looking for help reconciling the Sabbath with common observation?

[JohnDB]

But what about when they made Saturday become Sunday?

It's not like Constangine didnt just mess around with the Calendar and made Sunday a weekend day closing all banks....

He also made Saturday, Sunday and turned Frinday into Saturday....etc etc etc....

The Jews noticed this recently about 20 years ago with their star charts and noticed things do not line up.....
The Levitical council once made the mistake of opening the floor to any new business....which then this very subject was raised.
Which closed the the meeting....because they dont want to talk about it.
Nothing like getting the day wrong for 1700 years....because if the Sabbath day was always in reality Sunday......ooooopppps.

 

[Davidstarr]

You seem to have missed my point, so I will repeat it again. I don't deny that Jesus taught about the Sabbath. I deny that Jesus taught his disciples to keep the Sabbath. Their parents taught them to keep the Sabbath. Keeping the Sabbath day is not among the things that Jesus wanted his apostles to teach future disciples. Jesus wanted his apostles to teach the disciples HIS word such as the fact that the Sabbath was made for man, the Son of Man is Lord of the Sabbath.

Accordingly, even though Gentiles are not obligated to rest every seventh day, they are obligated to remember that the Sabbath was made for man, and that Jesus is Lord of the Sabbath.

Baloney.

Jesus gave the 10 commandments from the top of Mt. Sinai to all of His people. Then wrote them down on stone with His own finger.

Why teach a high school student what he/she already learned in 1st grade?
Jesus showed by example that He kept the sabbath day (Luke 4:16) and even showed how it should be kept even in opposition to the teachings of the priests of His time.
But He did not have to teach what was already known.
He expanded on the meanings of the commands "thou shalt not kill" and "thou shalt not commit adultery" by internalizing those commands and showing they began in the heart (which of course is the 10th commandment).
But He did not have to TEACH them murder or adultery was wrong. They already knew.

Tel me this; what were Adam and Eve's first sins BEFORE they actually ate the forbidden fruit? The bible tells us if you have the eyes to see and the ears to hear.

 

[Davidstarr]

But what about when they made Saturday become Sunday?

It's not like Constangine didnt just mess around with the Calendar and made Sunday a weekend day closing all banks....

He also made Saturday, Sunday and turned Frinday into Saturday....etc etc etc....

The Jews noticed this recently about 20 years ago with their star charts and noticed things do not line up.....
The Levitical council once made the mistake of opening the floor to any new business....which then this very subject was raised.
Which closed the the meeting....because they dont want to talk about it.
Nothing like getting the day wrong for 1700 years....because if the Sabbath day was always in reality Sunday......ooooopppps.

If Sunday is the 7th day sabbath then Monday has to be the 1st day of the week.
All 4 gospels (twice in the book of John) say Jesus rose on the 1st day of the week.
You think that was on Monday?

Please show what historical evidence you have that Saturday became Sunday, Friday became Saturday, etc.
Certainly nothing in scripture tells us this.
Do you think people will blindly believe what you say when you present no evidence?

 

[OMC]

Baloney.

Jesus gave the 10 commandments from the top of Mt. Sinai to all of His people. Then wrote them down on stone with His own finger.

Why teach a high school student what he/she already learned in 1st grade?
Jesus showed by example that He kept the sabbath day (Luke 4:16) and even showed how it should be kept even in opposition to the teachings of the priests of His time.
But He did not have to teach what was already known.
He expanded on the meanings of the commands "thou shalt not kill" and "thou shalt not commit adultery" by internalizing those commands and showing they began in the heart (which of course is the 10th commandment).
But He did not have to TEACH them murder or adultery was wrong. They already knew.

Tel me this; what were Adam and Eve's first sins BEFORE they actually ate the forbidden fruit? The bible tells us if you have the eyes to see and the ears to hear.

A New‑Covenant believer “follows” Old‑Covenant law only in the sense the law’s righteousness is fulfilled in him, not in the sense the Mosaic code remains binding; the Old Covenant was a national treaty with Israel, now declared obsolete (Heb 8:13), but its moral core reflects God’s character, so the believer keeps its substance through the Spirit‑written law on the heart rather than through Torah observance, meaning circumcision, food laws, Sabbaths, sacrifices, priesthood, and temple regulations are shadows fulfilled in Christ, while the ethical reality they pointed to is lived out through union with Him, so the New Covenant believer does not obey the Old Covenant as covenant, but fulfills its telos through Christic transformation. That's scripture. That's the new covenant. Not a world view just scripture.

 

[2Christ]

You seem to have missed my point, so I will repeat it again. I don't deny that Jesus taught about the Sabbath. I deny that Jesus taught his disciples to keep the Sabbath. Their parents taught them to keep the Sabbath. Keeping the Sabbath day is not among the things that Jesus wanted his apostles to teach future disciples. Jesus wanted his apostles to teach the disciples HIS word such as the fact that the Sabbath was made for man, the Son of Man is Lord of the Sabbath.

Accordingly, even though Gentiles are not obligated to rest every seventh day, they are obligated to remember that the Sabbath was made for man, and that Jesus is Lord of the Sabbath.

I know the point you are trying to make I did not miss it i tried to show you something you missed.

Then, why do you say"Keeping the Sabbath day is not among the things that Jesus wanted his apostles to teach future disciples." and I say to you, prove it! you speculate here, however we have scripture that say the contrary.

Since Jesus sent the his disciples to the gentiles (the great commission) and that Jesus spent most of his ministry teaching about the Ten Commandments for which the sabbath is included, why would they not teach about the sabbath if Jesus told them to teach ALL he did and said?

Moreover, does the fact Jesus said the sabbath was made for man removes it? on the contrary is confirms it!

where did you get this from? "Accordingly, even though Gentiles are not obligated to rest every seventh day," i know no texts that account for this.

you wrote also:"Accordingly, even though Gentiles are not obligated to rest every seventh day," again show me where you got this. its not in scripture. if you refer to Paul, please before answering check very carefully what sabbath(s) Paul was referring to, the ONE mentioned in the Ten Commandments of the ONES throughout the Mosaic Laws given by Moses?

May ask you why you reject the sabbath when God said clearly;

Exo 20:8 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.

Exo 20:9 Six days shalt thou labor, and do all thy work;

Exo 20:10 but the seventh day is a sabbath unto Jehovah thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy man-servant, nor thy maid-servant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:

Exo 20:11 for in six days Jehovah made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore Jehovah blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

And what about Jesus saying : Mat 19:17 And he said unto him, Why askest thou me concerning that which is good? One there is who is good: but if thou wouldest enter into life, keep the commandments.

and again;
Jhn 14:15 If ye love me, ye will keep my commandments.

Jhn 14:16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may be with you for ever,

Jhn 14:17 even the Spirit of truth: whom the world cannot receive; for it beholdeth him not, neither knoweth him: ye know him; for he abideth with you, and shall be in you.

 

[OMC]

Then, why do you say"Keeping the Sabbath day is not among the things that Jesus wanted his apostles to teach future disciples." and I say to you, prove it! you speculate here, however we have scripture that say the contrary

A New‑Covenant believer isn’t commanded to keep the Sabbath because Jesus never gave a Sabbath command to His disciples, and the apostles — when deciding exactly what Gentile believers must obey — did not include the Sabbath, while the only explicit NT teaching on the subject says Sabbaths are shadows and esteeming one day over another is optional; so proving it is simple: show where Jesus commands Sabbath‑keeping for the Church, show where the apostles teach it to Gentile converts, or show where Acts 15 includes it — and since none of those exist, the NT itself proves the Sabbath is not part of the obedience package Jesus told His apostles to pass on

 

[Delvianna]

That's what I mean.
There are scores of different English translations and they don't agree on everything they say.

Paraphrasing comes from human assumptions of what someone else thinks it should mean. So you get quite a few English versions based almost solely on the denominational beliefs of the translators.

Quoting word for word from the original languages is a totally different matter. It is the only way to know you got the text right even if you don't always understand the meaning.
Somewhere else in the bible it will explain itself.
Always does.

I would actually prefer an English version that includes possible alternate translations of the original Greek and Hebrew because I know many words have multiple meanings.
But so far the best I have found is a KJV study bible with margins for some words and cross references to other verses.

Every time I find verses that seem to conflict each other in what they say I know somewhere along the line I am misunderstanding something or making too many unwarranted assumptions.
Then I go back to the original languages and add in alternate translations of words.
PLUS searching the bible for more information on whatever subject is under consideration.

I know KJV is very popular, but I like Complete Jewish Bible (CJB) or The Scriptures by Institute for Scripture Research. Both are word for word translations. I just find the word choices for translations are more closer than KJV is. And I like how they keep the original name instead of just putting "God". Because even in some verses the name that's used alters, like from YHWH to Adonai but in english you'll just see "God" instead.

 

[Churchgoer]

But what about when they made Saturday become Sunday?

It's not like Constangine didnt just mess around with the Calendar and made Sunday a weekend day closing all banks....

He also made Saturday, Sunday and turned Frinday into Saturday....etc etc etc....

The Jews noticed this recently about 20 years ago with their star charts and noticed things do not line up.....
The Levitical council once made the mistake of opening the floor to any new business....which then this very subject was raised.
Which closed the the meeting....because they dont want to talk about it.
Nothing like getting the day wrong for 1700 years....because if the Sabbath day was always in reality Sunday......ooooopppps.

This is what I tried to say also.
Besides that, no record showing 7 day cycle until manna time.
Isn't that interesting?

 

[JohnDB]

If Sunday is the 7th day sabbath then Monday has to be the 1st day of the week.
All 4 gospels (twice in the book of John) say Jesus rose on the 1st day of the week.
You think that was on Monday?

Please show what historical evidence you have that Saturday became Sunday, Friday became Saturday, etc.
Certainly nothing in scripture tells us this.
Do you think people will blindly believe what you say when you present no evidence?

It's from 1,700 years ago....

Saturday was declared to be Sunday....
Christians didn't care....a day is a day....regardless of what it's called.

BUT
It got everyone on a similar schedule for work and productivity increased which is what Constantine and his advisors were after.


This isn't exactly ground breaking new news....kinda well known for historians familiar with the time period.

Where the real problems comes in is with someone with a religion to promote that flies in the face of truth....

We have 2 freaking commandments....not ten but two.

Thats it....ALL the LAW and prophets hangs off those TWO commandments.
These two commandments require a heart condition....not a legalistic functionality.

If this heart condition of Agape Love is not your primary focus you are not doing Christianity correctly. Anything else is something else and NOT CHRISTIANITY.

Love God
Love your neighbor as yourself.

Thats it.
If you have not accomplished those two perfectly then you are unqualified to educate anyone about any other aspect of Christianity. Because those two LAWS come before anything else.
Take your arguments up with Jesus because I'm almost directly quoting his words here but definitely all his intent.

 

[Churchgoer]

I know KJV is very popular, but I like Complete Jewish Bible (CJB) or The Scriptures by Institute for Scripture Research. Both are word for word translations. I just find the word choices for translations are more closer than KJV is. And I like how they keep the original name instead of just putting "God". Because even in some verses the name that's used alters, like from YHWH to Adonai but in english you'll just see "God" instead.

This i agree. I love YHVH.
Bible should keep this name

 

[JohnDB]

I know KJV is very popular, but I like Complete Jewish Bible (CJB) or The Scriptures by Institute for Scripture Research. Both are word for word translations. I just find the word choices for translations are more closer than KJV is. And I like how they keep the original name instead of just putting "God". Because even in some verses the name that's used alters, like from YHWH to Adonai but in english you'll just see "God" instead.

The ISR always throws me for a loop with Jesus's name printed in original language....and i have to look twice to make sure it's not something else like God's name....

 

[Delvianna]

The ISR always throws me for a loop with Jesus's name printed in original language....and i have to look twice to make sure it's not something else like God's name....

Yeah, here's an example from The Scriptures:

Personally, I'd rather have that if I'm honest.

 

[Churchgoer]

Yeah, here's an example from The Scriptures:
View attachment 295876
Personally, I'd rather have that if I'm honest.

Love it !!!
YHVH is Jesus, or we can say trinity 3 in 1. Behold nail, behold arm.
Jesus is the beginning and end, the aleph tav.

 

[Delvianna]

Love it !!!
YHVH is Jesus, or we can say trinity 3 in 1. Behold nail, behold arm.
Jesus is the beginning and end, the aleph tav.

While I don't believe in the trinity, my belief is duality. The Holy Spirit is The Father, I do agree with the Hebrew link to Jesus.

 

[Churchgoer]

While I don't believe in the trinity, my belief is duality. The Holy Spirit is The Father, I do agree with the Hebrew link to Jesus.

Interesting.
If I may ask, what denomination is your belief?

 

[Delvianna]

Interesting.
If I may ask, what denomination is your belief?

I'm Messianic. Although I had that belief before I changed to Messianic. I grew up non-denominational. There's people in my congregation that are trinitarian, so I don't think it's a denominational thing.

 

[Churchgoer]

I'm Messianic. Although I had that belief before I changed to Messianic. I grew up non-denominational. There's people in my congregation that are trinitarian, so I don't think it's a denominational thing.

We are the temple of God now. Holy spirit dwell in us. Do you agree on this?

I am not totally in agreement with messianic. They believe to set up another earthly temple, and looking for red heifer still? Of course this impression can be wrong.

 

[Delvianna]

We are the temple of God now. Holy spirit dwell in us. Do you agree on this?

I do, but both Father and Son dwell in spirit since that is what Jesus said (John 14:23), there isn't another being listed. I mean, there's a lot of reasons why I believe duality, but that's just 1 instance.

I am not totally in agreement with messianic. They believe to set up another earthly temple, and looking for red heifer still? Of course this impression can be wrong.

That's incorrect. That's Orthodox. We believe our earthly Temple will be set up by Christ himself at the 2nd coming. So we aren't waiting for a red heifer or anything else... although we do believe the Orthodox will build a new temple since it seems to be the case from Daniels prophecy.

 

[CS1]

The claim that the Sabbath was only an Old Covenant institution fails when Scripture's timeline is examined. The Sabbath was not introduced at Sinai. It appears before Israel existed as a nation...Genesis 2:2–3 states: "God blessed the seventh day and made it holy, because on it He rested from all the work of creating that He had done." The Sabbath is rooted in creation itself, not merely the Mosaic covenant...Then, when the Ten Commandments were given, the 4th commandment does not say "create a new Sabbath." It says: "REMEMBER the Sabbath day by keeping it holy." — Exodus 20:8 To remember something means it was already established and known...The commandment connects directly back to creation: "For in six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth... but He rested on the seventh day. Therefore the LORD blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy." — Exodus 20:11...So the biblical sequence is: Creation → Sabbath established → Israel commanded to remember → Sabbath observed. The question is not whether the Sabbath existed under the Old Covenant. It clearly did...The question is whether something established by God at creation and included in the moral law is abolished simply because the Old Covenant reached fulfillment. To also note that marriage as well was also included in the mosaic laws and establish in the days of creation but yet we do not say that marriage is fullfilled. We cant be isolating the Sabbath alone. Jesus said: "The Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath." — Mark 2:27...Notice He did not say the Sabbath was made only for Israel. The foundation of the Sabbath is creation, the command is remembrance, and its purpose predates Sinai. In the book of Revelations 1:10 “I was in the spirit in the Lord’s day” Jesus said he is Lord over the sabbath day and John is busy addressing Jesus himself when he is talking about his experience on the Lord’s day, the Lord’s day is the day Jesus is Lord over which as he said is the sabbath day thus the Lord’s day is Sabbath.

The Lord's Day or Day of the lord in the book of Revelation contextually does also address end times.
“the Day of the Lord” — a prophetic term for the time of God’s judgment and Christ’s return (Isaiah 13:6; Joel 1:15; Amos 5:18)

 

[Roger316]

Then, why do you say"Keeping the Sabbath day is not among the things that Jesus wanted his apostles to teach future disciples." and I say to you, prove it! you speculate here, however we have scripture that say the contrary.

It is up to you to prove he did. I say there is no Bible verse that records Jesus's command to keep the Sabbath. It isn't there. If I am wrong I want to know it. So don't hesitate to point it out. I already acknowledged that Jesus spoke commentary about the Sabbath. This is without controversy. But Jesus never commanded anyone to keep the Seventh day Holy.