Knowing God.

[Soyeong]

Okay, this is a lot of back and forth, and I seem to get the gist between you @GWH and @Soyeong and I think I see the fundamental misunderstanding. So let me start off by saying, what Soyeong says is correct (although I disagree with some minute details, but the gist is correct). So let me explain and I'll do my best to be thorough and maybe I can resolve this misunderstanding.

Hello, it is nice to meet you.

Back in the day around the time of Jesus, Jews believed that following all the law is what saved you. Meaning, if you are perfect in the law, that is what mattered.

Jesus saves us from our sin (Matthew 1:21) and it is by the Torah that we have knowledge of what sin is (Romans 3:20), so while we can't earn our salvation even as the result of having perfect obedience to the Torah, there is nevertheless an intrinsic connection between our gift of salvation and our gift of getting to experience being a doer of the Torah. Jesus graciously teaching us to experience being a doer of the Torah is intrinsically the way that he is giving us his gift of saving us from not being a doer of it.

In Psalm 119:29-30, he wanted to put false ways far from him, for God to be gracious to him by teaching him to obey the Torah, and he chose the way of faith by setting it before him, so this has always been the one and only way of salvation by grace through faith in Christ alone. In Titus 2:11-13, the content of our gift of salvation is described as being trained by grace to do what is godly, righteous, and good, and to renounce doing what is ungodly, so we are not extrinsically required to have first done those works in order to earn our salvation as the result and we are not extrinsically required to do those works as the result of having first been said, but rather we are intrinsically required to be a doer of those works because God graciously teaching us to experience being a doer of them is part of the content of His gift of salvation.

The Law defined what God considered righteous. It's like a mirror to show us really how dirty we are in comparison to the standard that God set. So to simplify:

Following the Law = Righteousness
Breaking the Law = Sin

When Christ entered the picture, the understanding of salvation went back to Abraham's time, who declared: "He (Abraham) believed in Adonai, and he credited it to him as righteousness." Which was always the basis for salvation. Salvation has always been through belief. When Jesus came, he said he came to save the Jews who walked away from that belief and relied on their own righteousness to follow the Torah/Law. But it's always been grace. (There's more nuance to this but I'm trying to not make it convoluted.)

The issue of the way to acquire righteousness is different than the issue of what it means to be righteous. The only way to become righteous is through faith apart from being required to have first done enough righteous works in order to earn it as the result, but what it means to be righteous is to be a doer of righteous works in obedience to the Torah (1 John 3:4-7, Isaiah 51:7). We can't earn our righteousness even as the result of having perfect obedience to the Torah (Romans 4:1-5), but being a doer of the Torah is what we get to experience by being given the gift of righteousness through faith. Paul also affirmed in Romans 2:13 that only the doers of the Torah will be declared righteous, so there is a reason why our righteousness requires us to choose to be doers of the Torah other than in order to earn it as the result, namely faith insofar as the faith by which we are declared righteous apart from works also upholds the Torah (Roman 3:28-31).

While it is true that Abraham was declared righteous because he believed God (Genesis 15:6), it is also true that he was a doer of righteous works because he believed God (Genesis 18:19) and that he offered Isaac because he believed God (Hebrews 11:17), so the faith by which he was declared righteous was also embodied through his works, but he did not earn his righteousness as the result of his works. In James 2:21-24, Abraham was declared righteous by his works when he offered Isaac, his faith was active along with his works, and his faith completed his works, so he was declared righteous by his works insofar as they embodied his faith but not insofar as they were earning it as a wage.

To believe in God is to have the goal of growing to be in His image through embodying His character traits. Similarly, the Son is the radiance of God's glory and the exact likeness of His character (Hebrews 1:3), which he embodied through his works by setting a sinless example for us to follow of how to walk in obedience to the Torah, so to believe in Christ is to make it our goal to be more like him. For example, the way to believe that God is compassionate is by being compassionate (Luke 6:36), the way to believe that God is holy is by being a doer of His instructions for how to be holy as He is holy (1 Peter 1:16), and so forth, so we embody what we believe to be true about God through our works (James 2:18) and it is by this faith alone apart from works done in order to earn them as the result that we acquire righteousness and the other character traits of God. This is also why the Bible frequently connects our belief in God with our obedience to Him, such as with Revelation 14:12, where those who kept faith in Jesus are the same as those who kept God's commandments.

Now, let's get more nuanced because I think this is where the fundamental misunderstanding is. When it comes to the law, we are still expected to follow it. God's grace is never a license to sin, or to disregard God's righteous rules. It's literally impossible to follow them all, but God still expects you to try. Because either you are a slave to righteousness (the law) or a slave to sin (lawlessness). You cannot serve 2 masters. That does not mean the law gets you to heaven, it just means God's expectations is that ALL His children are still, to the best of their ability, supposed to follow the law.

In Matthew 7:21-23, Jesus said that only those who do the will of the Father will enter the Kingdom of Heaven in contrast with saying that he would tell those who are workers of lawlessness to depart from him because he never knew them, so the reason why our entrance into the Kingdom of Heaven requires us to do the will of the Father by being workers of lawfulness in not in order to be good enough to earn our way there as the result, but because that is the way to know Jesus through embodying His character traits.

 

[Delvianna]

It looks like you are merely impersonating a Messianic Jew, so never mind about being an answer to prayer.

Definition per Google:

A Messianic Jew is a person of Jewish ethnicity who believes that Jesus (referred to by his Hebrew name, Yeshua) is the promised Jewish Messiah. This movement combines distinct Christian theological beliefs with traditional Jewish cultural and religious practices.

Core Beliefs
Jesus as Messiah: Believing that Jesus is the divine Son of God and the Savior who died for human sins.
Jewish Identity: Maintaining that following Jesus does not erase a person's Jewish heritage, but rather fulfills it.
Scripture: Accepting both the Hebrew Bible (Tanakh) and the New Testament as holy and inspired text.

Practices and Lifestyle
Shabbat and Holidays: Celebrating the Saturday Sabbath and biblical Jewish holidays like Passover and Rosh Hashanah.
Traditions: Using traditional items like prayer shawls (tallit) and head coverings (yarmulke), alongside services held in Messianic synagogues.
Dietary and Cultural Customs: Observing kosher laws or other cultural markers to varying degrees depending on the individual congregation

Perspectives from Other Faiths
Mainstream Judaism: Views Messianic Judaism as a form of Christianity rather than Judaism. Mainstream Jewish authorities state that accepting Jesus as the Messiah and a divine figure is fundamentally incompatible with traditional Jewish thought.
Christianity: Scholars and major Christian denominations generally classify Messianic Judaism as a Protestant or evangelical Christian sect due to its core belief in the divinity of Jesus and the Trinity, though with a distinct Jewish cultural expression.

I knew a Messianic Jewish pastor and worshipped with his congregation,
who did not seem to elevate the Torah to be equal with the New Testament Gospel,
so you and Soy seem to be impostors IMO.

Thus, perhaps I will try to contact @BenAvraham, who seems genuine,
so if he agrees with your Torahism, I will be surprised.
Happy trails!

Funny that you call me an impersonator when by everything you just listed, I do. Thank you for giving the accurate definition. Maybe you should re-read what you just wrote before accusing someone of not being something according to your personal made up definition which is inaccurate. The irony is hilarious.

 

[Soyeong]

(@Soyeong ) ,

I want to start off by fixing this which is the word for "know" (yada) as a means of gaining it via experience. That's kind of half true but really the context behind yada is knowing someone so intimately that you understand them at the deepest level. It's why that word is linked to marriage and its the same word that is used to "know" God. We are supposed to have that same deep knowing of God since we are likened to be His spouse. And as you rightly put, the Torah is a means to help us know/understand God.

I did say that it refers to an intimate relationship, but agree that intimately understanding them on the deepest level is a fuller way to put it. The Bible often refers to the Mosaic Covenant in terms of being a marriage between God and Israel, such as with God being her husband (Jeremiah 31:31), so the point of the Torah is to teach us how to have that kind of relationship with God.

There is a difference between God's law and the ceremonial law (Levitical). The destruction of the 1st temple had to do with rejection to God, same with the 2nd temple as they were worshiping other Gods IN God's temple. Levitical law was separate from God's laws. God's laws are still expected to be done, but Levitical law was sectional and only under certain conditions. Like, having a temple and concerning the tribe of Levi which required them to be the descendants of Aaron.

In Deuteronomy 5:31-33, Mosaic wrote down everything that God commanded him without departing from it, which is why the Law of Moses is called the Law of God in verses like Nehemiah 8:1-8, Ezra 7:6-12, and Luke 2:22-23. The Levitical laws were given by God, so I don't see justification for excluding them from being part of the Law of God.

I will say though that there is God's laws and then there's Jewish interpretation of God's laws which aren't the same thing, which is why Jesus broke humans laws that added/defined God's laws like you can't shuck corn to eat. Or not starting a fire meant you can't cook meat to eat. But that doesn't mean Jesus was a sinner or broke God's laws.

In Deuteronomy 17:8-13, it gives authority to priests and judges to making rulings about how to correctly obey the Torah that the community was obligated to obey. This means that God partnered with Israel about the meaning of the Torah. If priests and judges went through the methods of interpretation and made a ruling aobuu how to obey the Torah was not what God intended, then the community was still obligated by God to abide by the ruling and did not have the freedom to decide that the ruling was wrong and do their own thing. In Matthew 23:1-4, Jesus recognized that the scribes and Pharisees had this authority by saying that they sit in the Seat of Moses and by instructing his followers to do and observe all that they said. If Jesus had been interpreted in debating halakhah, then he could have quoted Rabbi Yehuda as saying that we are permitted to crush grains of wheat with our hands on the Sabbath for our own consumption as long we don't use a tool. The problem with creating a fire on the Sabbath is not in regard to what we might do with it but with the fact that it is creating something. I agree that Jesus never broke God's laws.

For the most part I agree with your arguments and see what you're saying in general, not gonna nit-pick your responses but just wanted to comment on those things. And you're correct that some laws were for specific people like women, kings, men, diseased people etc, so it was conditional. So essentially you follow what applies.

Thanks for the input.

 

[Delvianna]

Hello, it is nice to meet you.

Hi there Nice to meet you too!

Jesus saves us from our sin (Matthew 1:21) and it is by the Torah that we have knowledge of what sin is (Romans 3:20), so while we can't earn our salvation even as the result of having perfect obedience to the Torah, there is nevertheless an intrinsic connection between our gift of salvation and our gift of getting to experience being a doer of the Torah. Jesus graciously teaching us to experience being a doer of the Torah is intrinsically the way that he is giving us his gift of saving us from not being a doer of it.

In Psalm 119:29-30, he wanted to put false ways far from him, for God to be gracious to him by teaching him to obey the Torah, and he chose the way of faith by setting it before him, so this has always been the one and only way of salvation by grace through faith in Christ alone. In Titus 2:11-13, the content of our gift of salvation is described as being trained by grace to do what is godly, righteous, and good, and to renounce doing what is ungodly, so we are not extrinsically required to have first done those works in order to earn our salvation as the result and we are not extrinsically required to do those works as the result of having first been said, but rather we are intrinsically required to be a doer of those works because God graciously teaching us to experience being a doer of them is part of the content of His gift of salvation.

While I disagree with how you got there, the end result is what matters which you are correct on.

About righteousness, faith isn't the only way of righteousness as following the law is righteousness (Deut 6:25, Ezekiel 18:5-9) So faith is counted as righteousness but so is following the law. But what actually saves you is grace. Because unless you are perfect from start to finish, you still need grace in order to be reconciled to God.

In Matthew 7:21-23, Jesus said that only those who do the will of the Father will enter the Kingdom of Heaven in contrast with saying that he would tell those who are workers of lawlessness to depart from him because he never knew them, so the reason why our entrance into the Kingdom of Heaven requires us to do the will of the Father by being workers of lawfulness in not in order to be good enough to earn our way there as the result, but because that is the way to know Jesus through embodying His character traits.

Agreed.

In Deuteronomy 5:31-33, Mosaic wrote down everything that God commanded him without departing from it, which is why the Law of Moses is called the Law of God in verses like Nehemiah 8:1-8, Ezra 7:6-12, and Luke 2:22-23. The Levitical laws were given by God, so I don't see justification for excluding them from being part of the Law of God.

I wanted to make that distinction because there is zero way we could still follow the levitical laws. So when people talk about "the law", I like to draw a distinction because for us in this time period, there is zero way we are able to continue with levitical law. To include them makes it convoluted, but not that God didn't give them the levitical law. Does that make sense?

In Deuteronomy 17:8-13, it gives authority to priests and judges to making rulings about how to correctly obey the Torah that the community was obligated to obey. This means that God partnered with Israel about the meaning of the Torah. If priests and judges went through the methods of interpretation and made a ruling aobuu how to obey the Torah was not what God intended, then the community was still obligated by God to abide by the ruling and did not have the freedom to decide that the ruling was wrong and do their own thing. In Matthew 23:1-4, Jesus recognized that the scribes and Pharisees had this authority by saying that they sit in the Seat of Moses and by instructing his followers to do and observe all that they said. If Jesus had been interpreted in debating halakhah, then he could have quoted Rabbi Yehuda as saying that we are permitted to crush grains of wheat with our hands on the Sabbath for our own consumption as long we don't use a tool. The problem with creating a fire on the Sabbath is not in regard to what we might do with it but with the fact that it is creating something. I agree that Jesus never broke God's laws.

I agree that its not what God intended, and yet... man is still man and we have to screw everything up. That's why Jesus corrected the leadership a lot of time because they misunderstood the point/purpose. Since God said to not make fire on the sabbath, if you don't eat meat and make a fire to roast meat, you are following the law. But is that extent necessary? That's what I'm saying. The added caveats that was created just bloated the law to insane levels that missed the point of what God was saying in the first place. Like somehow healing people on the sabbath was breaking the law. They took "work" to ridiculous levels.

Thanks for the input.

Anytime

 

[Soyeong]

The Pharisees followed the Torah as perfectly as possible,
and Jesus condemned them for being the spawn of Satan (Matt. 23, John 8:42-44).

Jesus criticized Pharisees precisely because they weren't following the Torah as perfectly as possible. For example, in Matthew 23:23, Jesus said that tithing dill, mint, and cumin was something that they ought to be doing while not neglecting weightier matters of the Torah of justice, mercy, and faithfulness, so he was calling them to have a higher level of Torah observance.

Well, I agreed with you through "it's always been grace", but when you got nuanced I think you sounded more Jewish than Messianic by saying "When it comes to the law, we are still expected to follow it." Where does the NT say we must obey the Torah to be saved?
I know where the NT says Christians/Messianic Jews will cooperate with the Lord's Holy Spirit, such as in Eph. 2:8-10 and Gal. 5:22-23.

Jesus graciously teaching us to experience being a doer of the Torah is intrinsically part of the concept of him saving us from not being a doer of it. It is contradictory for someone to who thinks that they have no obligation to refrain from not being a doer of the Torah to think that they need salvation.

Yes, the Spirit's love and the Torah's command may sometimes coincide regarding morality,
but that has to do with living AFTER being saved by grace through faith in Jesus as Messiah and the Lord incarnate, does it not?

The Spirit's love nd the Torah's commands always coincide with morality. In Titus 2:11-13, it does say that we will do those works after have first been saved, but rather it describes the content of our gift of salvation as being trained by grace to be a doer of those works.

Okay, you have addressed a post to me, so now please address one to Soyeong, because if you think Soy's Torahism is correct,
you are NOT my answer to prayer. You might begin by referencing what I said in post #20 and you have my blessing to cite anything
else I said, because I want to learn how a Messianic Jew would respond/witness differently/better than I did. Here is my #20:

You appear to be a Judaizer, but we hope you will become a Christian.
You are correct that the Gospel does not teach cheap grace,
but salvation is via faith/cooperating with the indwelling Holy Spirit,
which means obeying the Torah has been superseded by divine love.

Thanks for joining our discussion. Hopefully, your help will keep it progressing rather than looping.

You do not know more about what it means to be a Messianic Jew than Messianic Jews. if teaching to obey the Torah makes someone a Judaizer, then Jesus and Paul were Judaizers.

 

[GWH]

Funny that you call me an impersonator when by everything you just listed, I do. Thank you for giving the accurate definition. Maybe you should re-read what you just wrote before accusing someone of not being something according to your personal made up definition which is inaccurate. The irony is hilarious.

Funny that you call the Google definition something I made up.
Ironic that you can claim it as you, when it does not say to obey the Torah in order to be saved.
Maybe you should re-explain what you believe about God's requirement for salvation.

Perhaps it would help for you to compare yours with my understanding of the NT's:

The normative way of stating the kerygma/GRFS in the NT is “Accept Christ Jesus as Lord” (as in Acts 16:31, 2Cor. 4:5 & Col. 2:6) or “Love Jesus as Messiah and Lord” (John 8:42). The main points of Christian orthodoxy implicit in these statements can be explained or elaborated as follows:

1. There is a/one all-loving and just Lord or God (Deut. 6:4, John 3:16, 2Thes. 1:6), who is both able (2Tim. 1:12) and willing (1Tim. 2:3-4, Ezek. 33:11) to provide all morally accountable human beings salvation or heaven—a wonderful life full of love, joy and peace forever.

2. Human beings are selfish or sinful (Rom. 3:23, 2Tim. 3:2-4, Col. 3:5), miserable (Gal. 5:19-21), and hopeless (Eph. 2:12) or hell-bound at the judgment (Matt. 23:33 & 25:46) when they reject God’s salvation (John 3:18, Rom. 2:5-11).

3. Jesus is God’s Messiah/Christ and incarnate Son, the way that God has chosen (John 3:16, Acts 16:30-31, Phil. 2:9-11) of providing salvation by means of his atoning death on the cross for the payment of the penalty for the sins of humanity (Rom. 3:22-25 & 5:9-11), followed by his resurrection to reign in heaven (1Cor. 15:14-28).

4. Thus, every person who hears the NT Gospel needs to repent and accept God’s justification in Jesus as Christ/Messiah the Lord or Supreme Commander (Luke 2:11, John 14:6, Acts 16:31), which means trying to obey (Phil. 3:12, 1John 1:8) His commandment to love one another (Matt. 22:37-40, John 13:35, Rom. 13:9)—forever (Matt. 10:22, Psa. 113:2).

5. Then God’s Holy Spirit will establish a saving relationship with those who freely accept Him (Rev. 3:20) that will eventually achieve heaven when by means of persevering in learning Truth/God’s Word/sanctification everyone cooperates fully with His will (John 14:6, 17&26, Rom. 8:6-17, Gal. 6:7-9, Eph. 1:13-14, Heb. 10:36, 12:1, Jam. 1:2-4). Such cooperation can be termed “the surrendered life”.

6. This creed summarizes revelation of the NT Gospel/Truth (Matt. 26:13, John 14:6), which fulfilled the OT revelation (Matt. 5:17, John 19:30, Heb. 7:11-10:10) and culminates the search for salvation by souls who know only general revelation (Rom. 1:20, 2:14-16, Matt. 7:12). Seeking begins when souls love truth/repent of false beliefs (2Thes. 2:10&13, Matt. 4:17, 7:7), which is the Way to eternal life God wills, who is the Lord Jesus (Matt. 7:14, John 1:14, 4:24, 14:6). Lacking this love leads to believing lies and debauchery (Matt. 7:6, Rom. 1:18&25-26, 2Thes. 2:11-12).

How does this compare with your belief?

 

[Delvianna]

Funny that you call the Google definition something I made up.
Ironic that you can claim it as you, when it does not say to obey the Torah in order to be saved.
Maybe you should re-explain what you believe about God's requirement for salvation.

Perhaps it would help for you to compare yours with my understanding of the NT's:

The normative way of stating the kerygma/GRFS in the NT is “Accept Christ Jesus as Lord” (as in Acts 16:31, 2Cor. 4:5 & Col. 2:6) or “Love Jesus as Messiah and Lord” (John 8:42). The main points of Christian orthodoxy implicit in these statements can be explained or elaborated as follows:

1. There is a/one all-loving and just Lord or God (Deut. 6:4, John 3:16, 2Thes. 1:6), who is both able (2Tim. 1:12) and willing (1Tim. 2:3-4, Ezek. 33:11) to provide all morally accountable human beings salvation or heaven—a wonderful life full of love, joy and peace forever.

2. Human beings are selfish or sinful (Rom. 3:23, 2Tim. 3:2-4, Col. 3:5), miserable (Gal. 5:19-21), and hopeless (Eph. 2:12) or hell-bound at the judgment (Matt. 23:33 & 25:46) when they reject God’s salvation (John 3:18, Rom. 2:5-11).

3. Jesus is God’s Messiah/Christ and incarnate Son, the way that God has chosen (John 3:16, Acts 16:30-31, Phil. 2:9-11) of providing salvation by means of his atoning death on the cross for the payment of the penalty for the sins of humanity (Rom. 3:22-25 & 5:9-11), followed by his resurrection to reign in heaven (1Cor. 15:14-28).

4. Thus, every person who hears the NT Gospel needs to repent and accept God’s justification in Jesus as Christ/Messiah the Lord or Supreme Commander (Luke 2:11, John 14:6, Acts 16:31), which means trying to obey (Phil. 3:12, 1John 1:8) His commandment to love one another (Matt. 22:37-40, John 13:35, Rom. 13:9)—forever (Matt. 10:22, Psa. 113:2).

5. Then God’s Holy Spirit will establish a saving relationship with those who freely accept Him (Rev. 3:20) that will eventually achieve heaven when by means of persevering in learning Truth/God’s Word/sanctification everyone cooperates fully with His will (John 14:6, 17&26, Rom. 8:6-17, Gal. 6:7-9, Eph. 1:13-14, Heb. 10:36, 12:1, Jam. 1:2-4). Such cooperation can be termed “the surrendered life”.

6. This creed summarizes revelation of the NT Gospel/Truth (Matt. 26:13, John 14:6), which fulfilled the OT revelation (Matt. 5:17, John 19:30, Heb. 7:11-10:10) and culminates the search for salvation by souls who know only general revelation (Rom. 1:20, 2:14-16, Matt. 7:12). Seeking begins when souls love truth/repent of false beliefs (2Thes. 2:10&13, Matt. 4:17, 7:7), which is the Way to eternal life God wills, who is the Lord Jesus (Matt. 7:14, John 1:14, 4:24, 14:6). Lacking this love leads to believing lies and debauchery (Matt. 7:6, Rom. 1:18&25-26, 2Thes. 2:11-12).

How does this compare with your belief?

So
"..it might be helpful for me to share my understanding of who is a Messianic Jew,
which is a Christian of Jewish heritage, who disavows the need to obey the Torah for salvation but continues to observe
various Jewish practices, such as the Passover seder. My Scriptural basis for this view includes Acts 15:5-11, Rom. 2:5-29,
3:20-5:11 and 10:16-11:32."

Is the google definition is it? Interesting because in your 2nd response to me, which I believe is the google one, it's actually correct while yours (above) isn't.

Ironic that you can claim it as you, when it does not say to obey the Torah in order to be saved.

No where did I say that. Did you actually read what I wrote or just formulate your own bias into a "works is bad" box and tune out what I said? If you're going to consistently misrepresent me in multiple ways, I'm just going to label you a false brother, block and move along.

I'll give you 1 last shot. Re-read what I said and we'll go from there again.

 

[GWH]

So
"..it might be helpful for me to share my understanding of who is a Messianic Jew,
which is a Christian of Jewish heritage, who disavows the need to obey the Torah for salvation but continues to observe
various Jewish practices, such as the Passover seder. My Scriptural basis for this view includes Acts 15:5-11, Rom. 2:5-29,
3:20-5:11 and 10:16-11:32."

Is the google definition is it? Interesting because in your 2nd response to me, which I believe is the google one, it's actually correct while yours (above) isn't.


No where did I say that. Did you actually read what I wrote or just formulate your own bias into a "works is bad" box and tune out what I said? If you're going to consistently misrepresent me in multiple ways, I'm just going to label you a false brother, block and move along.

I'll give you 1 last shot. Re-read what I said and we'll go from there again.

IMO Google and I agree.

What is the antecedent of "that" and of "what"? Be specific.

If you do not want to compare your understandings of God's requirement for salvation per the Scriptures cited,
you should label yourself unwilling to discuss, likely because you realize your beliefs contradict those Scriptures,
which all Christians affirm. We urge you to repent of your Torahism, believe the Gospel and receive the Holy Spirit.

 

[Delvianna]

IMO Google and I agree.

What is the antecedent of "that" and of "what"? Be specific.

If you do not want to compare your understandings of God's requirement for salvation per the Scriptures cited,
you should label yourself unwilling to discuss, likely because you realize your beliefs contradict those Scriptures,
which all Christians affirm. We urge you to repent of your Torahism, believe the Gospel and receive the Holy Spirit.

Alright, I'm just going to block you. You attack people, you don't try to understand what they say, you misrepresent people, and you want to act like I'm the one not listening, lol okay... I literally said you're falsely accusing me and you reply with this. Word of warning, your fruit isn't very righteous if this is constantly how you treat others. Disagreements are fine, but your attitude isn't. I highly suggest you re-assess yourself and actually do what Christ wants you to do before it's too late.

 

[GWH]

Alright, I'm just going to block you. You attack people, you don't try to understand what they say, you misrepresent people, and you want to act like I'm the one not listening, lol okay... I literally said you're falsely accusing me and you reply with this. Word of warning, your fruit isn't very righteous if this is constantly how you treat others. Disagreements are fine, but your attitude isn't. I highly suggest you re-assess yourself and actually do what Christ wants you to do before it's too late.

Your ranting monologue attack does not refute the truth of what I said, but I am willing to learn how I misunderstand your beliefs by engaging in a respectful/righteous discussion. However, it takes two. BTW, I make a conscious effort NOT to "treat" people but only to discuss beliefs compared with Scripture, so please quote me not doing that and I apologize if got personally pejorative.

 

[GWH]

Yes. Does anyone know any Messianic Jews on CC who we could ask to reply/witness to Soy?

bumped for @BenAvraham

 

[dkontner]

God's requirement...

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.