King Messiah vs the Suffering Servant

[eternally-gratefull]

In another discussion I had said the messiah had only fulfilled one aspect of everything prophesied about him. So I had said I would make another thread to show this.

Prophesies concerning the messiah:

Isaiah 9:6–7
6 For unto us a Child is born, Unto us a Son is given; And the government will be upon His shoulder. And His name will be called Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.
7 Of the increase of His government and peace There will be no end, Upon the throne of David and over His kingdom, To order it and establish it with judgment and justice From that time forward, even forever. The zeal of the Lord of hosts will perform this.

Micah 5:2
2 “But you, Bethlehem Ephrathah, Though you are little among the thousands of Judah, Yet out of you shall come forth to Me The One to be Ruler in Israel, Whose goings forth are from long ago, from eternity.”

Zechariah 14:9, 16
9 And the Lord will be king over all the earth; in that day the Lord will be the only one, and His name the only one
16 Then it will come about that any who are left of all the nations that went against Jerusalem will go up from year to year to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, and to celebrate the Feast of Booths.

The last one is important.
1. The lord will be king over all the earth. As of this time, we are told the world belongs to satan. And the earth has MANY kings.
2. It speaks of many nations who went up against jerusalem to destroy it. Here Zecharaih says any people left on earth when Christ returns to assume his throne will come to Jerusalem every year to worship Christ himself.
3. This has not happened yet. This is what Israel was looking for. This is why they rejected Christ. This is why jews today do not even consider daniel scripture. and why they still are in darkness.
4. This is prophesied in Rev. John saw it, when all the nations were arrayed against Jerusalem to destroy it. And Christ returns destroys these armies. And the only people remaining would be "All Israel" and every gentile who "endured till the end" and believed in Christ.

Suffering servant

Isaiah 53:2–12
2 For He grew up before Him like a tender shoot, And like a root out of parched ground; He has no stately form or majesty That we should look upon Him, Nor appearance that we should be attracted to Him.
3 He was despised and forsaken of men, A man of sorrows and acquainted with grief; And like one from whom men hide their face He was despised, and we did not esteem Him. 4 Surely our griefs He Himself bore, And our sorrows He carried; Yet we ourselves esteemed Him stricken, Smitten of God, and afflicted. 5 But He was pierced through for our transgressions, He was crushed for our iniquities; The chastening for our well-being fell upon Him, And by His scourging we are healed. 6 All of us like sheep have gone astray, Each of us has turned to his own way; But the Lord has caused the iniquity of us all To fall on Him. 7 He was oppressed and He was afflicted, Yet He did not open His mouth; Like a lamb that is led to slaughter, And like a sheep that is silent before its shearers, So He did not open His mouth.
8 By oppression and judgment He was taken away; And as for His generation, who considered That He was cut off out of the land of the living For the transgression of my people, to whom the stroke was due?
9 His grave was assigned with wicked men, Yet He was with a rich man in His death, Because He had done no violence, Nor was there any deceit in His mouth. 10 But the Lord was pleased To crush Him, putting Him to grief; If He would render Himself as a guilt offering, He will see His offspring, He will prolong His days, And the good pleasure of the Lord will prosper in His hand. 11 As a result of the anguish of His soul, He will see it and be satisfied; By His knowledge the Righteous One, My Servant, will justify the many, As He will bear their iniquities.
12 Therefore, I will allot Him a portion with the great, And He will divide the booty with the strong; Because He poured out Himself to death, And was numbered with the transgressors; Yet He Himself bore the sin of many, And interceded for the transgressors.

Here are the differences!

King Messiah:

1. Come take power
2. King over the whole Earth
3. Kill his enemy
4. Never die

Suffering servant

1. Come to suffer
2. No kingdom
3. Die for his enemy
4. Suffer BAD death

We can not make the king messiah's kingdom be eternal and spiritual. The biggest reason is the last prophesy concerning Messiah. Where those left on earth from the nations who came to destroy Jerusalem return to worship Jesus as he sits on David's throen!











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[zone]

We can not make the king messiah's kingdom be eternal and spiritual.

Galatians 3:16
Now the promises were made to Abraham and to his offspring. It does not say, “And to offsprings,” referring to many, but referring to one, “And to your offspring,” who is Christ.

hi bud.
if we can only see that Daniel 9 is fulfilled, we then see Jesus IS King.
and that His Kingdom IS eternal and spiritual (but very real indeed).
He entered Jerusalem as King. He ascended as King. He is King.

just because some of His own received Him not doesn't change a thing (Paul wished he could forfeit his own salvation to save his flesh kin...he wouldn't have said this if dispensationalism were true).

just because some of His own received Him not doesn't mean that God did not in Christ at His Incarnation:

finish the transgression
make an end of sins
make reconciliation for iniquity
bring in everlasting righteousness
seal up the vision and prophecy
anoint the most Holy

in fact, He did do all these things. all of them.


Daniel 9
24Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy. 25Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times. 26And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined. 27And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.


if He didn't do all these things, not one of us is saved.


Matthew 3:9
And do not think you can say to yourselves, 'We have Abraham as our father.' I tell you that out of these stones God can raise up children for Abraham.

Romans 4:13
It was not through law that Abraham and his offspring received the promise that he would be heir of the world, but through the righteousness that comes by faith.

Romans 9:8
This means that it is not the children of the flesh who are the children of God, but the children of the promise are counted as offspring.

Galatians 3:29
If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

Galatians 4
Example of Hagar and Sarah
21Tell me, you who desire to be under the law, do you not listen to the law? 22For it is written that Abraham had two sons, one by a slave woman and one by a free woman. 23But the son of the slave was born according to the flesh, while the son of the free woman was born through promise. 24Now this may be interpreted allegorically: these women are two covenants. One is from Mount Sinai, bearing children for slavery; she is Hagar. 25Now Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia; she corresponds to the present Jerusalem, for she is in slavery with her children. 26But the Jerusalem above is free, and she is our mother. 27For it is written,

“Rejoice, O barren one who does not bear;
break forth and cry aloud, you who are not in labor!
For the children of the desolate one will be more
than those of the one who has a husband.”

28Now you, brothers, like Isaac, are children of promise. 29But just as at that time he who was born according to the flesh persecuted him who was born according to the Spirit, so also it is now. 30But what does the Scripture say? “Cast out the slave woman and her son, for the son of the slave woman shall not inherit with the son of the free woman.” 31So, brothers, we are not children of the slave but of the free woman.

Romans 11:31
so they too have now been disobedient in order that by the mercy shown to you they also may now receive mercy.[1900+ years ago paul said this]

love zone

 

[silverwind]

There is no end to sin....yet. Everlasting righteousness.... nope. Still to come.
hi zone.. on some things we agree on, on some things I have to agree with EG.

still studying tho,... and that's always the exciting part!

 

[zone]

There is no end to sin....yet. Everlasting righteousness.... nope. Still to come.
hi zone.. on some things we agree on, on some things I have to agree with EG.

still studying tho,... and that's always the exciting part!

yes. i understand.

George Whitefield did a cool study on the everlasting righteousness.

The Righteousness of Christ, an Everlasting Righteousness - George Whitefield

if His propitiation, and substitutionary atonement did not make a full of my sin, i'm hellbound.
if He was was not raised from the grave for my justification, i am still guilty before God.
if His Righteousness is not credited to my account, i have no garment whatsoever.

2 Corinthians 5:21
For our sake he made him to be sin who knew no sin, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.

1 Corinthians 15:17
And if Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile and you are still in your sins.

Romans 4:25
He was delivered over to death for our sins and was raised to life for our justification.

His Righteousness is everlasting.
and is imputed to the believer's account.

dispensationalism is a travesty that has hurt us alot.
i wish i could sweep it away.

love you.
zoney

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Galatians 3:16
Now the promises were made to Abraham and to his offspring. It does not say, “And to offsprings,” referring to many, but referring to one, “And to your offspring,” who is Christ.

What does this have to do with king messiah? The suffering servant fulfilled this part of the covenant.

Actually you would have been better off looking earlier.

6 just as Abraham “believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.”[c] 7 Therefore know that only those who are of faith are sons of Abraham. 8 And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel to Abraham beforehand, saying, “In you all the nations shall be blessed.”[d] 9 So then those who are of faith are blessed with believing Abraham.

Of course, as I have said many times. This is the only aspect of the abrahamic covenant that concerns Gentiles, or those not of the "natural flesh" of Abrqaham. All other parts of the covenant deal with Israel.

Also of amazing fact is that this is the only salvic aspect of ALL OT Covenants God made with man. All the rest of the covenants deal with God and his dealing with man ON EARTH.

I will ask you like i asked someone else. were Adam, Abraham, King David, And yourself saved the same way? or were you all saved different ways?

hi bud.
if we can only see that Daniel 9 is fulfilled, we then see Jesus IS King.
and that His Kingdom IS eternal and spiritual (but very real indeed).
He entered Jerusalem as King. He ascended as King. He is King.

just because some of His own received Him not doesn't change a thing (Paul wished he could forfeit his own salvation to save his flesh kin...he wouldn't have said this if dispensationalism were true).

just because some of His own received Him not doesn't mean that God did not in Christ at His Incarnation:

finish the transgression
make an end of sins
make reconciliation for iniquity
bring in everlasting righteousness
seal up the vision and prophecy
anoint the most Holy

1. This prophesy concerned Davids people only. Not the church. No gentile. David was not praying for gentiles or the church, he was praying for his people. He was p[raying as per lev 26. Where God said in mosaic law if his people (Israel) would repent and return to him. God would return them to their land. Relent from his judgment against them, and again be there God.

In fact EZ prophesies this owuld happen. This was not fulliled by their return from babylon. Because not all israel returned. Nor had they repented before or even while they returned.

Ezekiel 37:11-14
Then He said to me, “Son of man, these bones are the whole house of Israel. They indeed say, ‘Our bones are dry, our hope is lost, and we ourselves are cut off!’ 12 Therefore prophesy and say to them, ‘Thus says the Lord GOD: “Behold, O My people, I will open your graves and cause you to come up from your graves, and bring you into the land of Israel. 13 Then you shall know that I am the LORD, when I have opened your graves, O My people, and brought you up from your graves. 14 I will put My Spirit in you, and you shall live, and I will place you in your own land. Then you shall know that I, the LORD, have spoken it and performed it,” says the LORD.’”

15 Again the word of the LORD came to me, saying, 16 “As for you, son of man, take a stick for yourself and write on it: ‘For Judah and for the children of Israel, his companions.’ Then take another stick and write on it, ‘For Joseph, the stick of Ephraim, and for all the house of Israel, his companions.’ 17 Then join them one to another for yourself into one stick, and they will become one in your hand.
18 “And when the children of your people speak to you, saying, ‘Will you not show us what you mean by these?’— 19 say to them, ‘Thus says the Lord GOD: “Surely I will take the stick of Joseph, which is in the hand of Ephraim, and the tribes of Israel, his companions; and I will join them with it, with the stick of Judah, and make them one stick, and they will be one in My hand.”’ 20 And the sticks on which you write will be in your hand before their eyes.
21 “Then say to them, ‘Thus says the Lord GOD: “Surely I will take the children of Israel from AMONG THE NATIONS, WHEREVER THEY HAVE GONE, and will gather them from every side and bring them into their own land; 22 and I will make them one nation in the land, on the mountains of Israel; and one king shall be king over them all; they shall no longer be two nations, nor shall they ever be divided into two kingdoms again. 23 They shall not defile themselves anymore with their idols, nor with their detestable things, nor with any of their transgressions; but I will deliver them from all their dwelling places in which they have sinned, and will cleanse them. Then they shall be My people, and I will be their God.
24 “David My servant shall be king over them, and they shall all have one shepherd; they shall also walk in My judgments and observe My statutes, and do them. 25 Then they shall dwell in the land that I have given to Jacob My servant, where your fathers dwelt; and they shall dwell there, they, their children, and their children’s children, forever; and My servant David shall be their prince forever. 26 Moreover I will make a covenant of peace with them, and it shall be an everlasting covenant with them; I will establish them and multiply them, and I will set My sanctuary in their midst forevermore. 27 My tabernacle also shall be with them; indeed I will be their God, and they shall be My people. 28 The nations also will know that I, the LORD, sanctify Israel, when My sanctuary is in their midst forevermore.”’”

This HAS NOT happened yet.

Also in daniel 9

Daniel 9 unfulfilled.

end of 69th week. Messiah cut of (literally fulfilled to the day)

after 69th week.

the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary;

fulfilled 70 AD (36 years past week 69the week so already a gap between 69th and 70th week)

and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

Still happening today almost 2000 years past 69th week

27And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week:

He is the prince who is to come. Who is come out of the people who destroyed the city and sanctuary in 70 AD

Has not happened yet

and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate,

Also spoken of By jesus, during the end time when great tribulation will begin (Jesus states this great tribulation period will immediately follow this event, and warned all who are on earth)

Has not happened yet

even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

Signified Christ return to the earth, to consumate what was determined to be poured out on the desolate (the final great battle before Christ assumes his throne. and an "end of sin" has happened to Daniels people as prophesied. as they have repented and recieved her king.

Has not happened yet.

Romans 11:31
so they too have now been disobedient in order that by the mercy shown to you they also may now receive mercy.[1900+ years ago paul said this]

love zone

Romans 11:
25 For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own opinion, that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. 26 And so all Israel will be saved,[g] as it is written:


“ The Deliverer will come out of Zion,
And He will turn away ungodliness from Jacob;
27 For this is My covenant with them,
When I take away their sins.”[h]

28 Concerning the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but concerning the election they are beloved for the sake of the fathers. 29 For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.

1. Paul spoke of a future event
2. Paul spoke of the deliverer, who will (in the future) come out of Zion. And turn away the godliness of Jacob (israel, not the church, no gentiles included)
3. Speaks of this happeneing after the time of the gentiles is completed. (since there has only been the church since Israels rejection. The gentiles must be the church. Paul is saying the time of the church must come to an end./ THEN all israel will be saved.
4. Paul said this 1900 some years go.

Still love ya sis!

 

[eternally-gratefull]

dispensationalism is a travesty that has hurt us alot.
i wish i could sweep it away.

love you.
zoney

How has it heart us? I don't see how it has hurt the church or anyone else. It is not even salvic in nature.

I would love to sweep away works gospel. Water baptismal regeneration and other things that do concern eternity. But why are you so against this

I know some dispensationalists are pretty off. But then so are some faith based gospels (licenbtiousness) but that does not make the faith based gospel wrong.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

There is no end to sin....yet. Everlasting righteousness.... nope. Still to come.
hi zone.. on some things we agree on, on some things I have to agree with EG.

still studying tho,... and that's always the exciting part!

I love studying this stuff. It is the most exciting. Especially today since I think we are starting to see some of this stuff come true!

 

[silverwind]

yes. i understand.

i wish i could sweep it away.

love you.
zoney

 

[zone]

How has it heart us? I don't see how it has hurt the church or anyone else. It is not even salvic in nature.

I would love to sweep away works gospel. Water baptismal regeneration and other things that do concern eternity. But why are you so against this

I know some dispensationalists are pretty off. But then so are some faith based gospels (licenbtiousness) but that does not make the faith based gospel wrong.

Dispensational theology hangs on a few threads.
one of the hallmarks of it is the GAPS that are inserted into strategic prophecies.
the flow of Redemptive History was literally chopped up and reshuffled like a deck of cards.

some glaring examples are:

Romans 11
Joel 2
Daniel 9

it also uses an isreal-centric hermeneutic rather than a Christocentric hermeneutic.

a good example is the corruption of Genesis 12

another problem is the misunderstanding of Revelation 20, which is required for the isreal-centric futurist view.

another probelm that naturally arises out of the isreal-centric view is the refusal to accept the clear identification of earthly jerusalem as Mystery babylon.

there's a really clear reason all this was done.
its the Leaven of the Pharisees, jewish fables, the eschaton played out appearing to be one thing when its really something else.

but we've been over this many times, and i'm off to bed.

a demain
z

 

[silverwind]

I love studying this stuff. It is the most exciting. Especially today since I think we are starting to see some of this stuff come true!

i agree, but in a public forum it is hard to "study" because there are so many different views and interpretations, ruffling everyone's feathers...
a small group study would be awesome tho.. (like in my living room)

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Dispensational theology hangs on a few threads.
one of the hallmarks of it is the GAPS that are inserted into strategic prophecies.
the flow of Redemptive History was literally chopped up and reshuffled like a deck of cards.

Dispensationalism has nothing to do with redemptive history. Unless there are some who believe people were saved differently between each dispensation. I have yet to meet one which believe that way. But I have read some people that do. These people are in error.

Abraham was saved by faith. Not by any works. Hebrews makes it clear. The law never saved anyone. In fact it gave the "faith hall of fame" section which also included Abel and noah. WHich shows mankind was always saved by faith.

So one must ask. If man has always saved by faith. what do these covenants have to do with man and redemption? If they do not deal with redemption. Than is it not logical to conclude they deal with Gods dealing with man on earth?

some glaring examples are:

Romans 11
Joel 2
Daniel 9

Well Joel 2 is a weak argument. Probably why either have never seen it used, or don't remember it being used.

Romans 11 is clear. You would have to misinterpret romans 11 to say it is not going to happen as Paul said it would. WHich it has not yet.

Daniel 9. we have been over this. It has not yet been fulfilled. Only the redemptive aspect (messiah cut off) has been. The rest is still unfulfilled.

it also uses an isreal-centric hermeneutic rather than a Christocentric hermeneutic.

Christ is the Greek word for Messiah. As I just showed in this thread. The messiah was promised to COME do certain things. The only thing he has fulfilled. is being born. We(At least ) Do use a christ centric interpretation. I also use a literal one, not a chopped up symbolic interpretation.

a good example is the corruption of Genesis 12

Ah this great passage. A passage which promises abraham and his physical descendants a place on earth and Gods love. And that someone from his family would bless all the nations of the world. Which would be us. Only one aspect of this whole covenant is salvic. The rest is Gods promise to people as they are alive on this earth which God said was an eternal covenant and he would never break.

another problem is the misunderstanding of Revelation 20, which is required for the isreal-centric futurist view.

Literal interpretation of prophesy is a must. Or God is no better than a false God who can not prophesy time.

another probelm that naturally arises out of the isreal-centric view is the refusal to accept the clear identification of earthly jerusalem as Mystery babylon.

It is not clear. Jerusalem does not possess the characteristics of babylon. not even close. This believe only comes from antisemetism.

there's a really clear reason all this was done.
its the Leaven of the Pharisees, jewish fables, the eschaton played out appearing to be one thing when its really something else.

but we've been over this many times, and i'm off to bed.

a demain
z

It is interesting. you are the first (non catholic) that I know of who believes in this stuff. I believe this stuff comes from a serious hatred of anything jewish. A pridefull heart that the church somehow can fulfill the historical nation covenants of Israel. And a turn from literal interpretation to a symbolic interpretation of prophesy which came about sometime in the first century.

But it does not matter. I still love and respect you. even if we disagree on this matter

 

[eternally-gratefull]

i agree, but in a public forum it is hard to "study" because there are so many different views and interpretations, ruffling everyone's feathers...
a small group study would be awesome tho.. (like in my living room)

It would be alot easier. There is so much info to go over. It is hard to do it in a chat room..

 

[zone]

It is not clear. Jerusalem does not possess the characteristics of babylon. not even close. This believe only comes from antisemetism.

end of conversation.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

end of conversation.

Sorry sis. Just explain my belief. As you say, dispensationalism must come from a pro Israel belief. It goes to figure non dispensations must come from a anti israel belief. I was not saying it to be mean or sarcasatic! if you took it that way forgive me

The catholic church at one time were very antisemetic. Thjis is where I believe the belief comes from. "Luther's writing on the Jews amazed me how much hatred they actually had back then.

 

[zone]

s'okay.
another subject maybe.
just ain't jumping through those hoops anymore.

 

[Strangelove]

It is not clear. Jerusalem does not possess the characteristics of babylon. not even close. This believe only comes from antisemetism.

Astounding ignorance born of spiritually violent brainwashing.

 

[Strangelove]

It is interesting. you are the first (non catholic) that I know of who believes in this stuff. I believe this stuff comes from a serious hatred of anything jewish. A pridefull heart that the church somehow can fulfill the historical nation covenants of Israel. And a turn from literal interpretation to a symbolic interpretation of prophesy which came about sometime in the first century.

But it does not matter. I still love and respect you. even if we disagree on this matter

You say you love and respect her yet in the same breath that her thinking comes from hatred.

I think you are two faced.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Astounding ignorance born of spiritually violent brainwashing.

yeah and I could say the same about you, but where would that get us?

Amazing you could be that way!

 

[eternally-gratefull]

You say you love and respect her yet in the same breath that her thinking comes from hatred.

I think you are two faced.

Well if your mind was not so shut on things you do not agree with. You would have known I said I believe this be;lief was "BORN OUT OF" a hatred for the jews. It was founded by catholics in the first century when they switched from a literal interpretation to a symbolic interpretation (which they have to do to make most of their doctrines come true and be believable), And even showed the hatred they had for the jews at that time, And was not saying she was antisemetic.

There is a HUGE difference!

 

[Strangelove]

yeah and I could say the same about you, but where would that get us?

Amazing you could be that way!

Cool, lets have a little crosscheck of which institutions each of us have been exposed to and see where brainwashing has taken place.

Me:

Never set foot in a church in my life.

You:

?