Keystone passes Senate

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Dec 18, 2013
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#61
As far as climate change, if the climate be just the environment around us, then yes, there is much human induced climate change, and there always has been for as long as history. Humans ain't alone in it of course, because climate change is as simple as littering or as simple as cleaning said litter up. And even the litter example, that is somewhat an extremist position, because it is ever simpler, as breathing.

As far as Keystone Pipeline, lol passing that is better for Canada than it is for USA in my opinion. Obviously for Canada they get to bypass a huge geological barrier straight into one of the most lucrative sea routes of the current time. Just building it would add jobs, no one disputes that. What sort of benefits though do Americans gain after building it to maintain it? That I have not heard. Nevertheless, a deal is a deal if it is agreed to..
 

p_rehbein

Senior Member
Sep 4, 2013
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#62
As far as climate change, if the climate be just the environment around us, then yes, there is much human induced climate change, and there always has been for as long as history. Humans ain't alone in it of course, because climate change is as simple as littering or as simple as cleaning said litter up. And even the litter example, that is somewhat an extremist position, because it is ever simpler, as breathing.

As far as Keystone Pipeline, lol passing that is better for Canada than it is for USA in my opinion. Obviously for Canada they get to bypass a huge geological barrier straight into one of the most lucrative sea routes of the current time. Just building it would add jobs, no one disputes that. What sort of benefits though do Americans gain after building it to maintain it? That I have not heard. Nevertheless, a deal is a deal if it is agreed to..
Benefits, as I have understood the arguments, are jobs created for US workers ----- many of them Union jobs.....Yes, temporary in the building stage, but that temporary translates into the number of years needed to fully complete the pipeline. So, it's not just a summer job like HS kids get flipping burgers.

The crude sent down the pipeline will be refined by US Refineries........job security and increases of jobs.......and, contrary to some arguments, ALL of the oil refined will not be shipped abroad. However, this shipping abroad isn't an evil thing either. Assisting our Allies in becoming energy independent of Middle East Oil, Russian or old Hugo's oil is not a bad thing.

Benefits the US in that a supply of crude not subject to the whims of Middle East OPEC Nations can only enhance our National Security.

Sure there are others...........but this is a start.

(Edited to add) The majority of construction jobs..........whatever the type.....ARE by their very nature "temporary." In that ONCE the job is completed............construction is ended, and folks move on to the next job. So when opponents argue that the jobs created are only temporary, they are just misrepresenting truth.
 
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Dec 18, 2013
6,733
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#63
Benefits, as I have understood the arguments, are jobs created for US workers ----- many of them Union jobs.....Yes, temporary in the building stage, but that temporary translates into the number of years needed to fully complete the pipeline. So, it's not just a summer job like HS kids get flipping burgers.

The crude sent down the pipeline will be refined by US Refineries........job security and increases of jobs.......and, contrary to some arguments, ALL of the oil refined will not be shipped abroad. However, this shipping abroad isn't an evil thing either. Assisting our Allies in becoming energy independent of Middle East Oil, Russian or old Hugo's oil is not a bad thing.

Benefits the US in that a supply of crude not subject to the whims of Middle East OPEC Nations can only enhance our National Security.

Sure there are others...........but this is a start.

(Edited to add) The majority of construction jobs..........whatever the type.....ARE by their very nature "temporary." In that ONCE the job is completed............construction is ended, and folks move on to the next job. So when opponents argue that the jobs created are only temporary, they are just misrepresenting truth.
These seem fair enough to warrant a deal to be discussed, however much of that is a given. See here though even among these positive and reasonable reasons it is the corporations and government that do benefit. Now I have no qualms for them to benefit off of what is theirs. It is thus fair for us to benefit off of what is ours. I would like to see more about how the American himself benefits.

To be a bit more specific, consider for instance the very places and people living around where this pipeline will run. What sort of provisions in the long term do they get for allowing the pipeline to run through their locale?
 

p_rehbein

Senior Member
Sep 4, 2013
30,796
6,949
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#64
These seem fair enough to warrant a deal to be discussed, however much of that is a given. See here though even among these positive and reasonable reasons it is the corporations and government that do benefit. Now I have no qualms for them to benefit off of what is theirs. It is thus fair for us to benefit off of what is ours. I would like to see more about how the American himself benefits.

To be a bit more specific, consider for instance the very places and people living around where this pipeline will run. What sort of provisions in the long term do they get for allowing the pipeline to run through their locale?
Should be able to Google that and find out. There are already miles and miles of pipeline across the US today. This isn't the first time pipelines have been built. The Government's Oil Reserve is fed and tapped via pipelines.

Other pipelines exist as well.
 
Dec 18, 2013
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#65
Should be able to Google that and find out. There are already miles and miles of pipeline across the US today. This isn't the first time pipelines have been built. The Government's Oil Reserve is fed and tapped via pipelines.

Other pipelines exist as well.
Aye indeed and those pipelines are largely American controlled and parts of the benefits of trade do go to the benefit of the American people. However, from my understanding this Keystone Pipeline is to be owned by the Canadians. They may own it as they please, however deals of this nature do require they benefit the American people since they own the land.
 
V

Viligant_Warrior

Guest
#66
Aye indeed and those pipelines are largely American controlled and parts of the benefits of trade do go to the benefit of the American people. However, from my understanding this Keystone Pipeline is to be owned by the Canadians. They may own it as they please, however deals of this nature do require they benefit the American people since they own the land.
Actually, the refineries supplied by the pipeline own it. TransCanada owns only the rights to build the pipeline. It will be turned over to the end-user refineries at the end of construction.

The fact that refineries in the U.S. are the end-users is often misrepresented by opponents. They claim the crude shipped through the pipeline will then be loaded on tankers and sent away from the U.S., thus giving us no economic benefit. That's a lie. The crude in the pipeline is purchased from TransCanada, refined and distributed according to refinery contracts. Some will stay int he U.S., some will be exported, but all the oil will result in increased productivity, and thousands of permanent oil industry jobs in the U.S.
 
Oct 30, 2014
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#67
again you just do not get it, 1,000 years ago Greenland was warm. go back farther the Sahara was green. go back farther where I live was under a lot of ice.

but go ahead believe in the scam of man made global warmin.. er climate change.. which used to be called global cooling in the 70s.
Climates always change. Earth has self-regulating mechanisms to ensure that. However, Greenland wasn't warm a thousad years ago, more like a few hundred thousand. And yea, the Sahara, a very long time ago, may have sat at a point on Earth where life was abundant. Climates always change. That's not a disputed fact. I agree; they do.

But, out climate is changing to a rapid degree for which natural global process (without the mass pollutants of industry) cannot account for. Now, this is not itself an issue from a ''the world always changes climate'' perspetive. We won't destroy planet Earth by burning fossil fuels ad continuing to release CO2. What will happen is that the climate will change more dramatically than it should, and in a few hundred thousand years, it will have rebalanced itself, as CO2 dissolves in the bigger oceans formed from melting ice-caps and as ice begins to slowly reform at the poles.

But that world shouldn't be seen by natural non-human means for hundreds of thousands of years. What we are doing is accelerating the natural climatic shifts of the planet, and the problem with that is that it will be catastrophic for our race, and for various others.

So yea, while climates do shift and change, while the world's dry or wet areas are not eternally dry or wet, what we are doing, by being environmentally irresponsible, is catalyzing a dramatic, acute shift in the Earth's weather systems and climate that will become increasingly detrimental to the survival of our species.

The reason there is a confusion about ''global warming'' terminology is this;

CO2 holds heat. More CO2 in the atmopshere means more retention of heat. That retention of heat will cause the ice caps to melt in summer months, and if they do, and there is no sheet ice available to maintain temperatures for more substantial sheets to form in winter months, then that cold water will flow freely throughout the world in from the poles. That cold water will alter our currents, make our seas colder, cause more severe storms, decimate landmasses, (for instance the entire Eastern Seaboard would virtually disappear). Now, that means less land mass, and more water. Water dissolves CO2.

So, the ice caps have melted because of a planet too hot (from excess CO2 and heat retention), the seas have risen, and the oceans now dominate the planet more than they currently do. Seas dissolve carbon dioxide, so the carbon disoxide would dissolve eventually and we'd be left with the same or less ability for global heat retention that we do now.

This means that tropical areas' flora will generally die off due to increasingly cold temperatures, trees will take CO2 and oxygenate it (a large majority of the world's mammals will struggle to survive the cold, including us), there'll be massive population decreases and we'll have eventually, an over-oxygenated atmosphere.

Oxygen and nitrogen (the man gases in the atmosphere) do not absorb radiation and aren't particularly good at heat retention, so the Earth gets cooler.

All this is of course, just a matter of time in natural progression. Earth goes throught climate cycles -- ice ages -- periodically and naturally. The point is, we are massively accelerating the process, and in the next century we can expect mass famines, droughts and displacements because of it.

If we don't find environmentally sustainable solutions to meet our energy needs, we risk causing huge unnecessary displacements, famines, deaths, floods and storms absolutely unnecessarily and, most importantly, far prematurely.