Kenneth Copeland says God is the biggest failure??

[TLC209]

What are you having issues with? What this man says or what the word says?

I would posit to you that these questions are beyond the scope of any one of us "fully". We aren't greater than the enemy by ourselves, so it seems quite simple to put forth arguments and "logic" that is beyond us, or at least causes more consternation than it is worth at present until the mystery of God is finished and faith is sight. We are quite limited in the scope of what we can grasp regarding the infinite, as well as what "secret knowledge" is present.

To some it would seem that the Lord makes mistakes I presume. Since that is not scriptural, you have to make a choice to simply exercise faith. Believing on the Lord and what is laid out in the written word is all you can really do. I've seen many people go for the logic angles but the result is just "not enough for me".


I could counter a lot of these logical pitfalls with what I believe the Lord has sown into me through my own questioning but there will be always be something that sets itself up against the Lord until every knee bows and every tongue confesses that Jesus is Lord. Some new thing to wrap your mind around, to try and "prove things". Logic will only take you so far and so since the written word that anyone (new and old man alike) does not speak to these things any private revelation (I feel) will not assist anyone "really".

Humanistic knowledge and wisdom sets itself up against knowledge and wisdom of the Lord. That is logical to me based off my understanding of scripture. So it seems futile to discuss anything that "goes beyond what is written". It seems to me that a lot of believers do this unintentionally (with good motivation most times probably) but this is where I only enter a conversation when someone is actually thirsty and is hung up on something in their mind. I will say that the Lord meets me quite often in the mental sphere with things like that...and I have many counters, but they are personal. Perhaps if you seek him in this area privately it will yield fruit?

My motivation is usually the first thing I look at when pursuing things like this privately. When it's "just because" or I can't narrow it to anything productive or "reasonable" I usually don't get anywhere. If it's to help others, "how" would that help others? Sure you see it on TV, but how many people get hung up on stuff like this? Surely there are some, I think that's the point. The sheep know the shepherds voice and a stranger they will not follow. They may be led astray, and that is something I believe we can help with, but if they are following someone else other than Jesus, they probably aren't sheep.

Do you have any good reason for the pursuit? Plenty of "preachers" go FAR from the permissible pasture of the Lord and so their motivations for bringing these things up in such a fashion is dubious at best.

Thank you for your response. I enjoyed it. So let me follow up with you.

I posted the thread because this claim Kenneth Copeland made, which is complete blashemy and no man of God can make such claims. So even though by standard and measure I could see why Kenneth made the claim, I proposed to refute the claim. Hence what I came up with.. but that only spiraled even further.

Adam. If Adam was given free will and it was Gods plan to allow Adam to sin. Knowing He would sin, God is all knowing, He knew us before the foundation of the earth, He is the author of our lives, and everything must go through God only Gods plans will prevail.. that being said, lead me to believe God knew Adam would sin and He allowed it to happen.

Im trying to see if anyone else has insight to this debate. I know you said you dont have the answer but thank you for responding.

 

[TLC209]

Well I have some issues with some of what you said...but I think you mean well

GOD only creates good and perfect...he does not build in sin or defects

Lucifer was perfect and yes smartest and most beautiful...but that did not make him fall...He is the father of lies and doer of all wrong...God does not create pride in people they do that...each of us has the ability to choose...a good or evil response to what goes on....the devil being father of wrong...there is none of God in him now and he is fully responsible for it...Adam choose to sin...he knew what was going on...but he recovered...Eve too...there was no sin in either tree...God made both...free will both had and all the angels...so Satan took himself and wiped out all good in himself....he chose it as the other third that fell did....

David chose to look at Bathsheba. He lusted after her...he made clear choice after choice...as other times he made good choices...but...he was free willed...we can all do good or evil...but God does not force evil on us...evil like punishment to us he can do....but he did not create Satan...Lucifer made himself Satan all on his own...he knew who he was when he was good...but he used what he had to try and kill God and take over...go over Him....dumb...si dumb it seems hard to believe...but we do watch people who just won't stop drugs...who won't stop getting drunk...they choose gay..or fornicating...etc...people can hate instead if love when they get hurt... but sin does not work...

I hope I explained well enough

It doesnt answer my question.

Look if you design a product and the product comes out defective that is an error or flaw in the manufacturing. So if God created a defective product that would be fine. But He is perfect He doesnt make mistakes. Lucifer was not defective. He is Gods creation. If the defective product somehow defected itself without the creators permission, it would then be its own creation. Thats the only way to exclude the manufacturer. Like when someone alters the product and it voids the warranty.

Getting back to my point, God made Lucifer defective and prideful. He couldnt have created pride on his own. Just like the main arguement to big bang theory, you cant create something from nothing. You cant create pride from nothing. It had to exist. It was created. It was created by God. That becomes predestined in the scenario of a fallen army of angels and the war between.

You cant claim God is perfect and then claim He made a mistake. Or He didnt create it.

 

[Dave-L]

I watched online how Kenneth Copeland claims God is the biggest failure. He eludes on Adam sinning against Him. Lucifer turning against Him. A third of the angels turning against Him. And so Kenneth Copeland claims God is a failure. The "biggest" failure...

Which lead me to question this. God doesnt make mistakes so He must have intended for these things to happen. He made lucifer knowing his nature and what he would do. He also made Adam knowing he would eat the forbidden fruit. He planned all of that.

If that is correct then He cannot be a failure, because He made it so. It would be His doing for Adam to sin and Lucifer to turn against Him. This is my only logical explanation as to why God is not a failure.

Id like comments on your thoughts. Please dont attack the messenger. You can google it or search on youtube for yourselves. "Kenneth Copeland says God is the biggest failure". His words not mine.

God created all for his glory according to Paul:

“In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will: That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.” Ephesians 1:11–12 (KJV 1900)

“And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ: To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God, According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord:” Ephesians 3:9–11 (KJV 1900)

“What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,” Romans 9:22–23 (KJV 1900)

Without sin, we cannot know God. Sin is the backdrop that displays his wrath, righteousness, judgment, holiness, and goodness in punishing sin. It also displays his love, mercy, righteousness and sovereignty.

Jesus provided the perfect illustration of God's attributes on the cross. In God's love he gave his own life in the place of sinners and enemies so God could forgive and save them. So in this alone we see mercy contrasted with wrath. And Justice in raising Christ from the dead because he was sinless and not deserving of death.

 

[Kolistus]

Not surprised coming from Kenneth Copeland, the biggest fraud

 

[bluto]

you should at least post the entire sermon instead of just lifting a minute of it, unless of course you want to deliberately quote him out of the context.

You should know, posting the whole sermon would only make it worse for copeland. Here are some of the things copeland (and many other wof preachers and teachers teach) http://www.deceptioninthechurch.com/copelnd2.htm

This is only one site out of literally hundreds that expose the teachings of this heretical man. I use to have a ministry focused strickly on the Word of Fath movement. I still have many of his tapes, books, pamphlets, and video's of his own words demeaning Jesus Christ. Copeland stated, "You don't know what happened at the cross."

He said the plan of salvation was "NOT" finished on the cross. Copeland stated that Jesus literally went into hell and was tortured by Satan and his minions. Then God the Father bellowed out, Let Him be." This is where Jesus was born again after He was tortured. Do you really think that the Son of God/God needed to be born again? I could go on and on for at least a week exposing this man's false teachings, and may I add all of his false prophecies. Here's a list of these wof teachers and preachers. http://so4j.com/false-teachers

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto

 

[Aerials1978]

Kenneth Copeland is truly under demonic authority. Not just spiritually but physical as well.

 

[EternalFire]

You know...moses was the humblest man...think he took garbage like this...job did too...what did Joseph say....the day will come you will all bow to me...he was not well received...but he was right in the Lord...i know HIM well..in nothing was I behind the cheifest apostles though I be nothing...i just what HE made me

Mark 9:35 (KJV)
And he sat down, and called the twelve, and saith unto them, If any man desire to be first, the same shall be last of all, and servant of all.

 

[UnoiAmarah]

Look if you design a product and the product comes out defective that is an error or flaw in the manufacturing. So if God created a defective product that would be fine..

It could also be the result of a flawed or poor design. Or maybe inept craftsmanship. Well if God created a defective product then being the Word would that defective product be a lie?

 

[TLC209]

It could also be the result of a flawed or poor design. Or maybe inept craftsmanship. Well if God created a defective product then being the Word would that defective product be a lie?

Would what be a lie? Im sorry can you clarify the question.

Lucifer was His best craftsmanship FYI.

 

[UnoiAmarah]

Would what be a lie? Im sorry can you clarify the question.

Lucifer was His best craftsmanship FYI.

Are you referring unto the serpent that in the garden that spoke to the male and female named Adam?

 

[TLC209]

Are you referring unto the serpent that in the garden that spoke to the male and female named Adam?

Lucifer fell and became satan.. satan is that serpent. Lucifer before he became known as satan was Gods best angel. He was commander of all the angels. He was His top angel. Thats what I refer to as being His best craftsmanship.

This resulted in becoming pride and evil. But its origins were Gods creation. How does it go from being Gods best to Gods worst? And it not be Gods doing? Can angels have free will? Were they created that way?

 

[Isaiah263]

Wolves have (and still to this day) will try to lead the sheep astray by deviating from The Bible. Their destruction will only be a matter of time.


Thus says the Lord of hosts: “Do not listen to the words of the prophets who prophesy to you, filling you with vain hopes. They speak visions of their own minds, not from the mouth of the Lord. 17 They say continually to those who despise the word of the Lord, ‘It shall be well with you’; and to everyone who stubbornly follows his own heart, they say, ‘No disaster shall come upon you.’ ”
-Jeremiah 23:16-17


Behold, the storm of the Lord!
Wrath has gone forth,
a whirling tempest;
it will burst upon the head of the wicked.
The anger of the Lord will not turn back
until he has executed and accomplished
the intents of his heart.
In the latter days you will understand it clearly.

I did not send the prophets,
yet they ran;
I did not speak to them,
yet they prophesied.
But if they had stood in my council,
then they would have proclaimed my words to my people,
and they would have turned them from their evil way,
and from the evil of their deeds.

-Jeremiah 23:19-22

But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing upon themselves swift destruction. 2 And many will follow their sensuality, and because of them the way of truth will be blasphemed. 3 And in their greed they will exploit you with false words. Their condemnation from long ago is not idle, and their destruction is not asleep.
-2 Peter 2:1-3

 

[Going_Nowhere]

No.


I'm the biggest failure. And that's no lie.

 

[Nehemiah6]

Even by your response would actually validate Kenneth Copeland. If He gave Adam free reign then by Adam sinning it was a failure on Gods part.

How could it be a failure on God's part when I already said that God had an excellent plan right from the beginning, which would culminate in the New Heavens and the New Earth? Unless mankind had free will, men and women could not choose to freely obey God and obey the Gospel. And that is why God did not create robots. And let's not forget that the creature is not to sit in judgment on the Creator.

ROMANS 9
20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,
24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

 

[oyster67]

Are you sure that he was not being facetious? Not that I for one second believe anything he says or even preaches.......just saying that it seems like off the cuff he could be being facetious to prove a point??

Perhaps, but I think he looks and sounds a little tippsy. I hear the sound of giggling in the background also. Definitely not the kind of '"church" I would want to be found in when the King comes back in all His glory, majesty, honor, and power.

1 Thess 5
5:5 Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.
5:6 Therefore let us not sleep, as [do] others; but let us watch and be sober.
5:7 For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night.
5:8 But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation.

I am preaching to myself on this one.

 

[UnoiAmarah]

Lucifer fell and became satan.. satan is that serpent. Lucifer before he became known as satan was Gods best angel. He was commander of all the angels. He was His top angel. Thats what I refer to as being His best craftsmanship.

This resulted in becoming pride and evil. But its origins were Gods creation. How does it go from being Gods best to Gods worst? And it not be Gods doing? Can angels have free will? Were they created that way?

Well, that is definitely one way to interpret it.

I took it that the serpent was made by the LORD God so he had to be good, and since he could speak then he must have been a man, since the ability to speak in tongues was only given unto man, and like Jesus said:

And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:John 3:14
Then said Jesus unto them, When ye have lifted up the Son of man, then shall ye know that I am he, and that I do nothing of myself; but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things John 8:28

 

[TLC209]

Perhaps, but I think he looks and sounds a little tippsy. I hear the sound of giggling in the background also. Definitely not the kind of '"church" I would want to be found in when the King comes back in all His glory, majesty, honor, and power.

1 Thess 5
5:5 Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.
5:6 Therefore let us not sleep, as [do] others; but let us watch and be sober.
5:7 For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night.
5:8 But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation.

I am preaching to myself on this one.

I believe they may have been laughing. You mention laughing and it reminds me of the Todd White video where Todd skips a rock on water. He prayed before he skipped the rock and his friends all laughed that he was praying. Seemed like they were mocking. (Todd White is a Kenneth Copeland protege.)

 

[TLC209]

How could it be a failure on God's part when I already said that God had an excellent plan right from the beginning, which would culminate in the New Heavens and the New Earth? Unless mankind had free will, men and women could not choose to freely obey God and obey the Gospel. And that is why God did not create robots. And let's not forget that the creature is not to sit in judgment on the Creator.

ROMANS 9
20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,
24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

So then you agree with my OP? This was all Gods plan. Sin entering the world, Lucifers fall and subsequently Adams fall...

Does it bother you that people end up in hell in this scenario? That scripure is really eye opening because it says He created vessels fitted for destruction and He created vessles for honor. So then some were meant to go to heaven and some were meant to go to hell. I believe He says many are called but FEW ARE CHOSEN.

 

[UnoiAmarah]

I did not send the prophets,
yet they ran;
I did not speak to them,
yet they prophesied.
But if they had stood in my council,
then they would have proclaimed my words to my people,
and they would have turned them from their evil way,
and from the evil of their deeds.

-Jeremiah 23:19-22

Yet they couldn't learn to read without a teacher

by the book is delivered to him that is not learned,
saying, Read this, I pray thee: and he saith, ........
Isa 29:11-12

 

[pottersclay]

What we tend to forget is that God created for a purpose. His creation has a time limit. And all things created are subject to him.
I wouldn't think for a moment that God was caught by surprise at the rebellion of Lucifer nor the fall of man.
All of creation was deemed very good but not perfect. Now you have to ask yourself very good for what.
By our first parents choice we wanted to know good and evil, sorta weigh out on which way we should go.
The serpent then provoked a more appealing lie saying that we would be as gods by doing this.

In order to establish truth there has to be a counterfeit. In order to show love there has to be evil. In order to show life there needed to be death.
So which way should we go?
Jesus said he is the way, he is the truth, he is the life. Now does that scripture come more to your understanding?
Scripture also tells us that the pride of life (which covers many topics) is the worst of all offences. It lead to the rebellion and also the fall. Thinking more of yourself than you really are is endless.
The serpent uses this to lure away his prey then attacks and devours.
By one man sin (the counterfeit) entered the world.
Looking at the text it brought to mind that all the trees God planted were singular that is to say it's seed brought its own kind only.
Even the tree of life. Now we have a tree that has 2 possible fruits good and evil. Still working on that😏😏😏