverer will come from Zion;
he will turn godlessness away from Jacob.
27 And this is[f] my covenant with them
when I take away their sins.”[g]
28 As far as the gospel is concerned, they are enemies for your sake; but as far as election is concerned, they are loved on account of the patriarchs, 29 for God’s gifts and his call are irrevocable. 30 Just as you who were at one time disobedient to God have now received mercy as a result of their disobedience,31 so they too have now become disobedient in order that they too may now[h]receive mercy as a result of God’s mercy to you. 32 For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.
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kaylagrl
Guest
Given that they were born, raised and living in France, it seems they are leaving home.
I don't know what you think the article shows. Why do you think it supports your narrative about The Jews returning home? The article seems to me to explicitly say that possibly as many as 10,000 might leave France. I mean, that many people might fill up a high school football stadium, so I'm not sure why you think it supports your narrative when Israel's official statistics don't support your narrative.
K
kaylagrl
Guest
Many have believed that it is the Catholic church because of the Pope representing himself as Christ on earth. Most see it as the apostate church. Never heard your explanation before.
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kaylagrl
Guest
Well as I said I had heard it on the news then last night my pastor mentioned it.I did not get where he got his statistics,I'll have to ask.I googled it and many websites are talking about Jews going home,doesnt matter where they were born Israel is their homeland.With what happened in France more are considering the move.So I'm not making it out of thin air and posted a link to one of the stories.
HE wants them to return! If that is the case, so do I!
For Yahweh says: "Return to Me"
Malakyah 3:6-18, "For I am Yahweh, I change not; therefore you sons of Yaaqob (Jacob "called Israyl") are not consumed. Ever since the days of your fathers you have turned away from My ordinances, and have not kept them. Return to Me, and I will return to you! says Yahweh of hosts. But you said; How will we return? Will a man rob Yahweh? Yet you have robbed Me! But you say; How have we robbed You? In tithes and offerings! You are cursed with a curse--yes, this whole nation--for you have robbed Me! Bring all the tithes into the storehouse, that there may be food in My House, and prove Me now in this, says Yahweh of hosts: if I will not open the windows of heaven for you, and pour you out a blessing, that there will not be room enough to store it. And I will rebuke the devourer for your sake, that he will not destroy the fruits of your ground, nor will the vine cast her fruit before the time in the field, says Yahweh of hosts. Then all nations will call you: Blessed, for you will be the land of delight, says Yahweh of hosts. Your words have been obstinate; willful, stubborn, rebellious, against Me! says Yahweh. But you say; What have we spoken against You? You have said; It is vain; useless, futile, to serve Yahweh. And; What have we gained by keeping His ordinance, and by walking as those in mourning before Yahweh of hosts? But now we call the proud Blessed. Yes, they who work wickedness are exalted. Yes, even those who tempt Yahweh escape unpunished. Then those who reverenced Yahweh spoke often one to another, and Yahweh paid attention and heard them; and a Book of Remembrance was written in His presence of those who gave reverence to Yahweh, and who thought upon His Name; And they will be Mine! says Yahweh of hosts. In that day when I make up My jewels I will spare them, as a man spares his own son who serves him. Then you will return, and again discern between the righteous and the wicked, between him who serves Yahweh, and him who does not serve Him."
For Yahweh says: "Return to Me"
Malakyah 3:6-18, "For I am Yahweh, I change not; therefore you sons of Yaaqob (Jacob "called Israyl") are not consumed. Ever since the days of your fathers you have turned away from My ordinances, and have not kept them. Return to Me, and I will return to you! says Yahweh of hosts. But you said; How will we return? Will a man rob Yahweh? Yet you have robbed Me! But you say; How have we robbed You? In tithes and offerings! You are cursed with a curse--yes, this whole nation--for you have robbed Me! Bring all the tithes into the storehouse, that there may be food in My House, and prove Me now in this, says Yahweh of hosts: if I will not open the windows of heaven for you, and pour you out a blessing, that there will not be room enough to store it. And I will rebuke the devourer for your sake, that he will not destroy the fruits of your ground, nor will the vine cast her fruit before the time in the field, says Yahweh of hosts. Then all nations will call you: Blessed, for you will be the land of delight, says Yahweh of hosts. Your words have been obstinate; willful, stubborn, rebellious, against Me! says Yahweh. But you say; What have we spoken against You? You have said; It is vain; useless, futile, to serve Yahweh. And; What have we gained by keeping His ordinance, and by walking as those in mourning before Yahweh of hosts? But now we call the proud Blessed. Yes, they who work wickedness are exalted. Yes, even those who tempt Yahweh escape unpunished. Then those who reverenced Yahweh spoke often one to another, and Yahweh paid attention and heard them; and a Book of Remembrance was written in His presence of those who gave reverence to Yahweh, and who thought upon His Name; And they will be Mine! says Yahweh of hosts. In that day when I make up My jewels I will spare them, as a man spares his own son who serves him. Then you will return, and again discern between the righteous and the wicked, between him who serves Yahweh, and him who does not serve Him."
Romans 9:27, "Isayah also cries out concerning Israyl: Though the number of the children of Israyl be as the sand of the sea, only a remnant will be elected."
Isayah 10:20-25, "It will come to pass in that day that the remnant of Israyl, and such who have escaped of the house of Yaaqob, will no longer depend on him who struck them down, but will depend on Yahweh, the Holy One of Israyl, in truth. The remnant will return, the remnant of Yaaqob, to the Mighty Father. But though your people, O Israyl, be like the sand of the sea, only a remnant of them will return; the consumption; destruction decreed, will overflow with righteousness, For Yahweh, Father of hosts will make a consumption; destruction, a determined end in the midst of all the earth. Therefore, this is what Yahweh, Father of hosts says: O My people who dwell in Zion, do not be afraid of the Assyrian. He will strike you with a rod and lift up his staff against you, after the manner of Egypt; But yet only a very little while, and the indignation will cease; and My anger will be directed to their destruction."
Isayah 10:20-25, "It will come to pass in that day that the remnant of Israyl, and such who have escaped of the house of Yaaqob, will no longer depend on him who struck them down, but will depend on Yahweh, the Holy One of Israyl, in truth. The remnant will return, the remnant of Yaaqob, to the Mighty Father. But though your people, O Israyl, be like the sand of the sea, only a remnant of them will return; the consumption; destruction decreed, will overflow with righteousness, For Yahweh, Father of hosts will make a consumption; destruction, a determined end in the midst of all the earth. Therefore, this is what Yahweh, Father of hosts says: O My people who dwell in Zion, do not be afraid of the Assyrian. He will strike you with a rod and lift up his staff against you, after the manner of Egypt; But yet only a very little while, and the indignation will cease; and My anger will be directed to their destruction."
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It's a common narrative among a subset of American evangelicals/Protestants. I'm not surprised it comes up in websites. But the data shows that there isn't any sort of mass migration of Jews from everywhere to Israel. The data shows a very slow trickle of people out of Israel.
And who can blame them? It's not exactly the best neighborhood in the world. What's strange, and the logic the article didn't address, is that Jews in France would leave France because of a fear of rise in terrorism and anti-Semitism, and would move to Israel where the actual threat of terrorism and anti-Jewish sentiment is much higher. You have Hezbollah and ISIS to your north and Hamas to your south, east and living among you. Where is an attack on Jews more likely: Paris, France or Israel?
Is Scotland my homeland just because my ancestors lived there 300 years ago? I suppose I could figure out how to move there and buy a place to live, but I don't think it would really be my homeland.
I didn't think you were making it up. I do think that you are trying to fit the world into a neat and tidy narrative when reality usually doesn't do anything of the sort.
Attachments
K
kaylagrl
Guest
Well the site I linked to wasn't American.Israel is considered the homeland of the Jews,has been for over 3000 years.I dont know of any other country with a "wailing wall".Jews have a love for their homeland like no other nation.I'm not sure what you mean by a "neat and tidy narrative" so I cant speak to that.If you care to elaborate I will.
K
keepitsimple
Guest
Perhaps you have ... and are just not willing to listen. From this past November, 2014.
kaylagrl
Senior Member
if His covenant is with only Isaac, and you are a gentile, where are you in this picture?
believing israel (later known as christians_ are still under God's covenant. in Christ's Blood.
there is no other covenant. any reasonably informed christian should know this. it's amazing how we have the same people in the same thread arguing for salvation by grace through faith; then arguing for "promises" God is supposedly bound to make good on, though they be with antichrists (according to His own definition).
if that contradiction of God and His own words; plan and character makes sense to you, there's something terribly wrong....with your interpretation of the Bible, and worse, with your understanding of what God's Plan was from before creation - to take from among all kindred tongues and nations a people to Himself and call them His people; and he would be their God.
God's faithfulness to the rebellious israelites he made plain was due to His honoring of the Patriarchs; and for His own name's sake.
almost all the blessings promised by God to Abraham were passed on to his direct descendants, and were literally physical in nature (for the purpose of the primary error upholding the false doctrine in this thread, i will use only the "promise" that some can point to (dubiously) - Land/Earthly Kingdom).
anyone can read the Old Testament and with ease discover that God did fulfill His physical promises (land - allotments for every single member of the clan spelled out meticulously in Joshua) even though the people, due to their inability to continue in obedience to the covenant(s), were eventually expelled from the Land.
though they were expelled (for the ultimate GOOD of all mankind), they did inherit the land promised after they were delivered from Egypt. a multitude. millions.
But abraham was also told: in you all the families of the earth shall be blessed (not just israelites). why this is problematic for people (gentiles, who claim to know God and be thankful that He fulfilled this promise is stupifying).
what was the blessing? abraham? jacob? isaac? israel's great wealth? the Law?
or Jesus Christ?
Everyone with even the slightest understanding of the Bible grasps the expanding nature of the promises to eventually involve all of mankind, and all the earth - not just a parcel of land on the Mediterranean.
this expansion is both physical and spiritual as the book of hebrews goes to great lengths to explain. it should, to the shame of those who refuse to see the magnitude of God's Plan from before the foundation of the world, be clear right from Genesis.
One of the most important promises was made to Judah:
"The scepter shall not depart from Judah, nor a lawgiver from between his feet, until Shiloh comes; and to Him shall be the obedience of the people"
did Judah remain the lawgiver forever? everlasting? forever and ever? as far as i know, Judah died.
clearly, Judah descended from Jesse, and David from Jesse. and through David came the redeemer of all mankind - Jesus Christ.
surely we don't disagree on this? who denies this?
jews who don't believe stumble at the idea - reject it entirely. gentiles who don't believe, scoff and think it foolishness.
ONLY those people chosen by God, ONLY His people who are called by His name are those who know Him - through the revelation of Himself in His Son Jesus the Christ.
all who reject Jesus Christ are currently lost, and the bible calls them antichrist.
how do you have God's chosen people being antichrists (liars - according to john)?
what was it that made abraham an actual heir of those promises of God's?
He did not waver at the promise of God through unbelief, but was strengthened in faith, giving glory to God, and being fully convinced that what He had promised He was also able to perform. And therefore 'it was accounted to him for righteousness.
faith.
God chose abraham:
For I have known him, in order that he may command his children and his household after him, that they keep the way of the Lord, to do righteousness and justice, that the Lord may bring to Abraham what He has spoken to him
what had he spoken to him? did abraham and his descendants receive what God had spoken to him?
These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off were assured of them, embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.
no. it says they did not receive the promises. we know they received the land (soil); plots.
they were looking for something other than a plot of land somewhere far from home.
"And all these, having obtained a good testimony through faith, did not receive the promise, God having provided something better for us, that they should not be made perfect apart from us"
this should be obvious. why it is not, God only knows.
there is one covenant.
"For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus. For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ . . . And if you are Christ's, then you are Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise"
that's it.
there is simply NO future promise of any land to anyone on this earth in this Jerusalem, and certainly not for antichrists.
Who is the liar? It is whoever denies that Jesus is the Christ. Such a person is the antichrist--denying the Father and the Son.
how is it anyone has concocted some alternate plan that doesn't exist anywhere in God's revealed will and plan?
simply because they have not believed, not sought for
...the faith that was once for all entrusted to God's holy people....For certain persons have crept in unnoticed, those who were long beforehand marked out for this condemnation, ungodly persons who turn the grace of our God into licentiousness and deny our only Master and Lord, Jesus Christ
This has been argued into the dust.I dont agree with the replacement theology.It's anti-semitic and dangerous.Enough said.
K
kaylagrl
Guest
Perhaps you have ... and are just not willing to listen. From this past November, 2014.
kaylagrl
Senior MemberRe: Gods Mercy,Why the Jews are Still Gods Chosen People
Originally Posted by JamesFlash
if His covenant is with only Isaac, and you are a gentile, where are you in this picture?
believing israel (later known as christians_ are still under God's covenant. in Christ's Blood.
there is no other covenant. any reasonably informed christian should know this. it's amazing how we have the same people in the same thread arguing for salvation by grace through faith; then arguing for "promises" God is supposedly bound to make good on, though they be with antichrists (according to His own definition).
if that contradiction of God and His own words; plan and character makes sense to you, there's something terribly wrong....with your interpretation of the Bible, and worse, with your understanding of what God's Plan was from before creation - to take from among all kindred tongues and nations a people to Himself and call them His people; and he would be their God.
God's faithfulness to the rebellious israelites he made plain was due to His honoring of the Patriarchs; and for His own name's sake.
almost all the blessings promised by God to Abraham were passed on to his direct descendants, and were literally physical in nature (for the purpose of the primary error upholding the false doctrine in this thread, i will use only the "promise" that some can point to (dubiously) - Land/Earthly Kingdom).
anyone can read the Old Testament and with ease discover that God did fulfill His physical promises (land - allotments for every single member of the clan spelled out meticulously in Joshua) even though the people, due to their inability to continue in obedience to the covenant(s), were eventually expelled from the Land.
though they were expelled (for the ultimate GOOD of all mankind), they did inherit the land promised after they were delivered from Egypt. a multitude. millions.
But abraham was also told: in you all the families of the earth shall be blessed (not just israelites). why this is problematic for people (gentiles, who claim to know God and be thankful that He fulfilled this promise is stupifying).
what was the blessing? abraham? jacob? isaac? israel's great wealth? the Law?
or Jesus Christ?
Everyone with even the slightest understanding of the Bible grasps the expanding nature of the promises to eventually involve all of mankind, and all the earth - not just a parcel of land on the Mediterranean.
this expansion is both physical and spiritual as the book of hebrews goes to great lengths to explain. it should, to the shame of those who refuse to see the magnitude of God's Plan from before the foundation of the world, be clear right from Genesis.
One of the most important promises was made to Judah:
"The scepter shall not depart from Judah, nor a lawgiver from between his feet, until Shiloh comes; and to Him shall be the obedience of the people"
did Judah remain the lawgiver forever? everlasting? forever and ever? as far as i know, Judah died.
clearly, Judah descended from Jesse, and David from Jesse. and through David came the redeemer of all mankind - Jesus Christ.
surely we don't disagree on this? who denies this?
jews who don't believe stumble at the idea - reject it entirely. gentiles who don't believe, scoff and think it foolishness.
ONLY those people chosen by God, ONLY His people who are called by His name are those who know Him - through the revelation of Himself in His Son Jesus the Christ.
all who reject Jesus Christ are currently lost, and the bible calls them antichrist.
how do you have God's chosen people being antichrists (liars - according to john)?
what was it that made abraham an actual heir of those promises of God's?
He did not waver at the promise of God through unbelief, but was strengthened in faith, giving glory to God, and being fully convinced that what He had promised He was also able to perform. And therefore 'it was accounted to him for righteousness.
faith.
God chose abraham:
For I have known him, in order that he may command his children and his household after him, that they keep the way of the Lord, to do righteousness and justice, that the Lord may bring to Abraham what He has spoken to him
what had he spoken to him? did abraham and his descendants receive what God had spoken to him?
These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off were assured of them, embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.
no. it says they did not receive the promises. we know they received the land (soil); plots.
they were looking for something other than a plot of land somewhere far from home.
"And all these, having obtained a good testimony through faith, did not receive the promise, God having provided something better for us, that they should not be made perfect apart from us"
this should be obvious. why it is not, God only knows.
there is one covenant.
"For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus. For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ . . . And if you are Christ's, then you are Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise"
that's it.
there is simply NO future promise of any land to anyone on this earth in this Jerusalem, and certainly not for antichrists.
Who is the liar? It is whoever denies that Jesus is the Christ. Such a person is the antichrist--denying the Father and the Son.
how is it anyone has concocted some alternate plan that doesn't exist anywhere in God's revealed will and plan?
simply because they have not believed, not sought for
...the faith that was once for all entrusted to God's holy people....For certain persons have crept in unnoticed, those who were long beforehand marked out for this condemnation, ungodly persons who turn the grace of our God into licentiousness and deny our only Master and Lord, Jesus Christ
This has been argued into the dust.I dont agree with the replacement theology.It's anti-semitic and dangerous.Enough said.
Hummm are you trying to trap me or what? What I meant I hadn't heard of Israel being the Harlot not the replacement theology which you can chase down my comments all over here.They'll all say the same,against the replacement theology,believe the Jews are God's chosen,believe the Muslim faith is satanic. That will save you the search.
S
Sophia
Guest
What about the branches cut off due to unbelief? Are they still "chosen people"?
"No unbeliever is a child of God."
"The Chosen People are the Children of God."
Therefore no unbeliever is one of the Chosen People.
End of story.
"No unbeliever is a child of God."
"The Chosen People are the Children of God."
Therefore no unbeliever is one of the Chosen People.
End of story.
K
kaylagrl
Guest
Israel is the LAST place on earth I would want to be during the last 7 years of this age, especially during the last three and a half years, the period known as The Great Tribulation (Jacob's Trouble), for this is the time that Antichrist sits in the Temple in Jerusalem claiming that he is God and sets about killing every Christian and Jews that he can, indeed the Lord Jesus says that when we see this cardinal sign (of Antichrist sitting in the Temple) we should get out of Jerusalem FAST! Jer 30v7, Dan 7v25, 8v24, 9v27, 11v31, 12v1,7,11, Joel 2v28-3v2, Zech 14v1,2, Matt 24v3,15-22,28, Luke 21v20-24, 2Thess 2v1-12, Rev 11v1,2,8, 13v11, 14v8, 17v16-18-18v24.
Near the very end of the Great Tribulation Antichrist destroys Jerusalem and carries away all remaining Jews into captivity, so we should be telling Christians and Jews to stay far away from Israel and NOT to go there! Luke 21v20-24.
Yahweh Shalom
K
kaylagrl
Guest
Yes I understand your logic but the Bible says at first the anti Christ will bring peace and the Jews will trust him.Then,when he turns they will see they have put their trust in the wrong person.That will go according to plan whether you and I tell them not to go or not.This is Gods plan for the Jews to see their hope was and is Jesus Christ.
Actually, this is not really the case for the majority of the Jews follow Antichrist during the dark evil days of the Great Tribulation and two thirds of them are executed by Christ at His Second Coming for doing so! Zech 13v8
Few Jews will see through Antichrist for what he really is because they are deceived by the mighty lying signs, wonders and miracles that he does and so are put into the lake of fire at Christ's 2nd Coming. Matt 24v24, 2Thess 1v1-12, Rev 13v12,13, 14v9-11