Knowing God.

[2Christ]

God showed His ways to Moses, and His acts to Israel (psalm 103:7). For Moses, it was not enough to see God's acts. Moses had seen God's power in miraculous ways. Even the fact that he survived a face to face meeting with Pharaoh is amazing. Why did Pharaoh not have Moses killed immediately?

After 10 terrible plagues, Moses led Israel out of Egypt and into the wilderness. Israel took Egypt's wealth and livestock. Egypt's army was destroyed in the Red Sea. Israel was protected by God's mighty power. Yet still the people complained.

Moses soon realised that he was unable to lead the nation freed from slavery. He knew God already, speaking with God in the tent of meeting. So he did the only sensible thing. He sought God for more. His experience to that time was not enough. So he asked God to reveal His ways.

God graciously obliged. You can read this in Exodus 33 & 34.

Many believers have only book knowledge of God. It is not enough, especially in this age of confusion, doubt, unbelief and increasing hostility to the true church. Lord Jesus defined eternal life as this: "Now this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom You have sent." John 17:3 As an aside, those who are waiting until death to receive eternal life are going to be disappointed. Eternal life is "Now", not at the end of our days on earth.

It took me many years to realise that God wanted me to know Him. I was like a feral cat, mistrusting, independent, and suspicious. Even after I was born again, it took time to shed those wrong attitudes. Now I know God and I know that He wants everyone to know Him.

How do we get to know God better? It takes time. It takes communication. Moses spoke to God and God spoke to Moses. Everyone in Israel could have done the same. But they had the wrong kind of fear that held them back. God's promise is this:

"Draw near to God, and He will draw near to you." James 4:8

"Let us draw near with a sincere heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled to cleanse us from a guilty conscience and our bodies washed with pure water." Hebrews 10:22

Does it matter? Yes. We live in perilous times. "With flattery he will corrupt those who violate the covenant, but the people who know their God will firmly resist him." Daniel 11:32. While the literal Antichrist has yet to appear, the spirit of Antichrist abounds. Knowing God is they key to discernment and strength to resist.
​

Yes, we must know God. But the real question is: How does Scripture say we know Him?

Jesus answered this clearly.

And this is life eternal, that they should know thee the only true God, and him whom thou didst send, even Jesus Christ.(John 17:3, ASV)

But Jesus did not stop there. He showed that knowing Him is proven by obedience.

If ye love me, ye will keep my commandments. (John 14:15, ASV)

He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me. (John 14:21, ASV)

If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love. (John 15:10, ASV)

Jesus also warned that many people would call Him "Lord" and even do mighty works in His name, yet He would reject them because they practiced lawlessness.

And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity. (Matthew 7:23, ASV)

Notice the connection. They claimed to know Christ, but Christ said He never knew them because they did not obey God.

The disciple John taught the same truth:

And hereby we know that we know him, if we keep his commandments. He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. (1 John 2:3-4, ASV)

So yes, we should draw near to God, pray, and seek Him every day. But according to Jesus and His disciples, truly knowing God is not only about having knowledge or experiences. It is seen in a life of repentance, faith, obedience, and keeping His commandments. That is the evidence that we truly know Him.

 

[2Christ]

Love is one of the fruits of the Spirit and all of the 613 laws of the Torah are in regard to how to love, so the Spirit leading us to love is not leading us to do something that is not in accordance with the Torah.


I accept those passages, but not all interpretations of them. According to Deuteronomy 13, the way that God instructed to determine that someone is a false prophet is if they speak against obeying the Torah, so if you agree that Paul should be considered to be a servant of God, then you should be opposed to your interpretation of those passages and if you think that your interpretation of those passages is correct, then you should be arguing in favor of not accepting those passages.

the Problem is that WE CANNOT FOLLOW THE 613 or can we? many of these were fulfilled and will not be revisited, why do you insist? Do we still need priests to sacrifice animals ect...?

 

[Aussie52]

I do tire of legalists always bringing their pet doctrine of law keeping into just about every thread on this forum. Yes, we all have our favorite doctrines, but please, for the sake of peace and unity, please refrain from always pushing these things.
This thread is about knowing God, can we please continue that theme. Thanks.

 

[Aussie52]

In regard to 'knowing God', I have found A.W. Tozer's book, 'The Pursuit of God' very helpful. He has chapters on, 'Following hard after God', 'Apprehending God' and the 'Gaze of the soul'. If you have not read this classic, do yourself a favor and get it, you will be blessed.

 

[GWH]

Love is one of the fruits of the Spirit and all of the 613 laws of the Torah are in regard to how to love, so the Spirit leading us to love is not leading us to do something that is not in accordance with the Torah.

I accept those passages, but not all interpretations of them. According to Deuteronomy 13, the way that God instructed to determine that someone is a false prophet is if they speak against obeying the Torah, so if you agree that Paul should be considered to be a servant of God, then you should be opposed to your interpretation of those passages and if you think that your interpretation of those passages is correct, then you should be arguing in favor of not accepting those passages.

Yes, moral laws manifesting love may be found in the Torah, but salvation is via faith in Jesus as Lord, not via obeying OT moral laws, and most Torah laws are Levitical tradition/NOT moral and are superseded by the Gospel/HS per Heb. 7:11-10:10 and Gal. 4:21-31, which you reject--I assume because you are a Messianic Jew (although you have refused to answer that question) with Judaizing tendencies bordering on heresy per Galatians.

Anyway, I think we are looping so unless you have something new to add I will wish you happy trails!

 

[Gideon300]

Love is one of the fruits of the Spirit and all of the 613 laws of the Torah are in regard to how to love, so the Spirit leading us to love is not leading us to do something that is not in accordance with the Torah.


I accept those passages, but not all interpretations of them. According to Deuteronomy 13, the way that God instructed to determine that someone is a false prophet is if they speak against obeying the Torah, so if you agree that Paul should be considered to be a servant of God, then you should be opposed to your interpretation of those passages and if you think that your interpretation of those passages is correct, then you should be arguing in favor of not accepting those passages

All you've said is fine if you are Jew. This is a Christian forum. Don't be surprised if Christians reject your point of view. The New Testament rejects your theology.

"For through the law I died to the law so that I might live to God." Galatians 2:19. What laws apply to dead people?

But now, having died to what bound us, we have been released from the law, so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit, and not in the old way of the written code." Romans 7:6.

"All who rely on works of the law are under a curse. For it is written: “Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law.” Now it is clear that no one is justified before God by the law, because, “The righteous will live by faith.” The law, however, is not based on faith; on the contrary, “The man who does these things will live by them.” Galatians 3: 1-12

When you follow the law, you are not living by faith. That means that you are not pleasing God.

"Before this faith came, we were held in custody under the law, locked up until faith should be revealed. So the law became our guardian to lead us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith. Now that faith has come, we are no longer under a guardian." Galatians 3:23-25

The law does not save us and neither does it make us righteous. "Whoever keeps the whole law, but stumbles at just one point, is guilty of breaking all of it." James 2:10

"But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law." Galatians 5:18

"For all who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God." Romans 8:14

 

[2Christ]

In regard to 'knowing God', I have found A.W. Tozer's book, 'The Pursuit of God' very helpful. He has chapters on, 'Following hard after God', 'Apprehending God' and the 'Gaze of the soul'. If you have not read this classic, do yourself a favor and get it, you will be blessed.

ill check it out, thank you.

 

[Soyeong]

the Problem is that WE CANNOT FOLLOW THE 613 or can we? many of these were fulfilled and will not be revisited, why do you insist? Do we still need priests to sacrifice animals ect...?

There is not a single person who was required to follow all 613 and not even Jesus experienced obeying the laws in regard to giving birth or to having a period. In Deuteronomy 17:18, it specifically instructs the king to write a copy of the Torah, so everyone who is not the king has a legitimate reason for not following that law. The Israelites were given a number of laws that had the condition "when you enter the land..." while they were still wandering the wilderness for 40 years, so everyone who is outside of the land of Israel has a legitimate reason for not following those laws. The condition for the Israelites to return from exile in Babylon after the destruction of the 1st Temple was to first return to obedience to obedience to the Torah, which contains laws in regard to Temple practice that they could no longer obey, so when there are laws that can't be obeyed, then we should nevertheless be faithful to obey the laws that we can obey.

In Matthew 5:17-19, Jesus said that he came to fulfill the law in contrast with saying that he came not to abolish it and he warned against relaxing the least part of it, so Jesus fulfilling the law should not be interpreted as meaning the same thing as abolishing or relaxing parts of it. Rather, "to fulfill the law" means "to cause God's will (as made known by the law) to be obeyed as it should be" (NAS Greek Lexicon: pleroo), so Jesus procured to fulfill the law throughout the rest of Matthew 5 by correcting what the people had heard being said and by teaching how to correctly obey it at it was originally intended.

According to Galatian 5:14, anyone who has loved their neighbor has fulfilled the entire law, so it refers to something that countless people have done and should continue to do in perpetuity, not to something unique that Jesus did to cause us to no longer need to revise the command to love our neighbor. In Galatians 6:2, bearing one another's burdens fulfills the Law of Christ, yet you do not consistently interpret that as meaning that we no longer need to revisit the Law of Christ.

 

[Soyeong]

All you've said is fine if you are Jew. This is a Christian forum. Don't be surprised if Christians reject your point of view. The New Testament rejects your theology.

Christ spent his ministry teaching his followers to obey the Torah by word and by example and what is sadly not surprising is how strongly Christians are opposed to following what Christ taught.

"For through the law I died to the law so that I might live to God." Galatians 2:19. What laws apply to dead people?

The way to live for God is not by dying to His instructions for how to live for Him but by dying to a law that was hindering us from obeying those instructions, namely the law of sin.

But now, having died to what bound us, we have been released from the law, so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit, and not in the old way of the written code." Romans 7:6.

In Romans 7:22-23, Paul said that he delighted in obeying the Law of God in contrast with saying that the law of sin held him captive, and Romans 7:6 says that we have been released from a law that held us captive, so it is referring to the law of sin, not to Paul being released from what he delighted in doing.

"All who rely on works of the law are under a curse. For it is written: “Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law.” Now it is clear that no one is justified before God by the law, because, “The righteous will live by faith.” The law, however, is not based on faith; on the contrary, “The man who does these things will live by them.” Galatians 3: 1-12

The fact that cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything in the Book of the Law straightforwardly means that we should continue to do everything in the Book of the Law, which is why everyone who relies in "works of the law" instead come under that curse. Paul associated a quote from Habakuk 2:4 that the righteous shall live by faith with a quote form Leviticus 18:5 that the one who obeys the Torah shall live by it, so the righteous who are living by faith are the same as those who are living in obedience to the Torah. The position that God we should not rely on God's instructions is also the position hat we should not rely on God.

When you follow the law, you are not living by faith. That means that you are not pleasing God.

It is absurd to think that the way to be please to God is by refusing to obey His instructions.

"Before this faith came, we were held in custody under the law, locked up until faith should be revealed. So the law became our guardian to lead us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith. Now that faith has come, we are no longer under a guardian." Galatians 3:23-25

God's Word leads us to God's Word made flesh because he is the embodiment of it and it was given in order to teach us how to know him through following his example of embodying it, but it does not lead us to him so that we can then reject all that he is and go back to being doers of what it reveals to be wickedness.

The law does not save us and neither does it make us righteous. "Whoever keeps the whole law, but stumbles at just one point, is guilty of breaking all of it." James 2:10

James was speaking to people who had sinned by showing favoritism and was encouraging them to repent and obey the law more consistently. We can't earn our salvation or righteousness even as the result of having perfect obedience to the Torah, but our gift of salvation and righteousness does require us to be doers of the Torah in order to experience it.

"But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law." Galatians 5:18

In Romans 8:2-7, Paul said that the Law of the Spirit has freed us from the law of sin and death and he contrasted those who walk in the Spirit with those who have minds set on the flesh who are enemies of God who refuse to submit to the Torah, so that should inform which law Galatians 5:18 is referring to us as not being under when we are led by the Spirit. The Torah was given by God and the Spirit is God, so it would be contradictory to interpret Galatians 5:18 as referring the Torah as if we are not led by God when we are led by God.

"For all who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God." Romans 8:14

In 1 John 3:10, those who are not doers of righteous works in obedience to the Torah are not sons of God.

 

[Soyeong]

I do tire of legalists always bringing their pet doctrine of law keeping into just about every thread on this forum. Yes, we all have our favorite doctrines, but please, for the sake of peace and unity, please refrain from always pushing these things.
This thread is about knowing God, can we please continue that theme. Thanks.

If God is a legalist for graciously giving us His law and Jesus is a legalist for spending his ministry graciously teaching us to obey it by word and by example, then we should all be legalists, but that is not what I think that it means. The Bible teaches that the way to know God is by obeying the Torah (Exodus 33:13), so I am not inserting a favorite doctrine, but rather it is directly related to the topic of this thread.

 

[Soyeong]

Yes, moral laws manifesting love may be found in the Torah, but salvation is via faith in Jesus as Lord, not via obeying OT moral laws, and most Torah laws are Levitical tradition/NOT moral and are superseded by the Gospel/HS per Heb. 7:11-10:10 and Gal. 4:21-31, which you reject--I assume because you are a Messianic Jew (although you have refused to answer that question) with Judaizing tendencies bordering on heresy per Galatians.

Anyway, I think we are looping so unless you have something new to add I will wish you happy trails!

Morality is base on God's character traits and the Torah was given in order to teach us how to embody God's character traits, so all of the 613 laws are inherently moral laws.

In Psalm 19:29-30, he waned to put false ways far from him, for God to be gracious to him by teaching him to obey the Torah, and he chose the way of faith by setting it before him, so this has always been the one and only way of salvation by grace through faith in Christ alone.

I do not reject Hebrews 7-11-10:10 or Galatians 4:21-23, but rather you are the one who reject them.

The problem that Paul had in Galatians with the Judaizers was not that they were teaching Gentiles how to follow Christ's example of obedience to the Torah but that they were wanting to require Gentiles to becoming circumcised in order to become justified, and I completely agree with Pauls' opposition to them.

If what I'm saying it repetitive, then it is because you are deliberately ignoring what I've said.

 

[biblestudent78]

God showed His ways to Moses, and His acts to Israel (psalm 103:7). For Moses, it was not enough to see God's acts. Moses had seen God's power in miraculous ways. Even the fact that he survived a face to face meeting with Pharaoh is amazing. Why did Pharaoh not have Moses killed immediately?

After 10 terrible plagues, Moses led Israel out of Egypt and into the wilderness. Israel took Egypt's wealth and livestock. Egypt's army was destroyed in the Red Sea. Israel was protected by God's mighty power. Yet still the people complained.

Moses soon realised that he was unable to lead the nation freed from slavery. He knew God already, speaking with God in the tent of meeting. So he did the only sensible thing. He sought God for more. His experience to that time was not enough. So he asked God to reveal His ways.

God graciously obliged. You can read this in Exodus 33 & 34.

Many believers have only book knowledge of God. It is not enough, especially in this age of confusion, doubt, unbelief and increasing hostility to the true church. Lord Jesus defined eternal life as this: "Now this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom You have sent." John 17:3 As an aside, those who are waiting until death to receive eternal life are going to be disappointed. Eternal life is "Now", not at the end of our days on earth.

It took me many years to realise that God wanted me to know Him. I was like a feral cat, mistrusting, independent, and suspicious. Even after I was born again, it took time to shed those wrong attitudes. Now I know God and I know that He wants everyone to know Him.

How do we get to know God better? It takes time. It takes communication. Moses spoke to God and God spoke to Moses. Everyone in Israel could have done the same. But they had the wrong kind of fear that held them back. God's promise is this:

"Draw near to God, and He will draw near to you." James 4:8

"Let us draw near with a sincere heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled to cleanse us from a guilty conscience and our bodies washed with pure water." Hebrews 10:22

Does it matter? Yes. We live in perilous times. "With flattery he will corrupt those who violate the covenant, but the people who know their God will firmly resist him." Daniel 11:32. While the literal Antichrist has yet to appear, the spirit of Antichrist abounds. Knowing God is they key to discernment and strength to resist.
​

The anti-Christ is here. He is telling you that Christianity is only about what you believe thus creating a Christian war of over 2000 years. He tells you our dogmas, creeds, catechisms, and proof text knowledge will save you. The bad new is that Christianity has always been more about what you become than what dogmas invented by ancients who you don't even know that you intellectually and occasionally accept via emotion. The Anti-Christ always uses convenience, comfort and self-centered prosperity to subvert. The two things least preached about in the last 100 years is: You can not love money and love God and you can't love God if you don't love your neighbor defined as anyone who needs you while you are looking for someone. The most un-preached chapter in the entire bible is Matthew 25. The anti-Christ is winning. Christians are at war with each other, hate each other, condemn each other because our ancient creeds, statements of faith, unique dogmas and self-centeredness gives us the "right." What could be more satanic then that. We now love our money, comfort and convenience but are eager to condemn those other so called Christians.

 

[2Christ]

There is not a single person who was required to follow all 613 and not even Jesus experienced obeying the laws in regard to giving birth or to having a period. In Deuteronomy 17:18, it specifically instructs the king to write a copy of the Torah, so everyone who is not the king has a legitimate reason for not following that law. The Israelites were given a number of laws that had the condition "when you enter the land..." while they were still wandering the wilderness for 40 years, so everyone who is outside of the land of Israel has a legitimate reason for not following those laws. The condition for the Israelites to return from exile in Babylon after the destruction of the 1st Temple was to first return to obedience to obedience to the Torah, which contains laws in regard to Temple practice that they could no longer obey, so when there are laws that can't be obeyed, then we should nevertheless be faithful to obey the laws that we can obey.

In Matthew 5:17-19, Jesus said that he came to fulfill the law in contrast with saying that he came not to abolish it and he warned against relaxing the least part of it, so Jesus fulfilling the law should not be interpreted as meaning the same thing as abolishing or relaxing parts of it. Rather, "to fulfill the law" means "to cause God's will (as made known by the law) to be obeyed as it should be" (NAS Greek Lexicon: pleroo), so Jesus procured to fulfill the law throughout the rest of Matthew 5 by correcting what the people had heard being said and by teaching how to correctly obey it at it was originally intended.

According to Galatian 5:14, anyone who has loved their neighbor has fulfilled the entire law, so it refers to something that countless people have done and should continue to do in perpetuity, not to something unique that Jesus did to cause us to no longer need to revise the command to love our neighbor. In Galatians 6:2, bearing one another's burdens fulfills the Law of Christ, yet you do not consistently interpret that as meaning that we no longer need to revisit the Law of Christ.

Youre very funnyyyyyy,

And you deflect, of course Christ did not have to follow the laws about giving birth or what to do for period, but you wrote the 613, it means women have to follow them all according to your reasoning as far as I know, 50% of people on earth are Women, your argument is moot find something else. what was said for gentiles its in acts, and the gospels, I know God does not expect we gentiles follow the 613, many are no longer necessary but you wont listen too bad.

 

[GWH]

Morality is base on God's character traits and the Torah was given in order to teach us how to embody God's character traits, so all of the 613 laws are inherently moral laws.

In Psalm 19:29-30, he waned to put false ways far from him, for God to be gracious to him by teaching him to obey the Torah, and he chose the way of faith by setting it before him, so this has always been the one and only way of salvation by grace through faith in Christ alone.

I do not reject Hebrews 7-11-10:10 or Galatians 4:21-23, but rather you are the one who reject them.

The problem that Paul had in Galatians with the Judaizers was not that they were teaching Gentiles how to follow Christ's example of obedience to the Torah but that they were wanting to require Gentiles to becoming circumcised in order to become justified, and I completely agree with Pauls' opposition to them.

If what I'm saying it repetitive, then it is because you are deliberately ignoring what I've said.

Yes, morality manifests God's loving nature, and the new moral commandment of love was revealed by Jesus in John 13:34-35.

The Law was given in order to lead sinners to saving faith in Jesus as Messiah and the Lord incarnate (Rom. 3:20, Gal. 3:24).

The astute reader can discern which of us affirms and rejects Heb. 7:11-10:10 and Gal. 3&4. Jer. 31:31-34 predicts the coming new covenant (NT), which will differ from the OC by GW indwelling the hearts of God's people, who thereby will know/experience the Lord's HS. That the NC will therefore supersede the OC which foreshadowed it is the subject of Heb. 7:11-10:10.

Not only do your reject the NC, you also reject Messianic prophecy of the end of the OC, I assume because you are a Judaizer.

 

[2ndTimeIsTheCharm]

Youre very funnyyyyyy,

And you deflect, of course Christ did not have to follow the laws about giving birth or what to do for period, but you wrote the 613, it means women have to follow them all according to your reasoning as far as I know, 50% of people on earth are Women, your argument is moot find something else. what was said for gentiles its in acts, and the gospels, I know God does not expect we gentiles follow the 613, many are no longer necessary but you wont listen too bad.

It's just so strange. They act like God doesn't see that what they believe doesn't line up with His ways and they will not face consequences for it.

 

[Soyeong]

Youre very funnyyyyyy,

And you deflect, of course Christ did not have to follow the laws about giving birth or what to do for period, but you wrote the 613, it means women have to follow them all according to your reasoning as far as I know, 50% of people on earth are Women, your argument is moot find something else. what was said for gentiles its in acts, and the gospels, I know God does not expect we gentiles follow the 613, many are no longer necessary but you wont listen too bad.

You've misunderstand me, I did not claim that a single person is required to obey all 613 laws. Some laws were only given to govern the conduct of the king, the High Priest, priests, men, women, children, those who are married, those who are widows, those who have servants, those who have animals, those who have crops, those who have tzaraat, those who are living in the land, and those who are strangers living among them while others were given to everyone. This does not change the issue of whether not followers of Christ are required to follow his example of obedience to the Law of Moses.

There is a huge difference between the position that the law for a king to write a copy of the Torah can't currently be obeyed because there is no king of Israel and the position that it should no longer be obeyed because it is no longer necessary. All of God's righteous laws are eternal (Psalm 119:160), so they all continue to exist regardless of whether or not they can currently be obeyed and if there are laws that we can't currently obey, then we should obey them when we are able to do so. The only way that it would cease to be necessary to follow God's righteous laws would be if God were to cease to be righteous.

 

[Soyeong]

Yes, morality manifests God's loving nature, and the new moral commandment of love was revealed by Jesus in John 13:34-35.

All of the 613 laws of the Torah manifest God's loving nature. The command to love our neighbor can be found in Leviticus 19:18, so there is nothing brand new about that command, but what is new about it is the example by which we are to love our neighbor. Indeed, the Greek word use refers to newness with respect to quality rater than with respect to time:

3501 /néos ("new on the scene") suggests something "new in time" – in contrast to its near-synonym (2537 /kainós, "new in quality").

In order to correctly know how to obey the command to love our neighbors as ourselves we need to know how we should love ourselves and the answer to that is that we should love ourselves as Jesus loves us, which is therefore also how we should love our neighbor. So Jesus was not sinning in violation of Deuteronomy 4:2 by adding a brand new law, but rather he was fulfilling it by teaching us how to correct obey it. Jesus summarized the Torah as being about how to love God and our neighbor, so that is how he expressed his love for us and is also the way that we are to express our love.

The Law was given in order to lead sinners to saving faith in Jesus as Messiah and the Lord incarnate (Rom. 3:20, Gal. 3:24).

Indeed, the Torah was given in order to teach how to have saving faith in Jesus as the Messiah. If you agree that it is by the Torah that we have knowledge of what sin is and that we should refrain from doing what God has revealed to be sin, then you should be arguing in favor of obeying the Torah.

The astute reader can discern which of us affirms and rejects Heb. 7:11-10:10 and Gal. 3&4. Jer. 31:31-34 predicts the coming new covenant (NT), which will differ from the OC by GW indwelling the hearts of God's people, who thereby will know/experience the Lord's HS. That the NC will therefore supersede the OC which foreshadowed it is the subject of Heb. 7:11-10:10.

An astute reader can recognize that multiple people can interpret a verse in different ways while all affirming the truth of that verse. An astute reader can also recognize that if someone thinks that a verse should be interpreted in a way that is in violation of Deuteronomy 13, then they are taking the position that that the truth of that verse should be rejected.

The New Covenant involves God putting the Torah in our minds and writing it on our hearts, so the way that the New Covenant is not like the Mosaic Covenant is not in regard to whether the Torah should be obeyed. The Spirit leading us to know God through obeying the Torah is in accordance with the Torah, not superseding it.

Not only do your reject the NC, you also reject Messianic prophecy of the end of the OC, I assume because you are a Judaizer.

An astute reader can recognize that I can reject your misunderstanding of the NC and Messianic prophecy without rejecting the NC or Messianic prophecy. I do not take the position that Gentiles are required to become circumcised in order to become saved, so I am not a Judaizer.

 

[2Christ]

You've misunderstand me, I did not claim that a single person is required to obey all 613 laws. Some laws were only given to govern the conduct of the king, the High Priest, priests, men, women, children, those who are married, those who are widows, those who have servants, those who have animals, those who have crops, those who have tzaraat, those who are living in the land, and those who are strangers living among them while others were given to everyone. This does not change the issue of whether not followers of Christ are required to follow his example of obedience to the Law of Moses.

There is a huge difference between the position that the law for a king to write a copy of the Torah can't currently be obeyed because there is no king of Israel and the position that it should no longer be obeyed because it is no longer necessary. All of God's righteous laws are eternal (Psalm 119:160), so they all continue to exist regardless of whether or not they can currently be obeyed and if there are laws that we can't currently obey, then we should obey them when we are able to do so. The only way that it would cease to be necessary to follow God's righteous laws would be if God were to cease to be righteous.

Soyeong why do you keep using 613 in so many of your posts?

When Jesus is back in the Kingdom of Heaven that he will build on earth, that is the millennial Kingdom ( that is coming this generation!) will he reinstate these 613? its a serious question and requires an answer based on scrioture. I would like to see an answer from you based on scripture only if possible and I mean written.

thank you

 

[2Christ]

It's just so strange. They act like God doesn't see that what they believe doesn't line up with His ways and they will not face consequences for it.

true, Most of the 623 laws were for a specific time and were added because the israelites disobeyed God constantly and had idols of their false Gods that they worshipped constantly and for other reasons. most cannot be kept today nor will be kept later, many served their purpose. Jesus told us what to do exactly we need not add anything else. When his Kingdom comes and it will be this generation, if we need more details or laes to follow he will tell us then and bring us up to speed then.

@Soyeong

 

[Soyeong]

Soyeong why do you keep using 613 in so many of your posts?

Some people are trying to say that only some of God's laws are moral, so I refer to 613 of them to emphasize that all of them are moral.

When Jesus is back in the Kingdom of Heaven that he will build on earth, that is the millennial Kingdom ( that is coming this generation!) will he reinstate these 613? its a serious question and requires an answer based on scrioture. I would like to see an answer from you based on scripture only if possible and I mean written.

thank you

In Matthew 4:15-23, Jesus began his ministry with the Gospel message to repent for the Kingdom of God is at hand, which was a light to the Gentiles, the 613 laws of the Torah were how his audience knew what sin is (Romans 3:20), so repenting from our disobedience to them is a central part of the Gospel of the Kingdom/Grace, which Paul also taught based on the Torah (Acts 14:21-22, 20:24-25, 28:23). All of God's righteous laws are eternal (Psalm 119:160), so all of them have always been in effect and none of them will need to be reinstated.

true, Most of the 623 laws were for a specific time and were added because the israelites disobeyed God constantly and had idols of their false Gods that they worshipped constantly and for other reasons. most cannot be kept today nor will be kept later, many served their purpose. Jesus told us what to do exactly we need not add anything else. When his Kingdom comes and it will be this generation, if we need more details or laes to follow he will tell us then and bring us up to speed then.

@Soyeong

Do you believe in the existence of the God who has the character traits that the Torah was given in order to teach how to embody? Jesus said that man shall not live by bread alone but by every word that comes from the mouth of God (Matthew 4:4).