Local church

[Chuckt]

I think too many pastors and some in ministry are trying to do it in their own self-effort and they are getting burned out. They are very sincere but not living under the grace of Christ. I have listened to many ministers that once they got the revelation of the true gospel of the grace of Christ - their whole lives changed and this makes the hardships of the ministry bearable and even joyful.

It is a hard job. People call their houses all the time and interrupt the family during birthdays and expect them to help when someone in the church should step up. There is an elder I know and people in his church call up for him to get their prescriptions and he gets it for them and I think some of them could get it themselves.

There are people in the church who think they are an expert who are judging what the pastor says.

From my perspective, people are very sinful and don't listen to me so why would I want a job where people don't listen to me? You are judged if you aren't driving a nice car and you are judged if you are driving an expensive car. And atheists give them a hard time.

My mother in law volunteered to cook for the church and other people didn't show up so it infuriated her so she never went back because it took hours to peel, clean and cut potatoes.

We need to have more than Sunday only Christians.

 

[hornetguy]

We are not made righteous, sanctified, justified or saved or added to the body of Christ by water baptism. That doctrine which you espouse is not, "the preaching of the cross" or the "preaching of Jesus Christ" according to the revelation of the mystery.

Then why do it at all?

The gospel of this ministry is "saved by grace", not salvation is a process, "through grace"

"This ministry".... which ministry is that? Your ministry?

If what you believe is "saved by grace" only, then I'll just leave you to YOUR ministry.

I believe I'll stick with the apostle Paul...

[SUP]13 [/SUP]Is Christ divided? Was Paul crucified for you? Were you baptized in the name of Paul? [SUP]14 [/SUP]I thank God that I did not baptize any of you except Crispus and Gaius, [SUP]15 [/SUP]so no one can say that you were baptized in my name. [SUP]16 [/SUP](Yes, I also baptized the household of Stephanas; beyond that, I don’t remember if I baptized anyone else.)

and the apostle Peter...

[SUP]38 [/SUP]Peter replied, “Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit

and Philip....

[SUP]36 [/SUP]As they traveled along the road, they came to some water and the eunuch said, “Look, here is water. What can stand in the way of my being baptized?” [SUP][37] [/SUP][SUP][c][/SUP] [SUP]38 [/SUP]And he gave orders to stop the chariot. Then both Philip and the eunuch went down into the water and Philip baptized him.

and, of course, Jesus our savior...

[SUP]18 [/SUP]Then Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. [SUP]19 [/SUP]Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, [SUP]20 [/SUP]and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you.

The gift of salvation is free. God's grace to us is free for the asking.... but salvation doesn't come by simply saying "thank you Lord". There's more to it than that.

 

[Complete_In_Him]

but salvation doesn't come by simply saying "thank you Lord".

I have been where you are.

I know this is not going to be easy, so, in my experience, it was good to lay aside certain things, let's focus on faith.

Where is your faith?


Do you believe God, and trust in Christ and what He did for you on that cross 100% plus nothing added, for the complete salvation of your soul?


If not, you have misplaced faith.


Be honest, with yourself, with God, in your heart. It is ok to set your doctrines down at the foot of the cross and just trust in Christ and start from there. God wants to receive you, hear you, love you, teach you, help you, bless you. He is patient and He is kind, meek and lowly in heart toward us.

Grace is freely given(unto all), we receive all the gifts, benefits, blessings, mercy and righteousness of God by trusting in the work and faith of Christ(and upon all who believe).

Sometimes, when we believe something so deeply, doctrinally, it seems so right, so true, to question it, almost seems like questioning God... but, He is our Counselor and Helper, lover of our soul, He wants us to turn to Him.


Just examine if your faith is completely in Christ, God your Savior, 100% plus nothing, for the salvation of your soul. You have to have salvation, before you can respond to it or "work it out"

[SUP]8 [/SUP]For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:[SUP]9 [/SUP]Not of works, lest any man should boast. [SUP]24 [/SUP]Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus


[SUP]13 [/SUP]In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, [SUP]14 [/SUP]Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

[SUP]18 [/SUP]To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me.

 

[Complete_In_Him]

Another thing, salvation of the soul(saved) is what we are discussing, not salvation of the mind(being saved). There is much to discuss when it comes to the new creation, the new creature, the one new man, God is currently forming in this ministry and dispensation. All of the bible is for us, our admonition and our learning, but all of the bible is not to us or about us. We will do well to see the distinctions God has placed in His word, for our position and vocation in the household of God. Good night.

 

[hornetguy]

So why are you trying to create two salvations?

If you accept the free gift of salvation from God, the way He said to do it (see scriptures above) then you are saved. I don't see that there is any other kind of salvation needed.

One Lord, one faith, one baptism...

Trying to overcomplicate things is foolishness.

And, even though I don't need to justify myself to you, yes, I believe that our salvation was worked out by Jesus, when He became the once and only sacrifice for all those who will accept it.

I don't believe that I can "do" any works that will help ensure my salvation. His sacrifice was enough.

It's the ACCEPTANCE of that salvation is where you seem to be missing what scripture so plainly teaches.

Read about the guy that was told to go dip in the Jordan river.... he thought that was stupid, because there were far better places to go to be healed.
Jesus doesn't want our opinions on how the salvation process should be done, He simply told us what to do. It's up to us to either accept what He said, or to reject it because it doesn't fit with OUR idea of how we should be saved.

I agree we should set all of OUR doctrines down at the foot of the cross.... I just won't set down HIS doctrines.

 

[Chuckt]

So why are you trying to create two salvations?

What you said in your previous message was:

The gift of salvation is free. God's grace to us is free for the asking.... but salvation doesn't come by simply saying "thank you Lord". There's more to it than that.

(Message 262 in this thread).

It seems like you are saying two different things.

I picked up on it but decided not to call you out on it.

You have the opportunity to clarify what you mean but I'm thankful for the responses by "Complete In Him".

I believe in Grace Through Faith Through Christ plus nothing.

 

[hornetguy]

Salvation is a free gift. It's God's covenant with His chosen ones. All we have to do is accept it, and the way we show that we've accepted being in this covenant with God is by being baptized, as Jesus commanded.
Compare it to God's covenant with Abraham... man's acceptance of that covenant was shown through circumcision.

I believe in Grace Through Faith Through Christ plus nothing.

So, all the scriptures I pasted above mean nothing to you? You've decided that you have a better plan than God?

 

[Bookends]

Salvation is a free gift. It's God's covenant with His chosen ones. All we have to do is accept it, and the way we show that we've accepted being in this covenant with God is by being baptized, as Jesus commanded.
Compare it to God's covenant with Abraham... man's acceptance of that covenant was shown through circumcision.



So, all the scriptures I pasted above mean nothing to you? You've decided that you have a better plan than God?

Did Jesus directly command us to be baptized by water? I thought it was Peter.

 

[Willie-T]

Did Jesus directly command us to be baptized by water? I thought it was Peter.

Matthew 28:19-20New Revised Standard Version (NRSV)

19 Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 and teaching them to obey everything that I have commanded you. And remember, I am with you always, to the end of the age.”[a]

 

[Chuckt]

Salvation is a free gift. It's God's covenant with His chosen ones. All we have to do is accept it, and the way we show that we've accepted being in this covenant with God is by being baptized, as Jesus commanded.
Compare it to God's covenant with Abraham... man's acceptance of that covenant was shown through circumcision.



So, all the scriptures I pasted above mean nothing to you? You've decided that you have a better plan than God?

It means I was taught the truth and this is the only way to salvation. If you add anything to salvation, you aren't trusting Jesus and you aren't believing in Jesus because it isn't Jesus plus something. If works were enough then Jesus died in vain. Your argument is Jesus isn't enough.

 

[Bookends]

Matthew 28:19-20New Revised Standard Version (NRSV)

19 Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 and teaching them to obey everything that I have commanded you. And remember, I am with you always, to the end of the age.”[a]

Says nothing about water there, it may be referring to water, but one could also make the case that it's referring to being put into Christ, God, the "name"...

 

[Yet]

The HIPPY church. Remember the catch phrase? 'If it feels good...do it'. That's where most Christians are. 'If it feels good...do it'.

Clerical hierarchy...contrary to the NT. But...'if it feels good....do it.'

Tithing...contrary to the NT. But...'if it feels good...do it'.

Religious titles...contrary to the NT. But...'if it feels good...do it'.

Leaders not working secular jobs...contrary to the NT. But...'if it feels good....do it'.

Forcing grandma and poor to pay up.....contrary to the OT and NT. But...'if it feels good....do it'.

Sitting in the pew with your spiritual functions dormant....contrary to the NT. But...'if it feels good...do it'.

Yep! The First Church of the Hippies! IF IT FEELS GOOD...JUST DO IT!

 

[Bookends]

The HIPPY church. Remember the catch phrase? 'If it feels good...do it'. That's where most Christians are. 'If it feels good...do it'.

Clerical hierarchy...contrary to the NT. But...'if it feels good....do it.'

Tithing...contrary to the NT. But...'if it feels good...do it'.

Religious titles...contrary to the NT. But...'if it feels good...do it'.

Leaders not working secular jobs...contrary to the NT. But...'if it feels good....do it'.

Forcing grandma and poor to pay up.....contrary to the OT and NT. But...'if it feels good....do it'.

Sitting in the pew with your spiritual functions dormant....contrary to the NT. But...'if it feels good...do it'.

Yep! The First Church of the Hippies! IF IT FEELS GOOD...JUST DO IT!

Some truth mixed with error. First, Paul didn't take money because he didn't want the churches that he set up to think he was in for the money. However, Paul did say the teacher/preacher/minister/head elder, whatever you wanta call it, is worthy of his wages. 1 Timothy 5:

Honor the Elders

17 Let the elders who rule well be counted worthy of double honor, especially those who labor in the word and doctrine. 18 For the Scripture says, “You shall not muzzle an ox while it treads out the grain,”[c] and, “The laborer is worthy of his wages.”[d]19 Do not receive an accusation against an elder except from two or three witnesses. 20 Those who are sinning rebuke in the presence of all, that the rest also may fear.

Also 1 Corinthians 9:14:

14 Even so the Lord has commanded that those who preach the gospel should live from the gospel.

Also Galations 6:6;

6 Let him who is taught the word share in all good things with him who teaches.


See, Yet, "we the congregations" aught to share what we have with those who labor and devote their lives to the gospel. My dad wanted nothing more but to be a farmer. But He heard the Lord call him to the ministry. He said it was an audible voice, and that was the only time he heard an audible voice, which is one reason why I believe my dad. He didn't go around proclaiming God literally spoke to him (trying to elevate himself above others). My dad's ministry was to set up new churches, and often we didn't have enough money to pay the bills, but somehow, God mysteriously provided, which is the second reason my I believe my dad (what a faith builder). Often my Dad took on 2nd Jobs that the Lord provided to meet our needs, sometimes money just came in from unknown sources.

I'm not saying that there are abuses of the clerical system take place. But a biblical case can be made for leaders and workers of the faith, James was the head elder, a leader, of the Jerusalem church. Timothy was the head elder of the church in Ephesus.

I sorry to say, you don't believe in the permissive will of God, for example, God didn't want the Israelites to have a king, but God allowed it, and HE used these kings (some good, some bad) to bring about His sovereign will. You do more to demonstrate the lack of love for others then to bring the church together, you bring contempt and division.

 

[dcontroversal]

FULLY AGREE....note..Jesus said where 2 or 3 are gathered together in my name....2 or 3 together have just as much authority and or right as 100 gathered in the name of Jesus....

 

[Bookends]

Some truth mixed with error. First, Paul didn't take money because he didn't want the churches that he set up to think he was in for the money. However, Paul did say the teacher/preacher/minister/head elder, whatever you wanta call it, is worthy of his wages. 1 Timothy 5:

Honor the Elders

17 Let the elders who rule well be counted worthy of double honor, especially those who labor in the word and doctrine. 18 For the Scripture says, “You shall not muzzle an ox while it treads out the grain,”[c] and, “The laborer is worthy of his wages.”[d]19 Do not receive an accusation against an elder except from two or three witnesses. 20 Those who are sinning rebuke in the presence of all, that the rest also may fear.

Also 1 Corinthians 9:14:

14 Even so the Lord has commanded that those who preach the gospel should live from the gospel.

Also Galations 6:6;

6 Let him who is taught the word share in all good things with him who teaches.


See, Yet, "we the congregations" aught to share what we have with those who labor and devote their lives to the gospel. My dad wanted nothing more but to be a farmer. But He heard the Lord call him to the ministry. He said it was an audible voice, and that was the only time he heard an audible voice, which is one reason why I believe my dad. He didn't go around proclaiming God literally spoke to him (trying to elevate himself above others). My dad's ministry was to set up new churches, and often we didn't have enough money to pay the bills, but somehow, God mysteriously provided, which is the second reason my I believe my dad (what a faith builder). Often my Dad took on 2nd Jobs that the Lord provided to meet our needs, sometimes money just came in from unknown sources.

I'm not saying that there aren't abuses of the clerical system that take place. But a biblical case can be made for leaders and workers of the faith, James was the head elder, a leader, of the Jerusalem church. Timothy was the head elder of the church in Ephesus.

I sorry to say, you don't believe in the permissive will of God, for example, God didn't want the Israelites to have a king, but God allowed it, and HE used these kings (some good, some bad) to bring about His sovereign will. You do more to demonstrate the lack of love for others then to bring the church together, you bring contempt and division.

correction need, sorry.

 

[Complete_In_Him]

I agree we should set all of OUR doctrines down at the foot of the cross.... I just won't set down HIS doctrines.

There is no need to discuss doctrines with you now, His or otherwise, because you have not obeyed a form of doctrine with your heart, the gospel of your salvation, God is not dealing with nations today in this dispensation, "saved by grace", the church the body of Christ does not earn, maintain or accept the gift of righteousness with an act of the flesh.

[SUP]3 [/SUP]But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.

Doctrines of theology, always lead to a yoke of bondage when adding to the cross work of Christ, creating another Christ, another gospel, hence all the choices in "houses" of worship.

[SUP]24 [/SUP]Hearken unto me now therefore, O ye children, and attend to the words of my mouth.
[SUP]25 [/SUP]Let not thine heart decline to her ways, go not astray in her paths.
[SUP]26 [/SUP]For she hath cast down many wounded: yea, many strong men have been slain by her.
[SUP]27 [/SUP]Her house is the way to hell, going down to the chambers of death.

 

[AuntieAnt]

What you are doing is not making a difference in the lives of other believers.
You are not supporting missionaries or people who need to learn about Christ in the local church.
You aren't worshipping God in the church.
And they aren't making a difference in your life.
I think that it is also very difficult that you can think that you can do the job alone and be a lone ranger because lone rangers can be outnumbered.
There are people with real needs who need real help that you are neglecting and they are your brothers and sisters if you are a Christian.

James 4:17 If anyone, then, knows the good they ought to do and doesn't do it, it is sin for them.

Actually, just witnessing how Yet gets pummeled on this thread and yet he continues to witness for the glory of Christ, is making a difference in me.

 

[Willie-T]

Says nothing about water there, it may be referring to water, but one could also make the case that it's referring to being put into Christ, God, the "name"...

My wife is getting to know you guys pretty well. She told me when I typed that, "You do know one of those reactionary people who has no idea what 'baptize' means in Greek is going to come right back with some foolish statement about the word 'water' not being mentioned, don't you?"

I defended the forum, saying no one here was that _______ . I was wrong.

 

[Willie-T]

Actually, just witnessing how Yet gets pummeled on this thread and yet he continues to witness for the glory of Christ, is making a difference in me.

Me too. It's making me very weary of listening to that nonsense.

 

[Complete_In_Him]

My wife is getting to know you guys pretty well. She told me when I typed that, "You do know one of those reactionary people who has no idea what 'baptize' means in Greek is going to come right back with some foolish statement about the word 'water' not being mentioned, don't you?"

I defended the forum, saying no one here was that _______ . I was wrong.

Yeah, I'm sorry he did that too.