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T
Tintin
Guest
On the whole, I don't think too much of John MacArthur. But, sometimes he comes close to getting it right. Here is an article by one of his followers.
**********************
by Cameron Buettel
We live in a therapeutic culture that seems determined to do away with sin. Adultery and every form of immorality has been re-classified as sex addictions. Addictions to drugs and alcohol are classified as diseases, not the results of deliberate actions. And guns are now perceived as a greater evil than the murderers pulling the trigger. Whatever the sin may be, there always seems to be a way to excuse, redefine, or minimize it.
That determination to separate who a person is and what he does has also infiltrated the church. The exhortation to “love the sinner and hate the sin” is a clever Christian cliché regularly used to deflect people’s responsibility and accountability for their sin. While it’s true that we should both love sinners and hate sin, the cliché distorts those truths by unbiblically severing the two.
Gnosticism Revived
That sort of dualism was prevalent among the Gnostic heretics of the first century AD. The error of the Gnostics was so seductive that the apostle John wrote his first epistle as a direct response to their false teaching. John MacArthur made the following observations regarding the situation facing the church in 1 John:
Gnosticism (from the Greek word gnōsis [“knowledge”]) was an amalgam of various pagan, Jewish, and quasi-Christian systems of thought. Influenced by Greek philosophy (especially that of Plato), Gnosticism taught that matter was inherently evil and spirit was good. That philosophical dualism led the false teachers whom John confronted to accept some form of Christ’s deity, but to deny His humanity. He could not, according to them, have taken on a physical body, since matter was evil. [1]
But it was the Gnostics’ personal application of their dualistic views that echoes today in the efforts to separate the sinner from his sin.
The Gnostics’ philosophical dualism also caused them to be indifferent to moral values and ethical behavior. To them, the body was merely the prison in which the spirit was incarcerated. Therefore, sin committed in the body had no connection to or effect on the spirit. [2]
The cliché of loving the sinner and hating the sin follows the same dualistic reasoning as Gnostic heresies—that we ought to effectively divorce the sinner from the culpability and consequences of his sin.
Worse still, it confuses and corrupts the very concept of what it means to love a sinner. True love does not demand willful ignorance. You wouldn’t simply pretend that a cancer patient was suddenly free from his disease. Nor would you ignore his affliction in hopes that it would go away on its own.
The same holds true for sinners—the most loving thing you can do for them is not to blithely ignore their sin or excuse it away, but to confront it. In other words, you cannot possibly love a sinner if you don’t also hate his sin.
Not Dualism—Dual Responsibilities
I’ll grant that the way we confront sin can vary depending on the nature of the sin and the spiritual condition of the sinner. You might need to show more gentleness with an unbeliever blinded by his own depravity than with a fellow Christian who ought to know better. And even within the church, we need to be measured and considerate with how we confront one another, yet still bold and clear enough to preserve the purity of the Body of Christ.
In fact, church discipline is an essential part of protecting the church’s purity (Matthew 18:15–20). John MacArthur, while commenting on that passage, points out:
A Christian who is not deeply concerned about bringing a fellow Christian back from his sin needs spiritual help himself. Smug indifference, not to mention self-righteous contempt, has no part in the life of a spiritual Christian, nor do sentimentality or cowardice that hide behind false humility. The spiritual Christian neither condemns nor justifies a sinning brother. His concern is for the holiness and blessing of the offending brother, the purity and integrity of the church, and the honor and glory of God. [3]
In response to those who see the confrontation of sin as inherently unloving, John adds:
In the eyes of much of the world and even in the eyes of many immature believers, such action is considered unloving. But discipline given in the right way expresses the deepest kind of love, love that refuses to do nothing to rescue a brother from unrepentant sin and its consequences. Love that winks at sin or that is more concerned for superficial calm in the church than for its spiritual purity is not God’s kind of love. Love that tolerates sin is not love at all but worldly and selfish sentimentality.
To preach love apart from God’s holiness is to teach something other than God’s love. No awakening or revival of the church has ever occurred apart from strong preaching of God’s holiness and the corresponding call for believers to forsake sin and return to the Lord’s standards of purity and righteousness. No church that tolerates known sin in its membership will have spiritual growth or effective evangelism. In spite of that truth, however, such tolerance is standard in the church today-at all levels. [4]
Some people appeal to God’s unconditional love as if that trumps or invalidates His other attributes, most notably His wrath. But as John emphatically argues, such sentiment amounts to nothing less than a popular form of idolatry.
Belief in a God who is all love and no wrath, all grace and no justice, all forgiveness and no condemnation is idolatry (worship of a false god invented by men), and it inevitably leads to universalism-which, of course, is what many liberal churches have been preaching for generations. Salvation becomes meaningless, because sin that God overlooks does not need to be forgiven. Christ’s sacrifice on the cross becomes a travesty, because He gave His life for no redemptive purpose. Not only that, but it becomes apologetically impossible to explain the common question about why a loving God allows pain, suffering, disease, and tragedy. Removing God’s holy hatred of sin emasculates the gospel and hinders rather than helps evangelism. [5]
We should love sinners. We should hate sin. And we shouldn’t divide those two truths into separate categories. Our hatred of sin should manifest itself in a love that warns sinners—compassionately, but no less clearly—of the dire consequences their sin demands. Short of that, how could we ever claim to truly love them?
**********************
by Cameron Buettel
We live in a therapeutic culture that seems determined to do away with sin. Adultery and every form of immorality has been re-classified as sex addictions. Addictions to drugs and alcohol are classified as diseases, not the results of deliberate actions. And guns are now perceived as a greater evil than the murderers pulling the trigger. Whatever the sin may be, there always seems to be a way to excuse, redefine, or minimize it.
That determination to separate who a person is and what he does has also infiltrated the church. The exhortation to “love the sinner and hate the sin” is a clever Christian cliché regularly used to deflect people’s responsibility and accountability for their sin. While it’s true that we should both love sinners and hate sin, the cliché distorts those truths by unbiblically severing the two.
Gnosticism Revived
That sort of dualism was prevalent among the Gnostic heretics of the first century AD. The error of the Gnostics was so seductive that the apostle John wrote his first epistle as a direct response to their false teaching. John MacArthur made the following observations regarding the situation facing the church in 1 John:
Gnosticism (from the Greek word gnōsis [“knowledge”]) was an amalgam of various pagan, Jewish, and quasi-Christian systems of thought. Influenced by Greek philosophy (especially that of Plato), Gnosticism taught that matter was inherently evil and spirit was good. That philosophical dualism led the false teachers whom John confronted to accept some form of Christ’s deity, but to deny His humanity. He could not, according to them, have taken on a physical body, since matter was evil. [1]
But it was the Gnostics’ personal application of their dualistic views that echoes today in the efforts to separate the sinner from his sin.
The Gnostics’ philosophical dualism also caused them to be indifferent to moral values and ethical behavior. To them, the body was merely the prison in which the spirit was incarcerated. Therefore, sin committed in the body had no connection to or effect on the spirit. [2]
The cliché of loving the sinner and hating the sin follows the same dualistic reasoning as Gnostic heresies—that we ought to effectively divorce the sinner from the culpability and consequences of his sin.
Worse still, it confuses and corrupts the very concept of what it means to love a sinner. True love does not demand willful ignorance. You wouldn’t simply pretend that a cancer patient was suddenly free from his disease. Nor would you ignore his affliction in hopes that it would go away on its own.
The same holds true for sinners—the most loving thing you can do for them is not to blithely ignore their sin or excuse it away, but to confront it. In other words, you cannot possibly love a sinner if you don’t also hate his sin.
Not Dualism—Dual Responsibilities
I’ll grant that the way we confront sin can vary depending on the nature of the sin and the spiritual condition of the sinner. You might need to show more gentleness with an unbeliever blinded by his own depravity than with a fellow Christian who ought to know better. And even within the church, we need to be measured and considerate with how we confront one another, yet still bold and clear enough to preserve the purity of the Body of Christ.
In fact, church discipline is an essential part of protecting the church’s purity (Matthew 18:15–20). John MacArthur, while commenting on that passage, points out:
A Christian who is not deeply concerned about bringing a fellow Christian back from his sin needs spiritual help himself. Smug indifference, not to mention self-righteous contempt, has no part in the life of a spiritual Christian, nor do sentimentality or cowardice that hide behind false humility. The spiritual Christian neither condemns nor justifies a sinning brother. His concern is for the holiness and blessing of the offending brother, the purity and integrity of the church, and the honor and glory of God. [3]
In response to those who see the confrontation of sin as inherently unloving, John adds:
In the eyes of much of the world and even in the eyes of many immature believers, such action is considered unloving. But discipline given in the right way expresses the deepest kind of love, love that refuses to do nothing to rescue a brother from unrepentant sin and its consequences. Love that winks at sin or that is more concerned for superficial calm in the church than for its spiritual purity is not God’s kind of love. Love that tolerates sin is not love at all but worldly and selfish sentimentality.
To preach love apart from God’s holiness is to teach something other than God’s love. No awakening or revival of the church has ever occurred apart from strong preaching of God’s holiness and the corresponding call for believers to forsake sin and return to the Lord’s standards of purity and righteousness. No church that tolerates known sin in its membership will have spiritual growth or effective evangelism. In spite of that truth, however, such tolerance is standard in the church today-at all levels. [4]
Some people appeal to God’s unconditional love as if that trumps or invalidates His other attributes, most notably His wrath. But as John emphatically argues, such sentiment amounts to nothing less than a popular form of idolatry.
Belief in a God who is all love and no wrath, all grace and no justice, all forgiveness and no condemnation is idolatry (worship of a false god invented by men), and it inevitably leads to universalism-which, of course, is what many liberal churches have been preaching for generations. Salvation becomes meaningless, because sin that God overlooks does not need to be forgiven. Christ’s sacrifice on the cross becomes a travesty, because He gave His life for no redemptive purpose. Not only that, but it becomes apologetically impossible to explain the common question about why a loving God allows pain, suffering, disease, and tragedy. Removing God’s holy hatred of sin emasculates the gospel and hinders rather than helps evangelism. [5]
We should love sinners. We should hate sin. And we shouldn’t divide those two truths into separate categories. Our hatred of sin should manifest itself in a love that warns sinners—compassionately, but no less clearly—of the dire consequences their sin demands. Short of that, how could we ever claim to truly love them?
i'm so glad you posted this! so many Christians think it is a Bible verse, and it ain't!
great post.
T
Tintin
Guest
H
HisHolly
Guest
its a trap much like they tried to trip up Jesus.. What do you say about this... People will sin and always ask the church what they think. just have to be smarter than them
I agree with Tintin here! If gays and the other letters wanted to go off and quietly do their thing, I guess I would let them, although I would tell them about Jesus.
A long time ago, that is what gays did. I had no idea there was such a thing as a gay person growing up. I was in my early 20's before I even knew what being gay meant.
But that is not the agenda! It is not to live in peace, and be able to do their thing. It has become increasingly about pushing their lifestyle on the world. And that starts young! I remember when I was teaching, a homosexual grade 1 teacher started bringing books about "2 mommies" or "2 daddies" to school and reading it to his students. Some of the parents found out about it (this was a very conservative school district!) and they took it to a school trustee who was a Christian. They lobbied the school board, with the help of the trustee, and the books were taken out of circulation and banned. That was the early 1990's.
So I looked this up a while ago, and the School District reversed their position about 15 years later, after much lobbying by the LBGT people. And this time, no one protested! Why? Because this LBGT movement has so infiltrated our society in such a short time, that people think there is nothing wrong with giving kids in grade 1 books which tell them it is ok to be gay. I call that brainwashing, but maybe I am mistaken?
I think this gay lobby is not going to be satisfied with anything but the total breakdown of the family, traditional marriage, and opportunities to push the "joy of being gay" on young people from kindergarten to high school. The province of Alberta, where I used to live has this super gay agenda. They brought in a LAW saying all schools had to have "gay-straight alliances!" I think that means that the gays have a club, and the straights, stay away. Or not!
Anyway, the principal of 2 Christian schools said it was not happening. They were not going to allow people to promote homosexuality in their schools. The education minister was going to pull funding. There was a big fight in the media, and I don't think it is still resolved. The sad part is, that province has many, many Christian schools, many of them partially funded by the provincial government. (No, we do not have separation of church and state, and had cooperation for many years! That is not happening anymore.) But why were these other Christian schools not protesting this attempt to manipulate children?? That is the worst thing of all. Because when Christians stop defending what the Bible says, it is game over. Maybe is already game over!
I have just seen such a warping and perversion in our society since I grew up. I fear for the future of my grandchildren, thinking that there is nothing wrong with a man coming into a woman's washroom. And so forth! This is really a case where all good men have to do is nothing, for evil to prevail.
PS This is not to insult anyone struggling with these desires and trying to break free with the help of God. That is exactly the message we need to give people. God can forgive and he can change people, although sometimes breaking free from sin is a battle, no doubt!
A long time ago, that is what gays did. I had no idea there was such a thing as a gay person growing up. I was in my early 20's before I even knew what being gay meant.
But that is not the agenda! It is not to live in peace, and be able to do their thing. It has become increasingly about pushing their lifestyle on the world. And that starts young! I remember when I was teaching, a homosexual grade 1 teacher started bringing books about "2 mommies" or "2 daddies" to school and reading it to his students. Some of the parents found out about it (this was a very conservative school district!) and they took it to a school trustee who was a Christian. They lobbied the school board, with the help of the trustee, and the books were taken out of circulation and banned. That was the early 1990's.
So I looked this up a while ago, and the School District reversed their position about 15 years later, after much lobbying by the LBGT people. And this time, no one protested! Why? Because this LBGT movement has so infiltrated our society in such a short time, that people think there is nothing wrong with giving kids in grade 1 books which tell them it is ok to be gay. I call that brainwashing, but maybe I am mistaken?
I think this gay lobby is not going to be satisfied with anything but the total breakdown of the family, traditional marriage, and opportunities to push the "joy of being gay" on young people from kindergarten to high school. The province of Alberta, where I used to live has this super gay agenda. They brought in a LAW saying all schools had to have "gay-straight alliances!" I think that means that the gays have a club, and the straights, stay away. Or not!
Anyway, the principal of 2 Christian schools said it was not happening. They were not going to allow people to promote homosexuality in their schools. The education minister was going to pull funding. There was a big fight in the media, and I don't think it is still resolved. The sad part is, that province has many, many Christian schools, many of them partially funded by the provincial government. (No, we do not have separation of church and state, and had cooperation for many years! That is not happening anymore.) But why were these other Christian schools not protesting this attempt to manipulate children?? That is the worst thing of all. Because when Christians stop defending what the Bible says, it is game over. Maybe is already game over!
I have just seen such a warping and perversion in our society since I grew up. I fear for the future of my grandchildren, thinking that there is nothing wrong with a man coming into a woman's washroom. And so forth! This is really a case where all good men have to do is nothing, for evil to prevail.
PS This is not to insult anyone struggling with these desires and trying to break free with the help of God. That is exactly the message we need to give people. God can forgive and he can change people, although sometimes breaking free from sin is a battle, no doubt!
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T
Tintin
Guest
A
Amazing-Grace
Guest
None of this is a surprise to God of course, it is all the symptoms of what is predicted before Jesus returns, it's all in Revelations and elsewhere in the Bible so we should not be fretting over this - that is not to say we shouldn't be staunchly against it and God expects His people to speak out against it whatever the consequences of doing so may be. Actually we should be gleefully awaiting the conclusion!
Same gender relations is nothing more than a lust, an eagerness to possess or consume upon their selfish desires: such is a sin just as stealing or lying are sins, which if a person truly believes in God will repent themselves and stop stealing and stop lying, and so is it with this sin; its that simple for every sin. They which seek excuse or a covering for their sin are of the world, therefore they speak of the world, and the world hears them; but they who are of God hears God's Word, and there is no in between the two.
yes it disgust Him, but He had them stoned to put away the evil from among them, knowing ones life is dear to them if the tempter foisted this foul thought or emotion upon their minds they would reject it knowing the result....
I think we should hate what He hates, and be disgusted by the things that He sees as disgusting... I think its a mistake to allow people to think they can do whatever they think is right and not suffer the result, Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
To be complacent in these and other matters is a huge mistake, we as believers, (when led to speak out by His Spirit) and we choose to be silent, we are allowing many precious souls to perish, its time we hold firm to the truth and stop being pacifist.
To be complacent in these and other matters is a huge mistake, we as believers, (when led to speak out by His Spirit) and we choose to be silent, we are allowing many precious souls to perish, its time we hold firm to the truth and stop being pacifist.
This is what I think.
Whomsoever judges another, will be judged by God.
This isn't our home, so why try to fix people that live in this world?
I do not believe that any sin mentioned in the Bible is more sinful than another sin. But wicked people with malice in their heart nit pick God's Word and go on to persecute other..... Exactly The opposite of what Christ teaches, which is....."Love one another as I have loved you"....."For the same measure you judge, so too, will you be judged "
Whomsoever judges another, will be judged by God.
This isn't our home, so why try to fix people that live in this world?
I do not believe that any sin mentioned in the Bible is more sinful than another sin. But wicked people with malice in their heart nit pick God's Word and go on to persecute other..... Exactly The opposite of what Christ teaches, which is....."Love one another as I have loved you"....."For the same measure you judge, so too, will you be judged "
God said homosexuality is a sin:
You shall not lie with a male as with a woman; it is an abomination. Levitcus 18:22 RSV
Don’t ever doubt God.