Logic vs The Bible

[Sirk]

Thank you dear Animus, but to an unbeliever this illogical. Your explanation is based on you faith in GOD, when all things are possible to HIM. Even if it was mentioned that an East wind blew and parted the sea. What a force it would have been to create a wall and people would have been blown away.

To an unbeliever, not even scientifically proven, this for them is illogical, doesn't make any common sense, to even perceive them, even scrapingly through your explanation. For them they need proof and in calculations and formulas.

And for us we have had GOD through CHRIST and the HOLY SPIRIT, who gave us that initial gift of faith, in order to believe further Heavenly spiritual teachings, whether the learned or unlearned.

i am sorry, if i have missed out on your point that you are trying to help make.

The all things are possible statement in Matthew is often taken out of context. God is not capable of "anything" as some often say. He cannot be imperfect or irrational and He certainly cannot lie. The context of that verse is Jesus is talking to the rich man and the statement is concerning salvation. God is omnipotent but He cannot do ALL things in the way this verse is often flippantly used.

 

[pastac]

Then where is the logic in the question? if ideologies are preconceived in the mind and the mind has said this is what I believe how can one then argue with logic that is illogical for you have made the mind a God in itself. You give the mind credit on understanding things that the mind just cant fathom in the state its in. The unbelieving mind still believes it is right even when wrong that is also illogical, To argue logic one first has to be logical. To refute any claims in the bible one has to deduce some sort or reasoning be it logic or otherwise to have any type of chance of proving that the bible is illogical. The bible has proven itself over hundreds of years to be logical so baby minds finding it illogical means that mind is not as mature as the bible or its philosophies. I have been taught that the carnal natured mind cant understand or comprehend spiritual things that it becomes foolishness to the natural mind thus all become illogical to that mind.

1 Corinthians 2:14 - But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know [them], because they are spiritually discerned.

Just some thoughts

For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God. For it is written, He taketh the wise in their own craftiness.

 

[pastac]

If we did into the op and look the several biblical sources we will maintain that the Bible expresses the mind of God. Conceptually it is the mind of God, or, more accurately, a part of God's mind. Paul, referring to the revelation given him, and in fact given to the Corinthians through him, is able to say, "We have the mind of Christ." I am also reminded of a scripture that says in Philippians
If there be therefore any consolation in Christ, if any comfort of love, if any fellowship of the Spirit, if any bowels and mercies,
[SUP]2 [/SUP]Fulfil ye my joy, that ye be likeminded, having the same love, being of one accord, of one mind.
[SUP]3 [/SUP]Let nothing be done through strife or vainglory; but in lowliness of mind let each esteem other better than themselves.
[SUP]4 [/SUP]Look not every man on his own things, but every man also on the things of others.
[SUP]5 [/SUP]Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
So I deduce that the Bible is the word of God, I reason that it is the mind or thoughts of God relayed through willing men. That is logical to my mind

 

[Sirk]

If we did into the op and look the several biblical sources we will maintain that the Bible expresses the mind of God. Conceptually it is the mind of God, or, more accurately, a part of God's mind. Paul, referring to the revelation given him, and in fact given to the Corinthians through him, is able to say, "We have the mind of Christ." I am also reminded of a scripture that says in Philippians
If there be therefore any consolation in Christ, if any comfort of love, if any fellowship of the Spirit, if any bowels and mercies,
[SUP]2 [/SUP]Fulfil ye my joy, that ye be likeminded, having the same love, being of one accord, of one mind.
[SUP]3 [/SUP]Let nothing be done through strife or vainglory; but in lowliness of mind let each esteem other better than themselves.
[SUP]4 [/SUP]Look not every man on his own things, but every man also on the things of others.
[SUP]5 [/SUP]Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
So I deduce that the Bible is the word of God, I reason that it is the mind or thoughts of God relayed through willing men. That is logical to my mind

I like to think that when I study and memorize scripture that I am thinking God's thoughts after Him

 

[Pozessed]

You misunderstand the entire meaning of objective morality. If it a true reality, man's laws do not change it. Look up moral ontology.

If a perfect mechanism creates something imperfect, is it a perfect mechanism?

If man is indeed perfect, like you claim... then by your own logic, everything man creates is perfect.... including war, desolation, greed, etc. Hitler, Stalin, the Crusaders are all perfect.... The man who rapes a little girl is perfect.
So... back at ya buddy, the answer here is obvious, don't think too hard.

Give me an example of an objective moral that isn't philosophical and I'll digress.

Something you're failing to grasp, is we are programmed to work according to his plan. Yes, all the things you listed and the actions of the people you listed are disgusting to OUR morals, God as you probably will agree is more forgiving and understanding than we are. His morals may consider these people to be acting as his will designed them to. If this is untrue, He is not perfect.

Does that add clarity to my perception at all?

BTW, a yes or no question shouldn't receive a paragraph of text...

 

[Pozessed]

If a sea can be parted into two walls that faced each other, in order to make a crossing, is that logic? Christian faith is centered and founded in the hearing of the Word of GOD and believe that they are true. even without proven facts or artifacts.

As it is written for our faith that;
1. "Faith comes from hearing, hearing of the Word of GOD."
2. "Trust the LORD (the Word, of GOD), with all you heart and lean not on your own understanding."

There have been logical speculations to that story actually, look up "Napolean crossing the red sea". Keep in mind though, that Biblical historians believe it was the Sea of Reeds that was crossed and not the red sea. They also don't seem to agree on where this Sea of Reeds is located, only that these seas don't exist as they did then.

 

[Pozessed]

Really?

Since people could therefore say it was illogic I'm not sure if anything will apply.

Logic indeed trumps many people in many ways all the time. Making a bad business investment. Choosing the wrong partner. Are we so in denial to think people and their logic isn't something we should be careful about?

I believe the intent of being careful of their own thoughts has to do with trusting them entirely or not. In fact, I will pull out a study here if I can find it readily. It was psychological survey that many therapists have heeded and integrated into their practices in working with people. The study says that over three quarters, that is over seventy five percent of human perception is false, or contains partial falseness. That it quite a bit. That is why we tell people going through anything difficult to not make decisions on their own.

What do successful people do? They call a friend and discuss a problem. They talk to their clergy. They call their therapist. They have a heart to heart with another human.

We've learned that the human brain is a war zone. People shouldn't attempt to navigate without outside influence. In fact, periods of isolation from outside human influence causes psychosis. I can cite there as well. People who are stranded on an island are likely to go insane (even though the threshold is different in time).

So, together we have a better chance. Yet, there is still danger.

We depend on our relationship with God and he does speak to us. We are also always at odds with influences from satan.

I should pull out some bible references but they are common enough I shouldn't need to.

Why do you think I come to places like this to discuss my faith and ask questions? I'm not a "holier than thou" person, nor do I feel "righteous". I will contest that I feel fulfilled, and that I wish no ill on anyone. That to me doesn't seem like bad traits to carry.

I also don't feel more or less intelligent than people, I have something to learn from everyone. Including people I detest and people who are not as educated as myself.

Don't presume my intentions aren't to find a way to work together, otherwise I would just be another troll trying to find some food.

 

[Pozessed]

Sophists would have a field day with you sweetie.

All things considered that may be true, fortunately I'm someone who likes games.

 

[Animus]

My sin was part of Gods plan (I assume), if his plan is perfect (which it must be if He is perfect), my sin is perfect according to his plan.
If my mental prowess is blasphemy, it is Gods fault for creating me with that flaw, which can't be true if God can not create flaws.
In my opinion, I was saved upon creation of Gods plan, because His plan is perfect as is He. If I were not perfect he could not be perfect, or at least his plan couldn't be perfect.

A perfect couch is a terrible poem. A perfect chair is a terrible movie. A perfect watch is a terrible guitar. You are saying that God is perfect and therefore everything that He creates is perfect, but a perfect what? He created people with free will, and so our will is perfectly free. We have a choice. Just because we sin, does not mean it is part of God's plan. God's plan was to give us free choice, and this is exactly what we have. If a mother wants her children to clean up after playing with toys on their own, she will say, "You need to clean up after yourselves this time, I can't always be doing it for you." If she comes back later and finds that the children are gone, and the room is a mess, it is not part of her plan, and it is not what she wanted, but it is something that she has allowed to happen because she wanted to teach the kids to clean up after themselves. You can see how something can be in accordance with your will in one way, but not in another. There is a logical necessity in this that cannot be avoided. Either God controls us like puppets, and therefore makes us extensions of himself like our arms and legs are extensions of us, or he makes us truly free, with the risk that we don't do what he wants us to do. God chose to make us free. Our sin is not part of God's plan, but it is a logical necessity that we have the freedom to choose sin in order for us to be truly free.

But God knew that we would sin, and so just as I can reason with a man and try to get him to do good, God can reason with us to try to get us to do good, as one free agent reasons with another. However, God uses the whole of reality to show us why evil is bad, and to try to get us to do good.

 

[Atwood]

"I believe God is capable of saving me without the need of a savior."

On the face of it that is a remarkable statement, like saying someone could paint a house without a painter.

The Bible is clear that there is only one Savior, YHWH.
Also it is clear that the Lord Jesus is YHWH (Romans 10:13; Joel 2).

 

[Pozessed]

A perfect couch is a terrible poem. A perfect chair is a terrible movie. A perfect watch is a terrible guitar. You are saying that God is perfect and therefore everything that He creates is perfect, but a perfect what? He created people with free will, and so our will is perfectly free. We have a choice. Just because we sin, does not mean it is part of God's plan. God's plan was to give us free choice, and this is exactly what we have. If a mother wants her children to clean up after playing with toys on their own, she will say, "You need to clean up after yourselves this time, I can't always be doing it for you." If she comes back later and finds that the children are gone, and the room is a mess, it is not part of her plan, and it is not what she wanted, but it is something that she has allowed to happen because she wanted to teach the kids to clean up after themselves. You can see how something can be in accordance with your will in one way, but not in another. There is a logical necessity in this that cannot be avoided. Either God controls us like puppets, and therefore makes us extensions of himself like our arms and legs are extensions of us, or he makes us truly free, with the risk that we don't do what he wants us to do. God chose to make us free. Our sin is not part of God's plan, but it is a logical necessity that we have the freedom to choose sin in order for us to be truly free.

But God knew that we would sin, and so just as I can reason with a man and try to get him to do good, God can reason with us to try to get us to do good, as one free agent reasons with another. However, God uses the whole of reality to show us why evil is bad, and to try to get us to do good.

If the emboldened is true, God can not be perfect, even if he gave us perfect free will. To create anything perfectly as a perfect thing must do, it must be consistently perfect or there is no perfection.

Any imperfection contradicts perfection.

Though, I must say, I never heard it put as "perfect free will" kudos on that.

 

[faroukfarouk]

"I believe God is capable of saving me without the need of a savior."

On the face of it that is a remarkable statement, like saying someone could paint a house without a painter.

The Bible is clear that there is only one Savior, YHWH.
Also it is clear that the Lord Jesus is YHWH (Romans 10:13; Joel 2).

Well, exactly.

 

[Pozessed]

"I believe God is capable of saving me without the need of a savior."

On the face of it that is a remarkable statement, like saying someone could paint a house without a painter.

The Bible is clear that there is only one Savior, YHWH.
Also it is clear that the Lord Jesus is YHWH (Romans 10:13; Joel 2).

Logic says, God can do what He wills.

 

[Atwood]

If a sea can be parted into two walls that faced each other, in order to make a crossing, is that logic? Christian faith is centered and founded in the hearing of the Word of GOD and believe that they are true. even without proven facts or artifacts.

As it is written for our faith that;
1. "Faith comes from hearing, hearing of the Word of GOD."
2. "Trust the LORD (the Word, of GOD), with all you heart and lean not on your own understanding."

The if statement was made above: "If a sea can be parted into two walls that faced each other, in order to make a crossing, is that logic?"

To make logic, you need a statement of this sort, "If a sea can be parted into two walls, then it follows that _____."
The statement assumes that the sea can be parted. But if what you mean to say is that it is illogical for a sea to be parted into two walls then that claim requires proof, which I don't see provided.

We could do some logic like this:

1) Axiom 1: the God of the Bible exists.
2) Axiom 2: the Bible is the Word of God.
3) Observation: the God of the Bible cannot lie.
4) Observation: The Bible says that the sea parted into two walls.
Conclusion: The sea parted into two walls.
QED

Come and let us reason together says the Lord.

 

[posthuman]

Logic says, God can do what He wills.

and God says,

See now that I alone am He; there is no God but Me.
I bring death and I give life;
I wound and I heal.
No one can rescue anyone from My hand.
(Deuteronomy 32:39)

God is great! He has made an immovable object - death - and has also moved it!

 

[posthuman]

Pozessed, forgive me for being rude earlier. it's been bothering me ever since.
i only wanted to be clear that if God contradicts even the greatest philosopher or the most profound human logic or wisdom, i trust God, whether it makes sense to my own feeble mind or not -- and i treated you like an enemy.
i'm sorry.

 

[Pozessed]

Pozessed, forgive me for being rude earlier. it's been bothering me ever since.
i only wanted to be clear that if God contradicts even the greatest philosopher or the most profound human logic or wisdom, i trust God, whether it makes sense to my own feeble mind or not -- and i treated you like an enemy.
i'm sorry.

That's okay, I wasn't upset. Just disappointed. I forgive you. I hope my insights haven't been to insulting to what you believe, I know hearing other peoples insights can seem offensive when they don't align with your own.

 

[Animus]

If the emboldened is true, God can not be perfect, even if he gave us perfect free will. To create anything perfectly as a perfect thing must do, it must be consistently perfect or there is no perfection.

Any imperfection contradicts perfection.

Though, I must say, I never heard it put as "perfect free will" kudos on that.

I disagree. As I have stated, God cannot escape logical necessities, in fact, He is one. He created creatures with free will, and he did this perfectly. But from there on it is our own wills that do the evil, not God's. The whole point of my saying, "A perfect couch is a terrible poem" is that I think you are assuming that God was trying to create something other than what He was trying to create, and you are then judging a couch by how well it rhymes. God's plan was not to create people that could only do good, but to create people that could choose to do good. This was the plan, and there are logically only two outcomes, that a creature chooses good, or evil. God prefers that the creatures choose good, but the plan itself does not involve the creatures do good or evil, because to plan for this would be to take away their free will. God cannot make 1+1=3, and in the same way he cannot give us free will and force us to do good.

Again, it was God's plan to make us perfectly free, but not perfectly good, for if He wanted to make us perfectly good, He would have to force us, making us extensions of himself, and therefore taking away our free will.

 

[MidniteWelder]

My sin was part of Gods plan (I assume), if his plan is perfect (which it must be if He is perfect), my sin is perfect according to his plan.
If my mental prowess is blasphemy, it is Gods fault for creating me with that flaw, which can't be true if God can not create flaws.
In my opinion, I was saved upon creation of Gods plan, because His plan is perfect as is He. If I were not perfect he could not be perfect, or at least his plan couldn't be perfect.

Let us suggest a car was created perfect...perfect for one specific purpose.
Is it the fault of the designer if a flaw introduces itself in the mechanism through either:
1. improper operation outside of it's intended design ?
2. or also by improper maintenance ?

Or rather is it the "operators fault" for poor operation and maintenance on the perfect mechanism.
We are the operator of our vessel...(fleshly bodies) God gave us this authority and domain as well as guidelines, rules and principles and laws to abide by within our own intended use.

We are the operator of this vessel, God is the creator if this vessel.
Who's fault is it for improper operation.
Stop drinking water...you dehydrate and die
Is this somehow a perceived inherent flaw introduced by the creator because if this requirement?
Or is it the fault of the operator for not adhering to required maintenance and simply drink water when needed.
IE: don't put oil in your engine it dies
taking this principle a step further to say you don't take an F-1 ferrari and use it as a stadium truck.
One may say "hey the creator created this Ferrari imperfect...it broke when I tried to Jump it. psh. The creator must be imperfect because it's perfect creation didn't last forever and hold up to what IIIIIIII wanted to use it for"
And the creator says..."yeah, I told you there was a narrow path to stay on, did you listen?"
Are we made to do drugs, drink in excess, use our bodies for destructive purposes, to dabble in sin and see how much of it we can get away with without detrimental consequence?
No.
Where does any flaw lay?
Could any flaw more plausibly be introduced by a result of misinformed operators using the vessel outside intended purposes?

Killing babies was objective law at one point...

If a perfect mechanism creates something imperfect, is it a perfect mechanism? The answer here is obvious, don't think to hard.

God may have very well created the first human perfect
It is also written that Satan was created perfect, until............something happened...see if you can find out what?
Yet Satan has already been judged and his Fate is sealed and our fate remains open dependent upon our choices while here on earth.

Accepting mediocrity and excusing perfection.
(laziness, complacency, looking for the easy path, calling it good enough etc)
How often do we see humans do this?
Worse, how often do we see humans make excuses to remain this way.
So a question remains...if both beings were at first created perfect (at first meaning now both being's are imperfect and flawed) then what could be the difference between satan's and our own choices that allows God's mercy to save only us.

It is a given that a prerequisite choice must be made in order for a person to be saved.
Could it be the fact that even if there are flaws apparent in us...we still choose God's will over our own and serve Christ as our Lord instead of ourselves.

 

[Pozessed]

I disagree. As I have stated, God cannot escape logical necessities, in fact, He is one. He created creatures with free will, and he did this perfectly. But from there on it is our own wills that do the evil, not God's. The whole point of my saying, "A perfect couch is a terrible poem" is that I think you are assuming that God was trying to create something other than what He was trying to create, and you are then judging a couch by how well it rhymes. God's plan was not to create people that could only do good, but to create people that could choose to do good. This was the plan, and there are logically only two outcomes, that a creature chooses good, or evil. God prefers that the creatures choose good, but the plan itself does not involve the creatures do good or evil, because to plan for this would be to take away their free will. God cannot make 1+1=3, and in the same way he cannot give us free will and force us to do good.

Again, it was God's plan to make us perfectly free, but not perfectly good, for if He wanted to make us perfectly good, He would have to force us, making us extensions of himself, and therefore taking away our free will.

Aside from your presumption of how I deduce Gods will, I agree with you to a degree.
In response to the emboldened statement.
There actually is a logical and objective answer to why there is good and bad that you don't specify. We learn from both good and bad outcomes. If life were all good we wouldn't know bad, we would only understand one part of our universe. If we didn't know bad, we wouldn't know God is great and life is wonderful. I'm not suggesting bad things should be welcomed, but they are necessary if His plan was to make perfect creatures to dwell in this universe, which He has done.