Locked & Loaded?

[JimJimmers]

I saw in Jullianna's thread about rights, there was mention of firearms. So I figured I'd start a new thread, as I didn't want to derail Jullianna's thread. (That's actually a lie, I desperately wanted to derail it, I just didn't want her to wax my legs )

I wanted to hear from the folks, particularly from countries other than the U.S., who had something they wanted to say about guns and rights.

Just a few ground rules here: No Ad Hominem attacks, anecdotal evidence, or name-calling. Only empirical evidence and counter argument/refutation will be accepted.

Fire away! (Figuratively!)

 

[JesusChica1991]

I want to say something about Julianna waxing your legs..but then i'd be derailing your thread!

*keep scrolling everyone*

 

[AgeofKnowledge]

The current government war on the Bill of Rights (they are attacking the 1st, 2nd, and 4th most aggressively) is unconstitutional, misguided, immoral, and will result in more innocents dying as the primary counter-weight (e.g. armed law abiding citizens) to the increasing number of armed criminals is dismantled.

The New Government War On U.S. Gun Owners ~ Help Fix America First

 

[kayem77]

I was raised in Mexico, so I grew up with a taboo for guns, which is ironic since we do have guns in Mexico but the ones who own them are members of cartels, not regular civilians. In the US guns are available to almost anyone, depending on every State's regulations; so owning a gun is usually for safety purposes; but in Mexico they are pretty much prohibited which means that anyone who owns a gun is breaking the law (unless that person meets the strict regulations), and also since it's hard to get a gun, most of the times those who posses guns are members of drug cartels, or related to them. I think Mexicans are in disadvantage here, we are left unprotected before the druglords and the violence that comes with the Mexican drug war, while the criminals are protected by the Government with these, in my opinion, stupid laws.

Soooo.............what I'm trying to get at is , I think Mexico needs better laws, I think we should be allowed to own guns and be allowed to use them in self-defense, like our neighbors (the US) do, but I also think there's no need to own automatic guns or any weapon intended to be used at wars and that these restrictions should be equally enforced so that noone is left in disadvantage .

 

[AgeofKnowledge]

Yes kayem but the illegally armed criminals are not using revolvers and shotguns. They like fully automatic foreign made weapons. Only 17% of the arms found at gun homicide scenes in Mexico are even made in the U.S.. The U.S. already outlaws fully automatics firearms for U.S. citizens almost everywhere in the U.S..

China is the second largest firearm producer in the world and many nations produce a substantial number of fully automatic firearms for sale around the world including Russia, the eastern bloc, etc... South American nations like Argentina and Brazil make a number of firearms as well.

The point is that U.S. citizens shouldn't have to show up to an AK-47 firefight with illegally armed criminals carrying a shotgun and a revolver!!! That's not anything close to a fair fight.

Less is more when it comes to gun control. Every American household needs the right to an AR15 in my estimation. The nation should get back to stressing gun safety and gun ownership like they used to. While they are at it, they should get back to stressing morals and traditional values as well.

 

[kayem77]

Ehhh a AR15 is , in my opinion, something that shouldn't be in anyone's household. I would be satisfied with just having the right to own a handgun, maybe a shotgun. To be honest I don't see the point of owning an automatic or semiautomatic rifle if you just want it to protect your family.
The Mexican Government's big mistake is that noone is allowed to own any kind of guns, wether it is a pistol , a revolver, much less a semiautomatic weapon. So criminals, usually drug cartel members, illegally get all kinds of weapons while everyone else is unarmed. That's what's unfair. They usually war between cartels, but if we could have guns, it wouldn't be so easy for them to mess with people when they do. Of course this is only the tip of the iceberg, I could go on and on about Mexico's Drug War history. We don't see shootings as often as Americans think we do though, criminals usually war among themselves.

Btw, I don't know if the guns smuggled into Mexico are made in the US, but I do know that around 70% of them come from from the US. The rest comes from other South American countries or the Middle East. Anyway, I'm no gun expert, those are just my observations as a civilian.

 

[AgeofKnowledge]

A Tale of Two Cities

 

[AmmiAmmiel]

Ehhh a AR15 is , in my opinion, something that shouldn't be in anyone's household. I would be satisfied with just having the right to own a handgun, maybe a shotgun. To be honest I don't see the point of owning an automatic or semiautomatic rifle if you just want it to protect your family.[\QUOTE]

Why wouldn't I think I might need an automatic/semiautomatic rifle to protect myself from criminals like the cartel and other terrorist organizations. Did you know that the most violent cartel in Mexico is Islamic? Many Mexicans are converting to Islam because of the shared hatred for the U.S...

 

[kayem77]

Why wouldn't I think I might need an automatic/semiautomatic rifle to protect myself from criminals like the cartel and other terrorist organizations. Did you know that the most violent cartel in Mexico is Islamic? Many Mexicans are converting to Islam because of the shared hatred for the U.S...

If we were all alowed to have guns the cartels wouldn't be so empowered to begin with. There wouldn't be a need to have automatic weapons, or grenades, bazookas, or whatever. Just because they have bazookas, and they do, I'm not gonna get one and plan to fight them with it. It's all about establishing a fair ground for everyone.

I don't know where you got your information from , but the most violent cartel in Mexico is Los Zetas and the cartel is mostly integrated by deserters of the Mexican Army's elite forces and ex-federal and ex-local police officers. They also recruit ex-militants from South American countries. If the cartel has connections with an Islamic group, the connection is not religious. It's not true at all that many Mexicans are converting to Islam, and neither do Mexicans hate the US. Be careful with saying a general statement like that one please, it's not true.

 

[AgeofKnowledge]

Then we disagree on this point kayem77.

Fortunately, us Americans have something here called the Bill of Rights and it's not subject to the whims and feelings of kayem77 or myself. It states "the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed" and that is what is supposed to be upheld. If every household wants an AR15 then our Constitution says they can and so do I.

Mexico is overflowing with gun homicide compared to the U.S.. Mexico's National Institute of Statistics and Geography (INEGI) and National Public Safety System Executive Secretariat (SESNSP) report that Mexico has an average of 16,867 murders a year right now with 50% of them due to illegally armed criminal groups and that they increased 37% from 2006 to 2012 and continue to rise. Organizations external to the Mexican government claim the actual number may be double that. Mexico's population is much smaller but their gun homicide rate is far higher. Ironic in a nation with strict gun control laws.

The whole point of having an AR15 for self defense (if that's what you're getting one for) is to have adequate firepower to combat illegally armed criminals when they come calling. And they do. We just had the gang taskforce here where I live stop a Mexican cartel murder right up the street. Legally armed citizens stop illegally armed criminals all the time in this country. Take that away and we deteriorate into Mexico's situation.

Ehhh a AR15 is , in my opinion, something that shouldn't be in anyone's household. I would be satisfied with just having the right to own a handgun, maybe a shotgun. To be honest I don't see the point of owning an automatic or semiautomatic rifle if you just want it to protect your family.
The Mexican Government's big mistake is that noone is allowed to own any kind of guns, wether it is a pistol , a revolver, much less a semiautomatic weapon. So criminals, usually drug cartel members, illegally get all kinds of weapons while everyone else is unarmed. That's what's unfair. They usually war between cartels, but if we could have guns, it wouldn't be so easy for them to mess with people when they do. Of course this is only the tip of the iceberg, I could go on and on about Mexico's Drug War history. We don't see shootings as often as Americans think we do though, criminals usually war among themselves.

Btw, I don't know if the guns smuggled into Mexico are made in the US, but I do know that around 70% of them come from from the US. The rest comes from other South American countries or the Middle East. Anyway, I'm no gun expert, those are just my observations as a civilian.

 

[zeroturbulence]

Its really all about leveling out the playing field, guys.

Some people want to level out the playing field by taking the guns away from the criminals so they don't have an edge over unarmed citizens.

Others want to level out the playing field by giving unarmed citizens the same guns the criminals have, so the criminals will not have an edge over the citizens.

Same difference. Stalemate. Tie. Draw. Deuce. Put a fork in it.

 

[AmmiAmmiel]

Its really all about leveling out the playing field, guys.

Some people want to level out the playing field by taking the guns away from the criminals so they don't have an edge over unarmed citizens.

Others want to level out the playing field by giving unarmed citizens the same guns the criminals have, so the criminals will not have an edge over the citizens.

Same difference. Stalemate. Tie. Draw. Deuce. Put a fork in it.

Not necessarily,.. One will always have an edge against the other eventually in time,.. If a second revolutionary war happens in America, there's no telling who will come out of it with the most influential, economic, military and spiritual power,.. I believe that it is very possible, I might even say probable, that who would be the leader of this nation after such a war could be the Antichrist. A stalemate condition always ends in a dominate/submit scenario.

 

[zeroturbulence]

Not necessarily,.. One will always have an edge against the other eventually in time,.. If a second revolutionary war happens in America, there's no telling who will come out of it with the most influential, economic, military and spiritual power,.. I believe that it is very possible, I might even say probable, that who would be the leader of this nation after such a war could be the Antichrist. A stalemate condition always ends in a dominate/submit scenario.

What I mean is that the argument is a tie, draw, deuce, stalemate. Not that everything would suddenly be equal. Sheesh. I'm not that stupid, although sometimes I think I am.

 

[AgeofKnowledge]

They are not the same thing and the result of either is very different. There is no stalemate. One side will eventually succeed over the other. The right side is the one that keeps ready access to firearms in the hands of the law abiding citizenry for all of the very important reasons stated and many more that have not yet been. The wrong side is the one that reduces the law abiding citizenry to victim status greatly empowering violent criminals. It's really that simple.

What I mean is that the argument is a tie, draw, deuce, stalemate. Not that everything would suddenly be equal. Sheesh. I'm not that stupid, although sometimes I think I am.

 

[JimJimmers]

Thanks to everyone for your input. I think I started this thread more to try and uncover some sort of...resentment or maybe ill-feelings that some folks from Europe seem to have toward Americans, for wanting to keep arms. I wanted to hear them out, because as it was left in the other thread it felt like Didymos thought we were less than Christian for thinking we have a right to firearms.

Also, on a related note, rights are involved with everything. If you think I don't have a right to a firearm you are by default advocating giving someone else the right to take my rifle away. So there's not a cut-and-dried case of rights there, really.

 

[JimJimmers]

Also, AgeofKnowledge, I LOL'd at the graph with the temperature difference. Just curious, are you in favor of allowing the citizenry to keep fully automatic weapons?

 

[jerusalem]

i'm surprised there aren't more flags flying here. i too believe in the right to bear arms. it is a fundamental right which actually is intended in part to enable the citizenry to defend itself in the event of an invasion or a government takeover. people usually fail to mention this as most people don't think it's possible or probable. but in view of current events i would think they might re-evaluate that. i personally don't own a gun and don't really want one in my house but it doesn't change the fact that i believe in my right to do so. i once saw a documentary of people in a foreign country(i know which one i just rather not say as it could be a touchy subject) having voluntarily disarming the citizenry......only to regret it later. i would hate to see that happen here. even though violence and the use of guns in violent acts has increased, it isn't the fact that people have guns that's causing it. we have always had guns but we haven't always been this violent. but that is another subject

 

[kayem77]

Fortunately, us Americans have something here called the Bill of Rights and it's not subject to the whims and feelings of kayem77 or myself. It states "the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed" and that is what is supposed to be upheld. If every household wants an AR15 then our Constitution says they can and so do I.

Mexico is overflowing with gun homicide compared to the U.S.. Mexico's National Institute of Statistics and Geography (INEGI) and National Public Safety System Executive Secretariat (SESNSP) report that Mexico has an average of 16,867 murders a year right now with 50% of them due to illegally armed criminal groups and that they increased 37% from 2006 to 2012 and continue to rise. Organizations external to the Mexican government claim the actual number may be double that. Mexico's population is much smaller but their gun homicide rate is far higher. Ironic in a nation with strict gun control laws.

The whole point of having an AR15 for self defense (if that's what you're getting one for) is to have adequate firepower to combat illegally armed criminals when they come calling. And they do. We just had the gang taskforce here where I live stop a Mexican cartel murder right up the street. Legally armed citizens stop illegally armed criminals all the time in this country. Take that away and we deteriorate into Mexico's situation.

I don't wanna sound disrespectful but jut because you have a Bill of Rights that says you can have all kinds of guns, wether it is AK47s, bazookas, or whatever, it doesn't mean that every country should have a Bill of Rights that states the same. I love Americans, but I don't think the Bill of Rights is perfect ....please noone stone me for that one . Mexico's Constitution is not perfect, and I know it, as long as noone tries to change the Bible, which is perfect, I won't get very upset if they try to change a legal document , which is unperfect, for the better.
This thread was created to give an opinion, so I gave an opinion according to my experience and observations. Mexico is not the US, and the context is completely different. Believe me, It's more than just killing druglords and eradicating criminal organizations all by yourself, the problem is much more deeper than that , not to mention that they would come and kill your loved ones if you did that.

If you read my first post carefully, you will notice that I said that I would like to be allowed to own guns, however with some restrictions and those restrictions being equally enforced on everyone. As zero said, it's all about leveling out the playing field. That's the key. That's my opinion .

 

[zeroturbulence]

They are not the same thing and the result of either is very different. There is no stalemate. One side will eventually succeed over the other. The right side is the one that keeps ready access to firearms in the hands of the law abiding citizenry for all of the very important reasons stated and many more that have not yet been. The wrong side is the one that reduces the law abiding citizenry to victim status greatly empowering violent criminals. It's really that simple.

Ay carumba! I never said they were the same thing. Once again, the stalemate is in the argument. Its obviously not going to be in the results of what the arguments are suggesting (anyone with half a brain knows that!).

You guys are talking about what happens if the suggestions are played out. I'm just talking about the fact that both arguments have the same goal in mind, so its a draw in that sense. Is that so hard to understand?

 

[Donkeyfish07]

I don't like guns myself, I've owned a few throughout the years but I still think you should be able to have one if you want to. Nobody is going to give them up and it could very possibly cause a civil war. Not to mention all purchases would move to the black market and it would go from "Some" background checks to zero background checks.