LORDSHIP SALVATION

[P1LGR1M]

While this topic seems to be new here, I have seen it hotly debated elsewhere which is where I actually learned about it

These sources name the book, page etc...now you can't do that if you are making things up...it's far too easy to refute lies like that...I am surpised that folks here seem to be vague on the concept as this is actually a teaching that is still hotly debated

Dr. MacArthur’s teaching on the one nature of the believer is related to his teaching on Lordship. If the believer really only has one nature, the new nature in Christ [as MacArthur teaches in The MacArthur N.T. Commentary--Ephesians, p. 164], then we would expect such a person to be totally surrendered to the Lordship of Christ. In the words of Dr. MacArthur: "Listen! No one who is saved will fail to repent, will fail to submit or fail to obey...True faith results in an absolutely and totally transformed life" (Tape GC 90-21 on Lordship). Would we not expect this from a person who does not have an old nature?
Dr. MacArthur’s position on Lordship Salvation has been made very clear in his published book, THE GOSPEL ACCORDING TO JESUS. He has also made statements in some of his other published writings and tapes that relate to this subject, some of which are quoted below:
"The Greek word translated 'belief' is not referring merely to intellectual attainment or mental acquiescence but a wholehearted acceptance of everything that is implied in the claims of Christ. You need to believe that Jesus is God and that He died for your sins, committing your whole life to Him in sacrifice and serving Him as Lord." (Assurance of Victory--1 John 5, Moody Press, p.12).
"Submission to the will of God, to Christ’s lordship, and to the guiding of the Spirit is an essential, not an optional, part of saving faith" (EPHESIANS, p. 249).
"Saving faith is a placing of oneself totally in submission to the Lord Jesus Christ" (Romans 1-8, p. 205).


John MacArthur's Position on Lordship Salvation

Still no quote of MacArthur himself teaching works-based salvation.


God bless.

 

[ember]

thanks to those who checked out the links and found them to be working fine

appreciate it!

 

[pwrnJC]

oops...what about the next sentence..."if Thou shalt believe and CONFESS with thy mouth the Lord JESUS, thou shalt be saved". Even satan and his demons BELIEVE totally in JESUS CHRIST. They tremble at the mere name of JESUS CHRIST and will instantly take flight and leave. However, they do NOT confess JESUS CHRIST as Savior, to them or anyone else. Ah, therein lies the issue here....We have to confess to this world that JESUS CHRIST is our Lord and Savior...otherwise, where is the witness? When we confess something, we better be able to 'back it up' and stand on the TRUTH. With NO confession and no noticeable change or new direction from our 'old' selves, we are NO GOOD to JESUS CHRIST.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Taken from Grace Community Church Website:

Jesus Is Lord and Savior
Romans 10:9 says, ìIf you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you shall be saved. Even though God's justice demands death for sin, His love has provided a Savior who paid the penalty and died for sinners (1 Peter 3:18). Christ's death satisfied the demands of God's justice, and Christ's perfect life satisfied the demands of God's holiness (2 Corinthians 5:21), thereby enabling Him to forgive and save those who place their faith in Him (Romans 3:26).

Here I agree 100 %


The Character of Saving Faith
True faith is always accompanied by repentance from sin. Repentance is agreeing with God that you are sinful, confessing your sins to Him, and making a conscious choice to turn from sin (Luke 13:3, 5; 1 Thessalonians 1:9), pursue Christ (Matthew 11: 28-30; John 17:3), and obey Him (1 John 2:3). It isn't enough to believe certain facts about Christ. Even Satan and his demons believe in the true God (James 2:19), but they don't love and obey Him. True saving faith always responds in obedience (Ephesians 2:10).

Here is where we get iffy

Why did he even have to add this, All this can do is confuse poeple. How good is good enough? How much obedience needs to be obeyed to be of pure faith and true repentance.

No wonder people jumped on him.. It is like he is saying, we are saved by faith, But then we are under law.

Can a person even know he is saved? By this there would be no way.. For what happens if one falls away and becomes a prodigal son? Is he still saved, or did he forfiet his lordship?

 

[P1LGR1M]

It seems to me that if someone is copy/pasting from MacArthur' site, the results will be a very whitewashed version

A critique is actually what is needed ... one can buy his book I guess, but scholars have rebutted his teachings many times over

That's like saying it is a bad idea to address Catholic Doctrine by actually looking at their doctrine.

All you can do is find people who, like you, have a beef with MacArthur because his teaching casts their own doctrine into question.

You cannot even admit that you are bearing false witness in regards to his soteriological views because he is, your words...a rabid cessationist. lol

Anyone can find resources to vilify people, but it is going to be an altogether different matter to vilify MacArthur as a works-based teacher.

That is false witness and as I said early on, shows a complete ignorance of MacArthur's teachings.

You don't see me going around vilifying Dr. Michael Brown because I have heard him on the radio, do you? I have talked with Dr. Brown, tried to engage him in discussion, and he refuses to let any serious discussion go on his program. It is carefully controlled.

And because I don't let his doctrinal error make it a point that I think I need to vilify him, I am content to allow that he is a brother in Christ, simply one biased by his own views. His response to MacArthur's Strange Fire is a stark contrast to what you are doing though. He conducts himself in a Christian manner, and is decent in his address of what he in turns feels is error on MacArthur's part.

But to say MacArthur is works-based is just absurd.


God bless.

 

[P1LGR1M]

Taken from Grace Community Church Website:

Jesus Is Lord and Savior
Romans 10:9 says, ìIf you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you shall be saved. Even though God's justice demands death for sin, His love has provided a Savior who paid the penalty and died for sinners (1 Peter 3:18). Christ's death satisfied the demands of God's justice, and Christ's perfect life satisfied the demands of God's holiness (2 Corinthians 5:21), thereby enabling Him to forgive and save those who place their faith in Him (Romans 3:26).

Here I agree 100 %


The Character of Saving Faith
True faith is always accompanied by repentance from sin. Repentance is agreeing with God that you are sinful, confessing your sins to Him, and making a conscious choice to turn from sin (Luke 13:3, 5; 1 Thessalonians 1:9), pursue Christ (Matthew 11: 28-30; John 17:3), and obey Him (1 John 2:3). It isn't enough to believe certain facts about Christ. Even Satan and his demons believe in the true God (James 2:19), but they don't love and obey Him. True saving faith always responds in obedience (Ephesians 2:10).

Here is where we get iffy

Why did he even have to add this, All this can do is confuse poeple. How good is good enough? How much obedience needs to be obeyed to be of pure faith and true repentance.

No wonder people jumped on him.. It is like he is saying, we are saved by faith, But then we are under law.

Can a person even know he is saved? By this there would be no way.. For what happens if one falls away and becomes a prodigal son? Is he still saved, or did he forfiet his lordship?

Seriously?

lol

How do you arrive at that conclusion?


The Character of Saving Faith
Truefaith is always accompanied by repentance from sin.


Do you disagree with that?



Repentance is agreeing with God that you are sinful, confessing your sins to Him,


Do you disagree with that?


and making a conscious choice to turn from sin (Luke 13:3, 5; 1 Thessalonians 1:9),


Do you disagree with that?


pursue Christ (Matthew 11: 28-30; John 17:3),


Do you disagree with that?



and obey Him (1 John 2:3).


Do you disagree with that?


And what in this...

It isn't enough to believe certain facts about Christ. Even Satan and his demons believe in the true God (James 2:19), but they don't love and obey Him. True saving faith always responds in obedience (Ephesians 2:10).


...do you disagree with?

What in this is teaching salvation by works?

Where you are making a mistake is not understanding that in view is evidence of true faith, not the means of salvation.

That is mentioned here:


Jesus Is Lord and Savior
Romans 10:9 says, ìIf you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you shall be saved. Even though God's justice demands death for sin, His love has provided a Savior who paid the penalty and died for sinners (1 Peter 3:18). Christ's death satisfied the demands of God's justice, and Christ's perfect life satisfied the demands of God's holiness (2 Corinthians 5:21), thereby enabling Him to forgive and save those who place their faith in Him(Romans 3:26).


Note the title of the statement:

The Character of Saving Faith

Not...the means of saving faith.

And that is the central issue of the Lordship Salvation Controversy, which does not address the means of salvation, it addresses the character of those saved, and whether we can, Biblically speaking, see that Scripture teaches that very thing.

On one side is easy-believism, and on the other is recognition that faith is accompanied by evidences of genuine profession. Those cautions are given in Scripture for the express purpose that people know in no uncertain terms that nominal Christianity should be questioned.

And that's it for the day, I hope. Have to get going but you guys really make this fun, lol




God bless.

 

[P1LGR1M]

It seems to me that if someone is copy/pasting from MacArthur' site, the results will be a very whitewashed version

A critique is actually what is needed ... one can buy his book I guess, but scholars have rebutted his teachings many times over

Name one "Scholar" that has "rebutted" John MacArthur.

lol

And when are you going to justify the charges you have levied and actually quote MacArthur?

You can't.

That you can vilify someone and falsely accuse them when you have no clue as to what they even teach is reprehensible.

Quote MacArthur and justify yourself. Show him teaching Works-Based Salvation.


God bless.

 

[P1LGR1M]

I'll leave you guys with a quote:


When people ask me, “What’s the biggest problem in the church?” I always say the same thing: The absence of discernment. That is the biggest problem in the church because if you can’t discern the truth with the Word of God in your hand, with the Bible in your hand, if you can’t discern the truth, you can die of 1,000 heresies. It’s like having spiritual AIDS. People who have a deficient immune system can die of 1,000 illnesses. The church can die of 1,000 heresies if it can’t exercise discernment. This is always the issue.

And part of the responsibility of ministry is the positive side to instruct with great patience, as Paul said to Timothy. But the other side is to reprove, rebuke, and exhort, and use the Word of God to do that. And to exercise discernment is at the very heart of Christian living because Christian living is a reflection of Christian thinking, and Christian thinking must be attached to sound doctrine, and that’s where discernment begins.



God bless.

 

[pwrnJC]

Agreed! Discernment is one of those 9 spiritual gifts listed in chapter 12 of 1st Corinthians. We can seek and ask for those gifts if we don't presently have or use them, indeed.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Seriously?

lol

How do you arrive at that conclusion?

By the word of God

How can we know using what John stated is required, anyone is saved? What is the cut off??

The bible does not say repent of sin and change your life then you will be saved, It says repent and let me save you, then I WILL CHANGE YOUR LIFE.. (do you trust me?)

The Character of Saving Faith
Truefaith is always accompanied by repentance from sin.

Wrong.. That is not true at all. Thats adding works to the cross.

True faith means I trust God to keep his promise of eternal life (vs mere belief maybe he will do it, or I may believe maybe I may need saved)

Do you disagree with that?

Yes I do. I have no capacity to do this as a non believer.
I am still in the flesh remember,

Repentance is agreeing with God that you are sinful, confessing your sins to Him, Do you disagree with that?

No, repentance is agreeing with God that I can not save myself, Every person knows they are a sinner, thats why no one will have an excuse (see romans 1 not only do they know they are a sinner they know they are rightfully judged..

Rom 1: [SUP]32 [/SUP]who, knowing the righteous judgment of God, that those who practice such things are deserving of death, not only do the same but also approve of those who practice them.
so how can you repent (change my mind) about being a sinner, and rightly judged, when I ALREADY KNOW??

see what happens when you take a word and give it a religious interpretation. YOU SCREW IT ALL UP!!

and making a conscious choice to turn from sin (Luke 13:3, 5; 1 Thessalonians 1:9),

How can I turn from sin when I am in the flesh, and have no power to do anything? Now your adding law and turning from sin a requirement to be saved, and your going to tell me you do not teach works??

Your giving me power I do nto have, ONLY GOD CAN DO THAT WORK IN ME..

WHAT???????????

pursue Christ (Matthew 11: 28-30; John 17:3),

hmm.. Well if I did not pursue Christ, How did I come to saving faith in him? I must have seeked his guidance so I could understand the gospel correct? For I was still in the flesh, and without Gods help. could not understand it (the things of God are foolishness to those who are not yet his)

Try to explain that, oh and by the way, Jesus said he pursued us, not we pursued him. I guess you forgot all about that (john 6)

do you disagree with that

How could you agree with that, with any of this? do you study Gods word??

and obey Him (1 John 2:3).

1. God requires perfection. how good are you?
2. Would anyone who truly has faith in someone else. NOT OBEY THEM (even if not perfectly)

Do you disagree with that?

I disagree with the one who says someone can have true savng faith and never want to obey the one he says he has faith in

It is not the obedience that saved, it was the faith,

it is like you bypass faith and go right to works, all in an attempt to discredit licentiousness.. The jews did that when they made their many laws after the return to babylon. Seems that is what happened here..

And what in this...

It isn't enough to believe certain facts about Christ. Even Satan and his demons believe in the true God (James 2:19), but they don't love and obey Him. True saving faith always responds in obedience (Ephesians 2:10).

Its in error.


True faith does not respond in obedience, You added to the word. God created us new creature, and empowers us to be obedient, You want to take to much credit for yourself and your own power.

Mr MacArthur is wrong here, period.

We do not RESPOND in obedience, GOD CHANGES US FROM THE INSIDE OUT and CAUSES our obedience.

Those who were never made new creatures in Christ (eph 2: 9-10) by saving faith have no power to do good works, and they will not do the (although they can act like they do, by following some laws and acting all christ like).

How can we tell the difference between a change person who is powered by God and those who change themselves in a few areas by their ow power?

Sometimes you can't thats is why we should never judge.

...do you disagree with?

What in this is teaching salvation by works?

Where you are making a mistake is not understanding that in view is evidence of true faith, not the means of salvation.

Your making the mistake of trying to change yourself hopng God will save you, Ad not allowing God to change yourself from within.

You sound just like the legalist. Even though you claim you are not..

Do you beleive in eternal security? Does MaCarther??

That is mentioned here:


Jesus Is Lord and Savior
Romans 10:9 says, ìIf you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you shall be saved. Even though God's justice demands death for sin, His love has provided a Savior who paid the penalty and died for sinners (1 Peter 3:18). Christ's death satisfied the demands of God's justice, and Christ's perfect life satisfied the demands of God's holiness (2 Corinthians 5:21), thereby enabling Him to forgive and save those who place their faith in Him(Romans 3:26).

Does not sound like you believe it, You want a change and commitment first.. Paul did not say that here, He saiiid confess and have faith. That is not works. That is trusting God and recieving freely what God is offering.

Note the title of the statement:

The Character of Saving Faith

Not...the means of saving faith.

I disagree with hin, He is giving hiself and others to much credit, whcih belongs to Christ.

And that is the central issue of the Lordship Salvation Controversy, which does not address the means of salvation, it addresses the character of those saved, and whether we can, Biblically speaking, see that Scripture teaches that very thing.

It is giving people to much credit, and taking credit from God..

On one side is easy-believism, and on the other is recognition that faith is accompanied by evidences of genuine profession. Those cautions are given in Scripture for the express purpose that people know in no uncertain terms that nominal Christianity should be questioned.

And that's it for the day, I hope. Have to get going but you guys really make this fun, lol




God bless.

Jude, and james spoke of that, I do not need some mad to tell me I MUST MAKE JESUS LORD before I am saved.. That is legalism.

The tax collector did not go to make jesus lord, He came to beg for forgiveness, and ask God to change him..

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I'll leave you guys with a quote:


When people ask me, “What’s the biggest problem in the church?” I always say the same thing: The absence of discernment. That is the biggest problem in the church because if you can’t discern the truth with the Word of God in your hand, with the Bible in your hand, if you can’t discern the truth, you can die of 1,000 heresies. It’s like having spiritual AIDS. People who have a deficient immune system can die of 1,000 illnesses. The church can die of 1,000 heresies if it can’t exercise discernment. This is always the issue.

And part of the responsibility of ministry is the positive side to instruct with great patience, as Paul said to Timothy. But the other side is to reprove, rebuke, and exhort, and use the Word of God to do that. And to exercise discernment is at the very heart of Christian living because Christian living is a reflection of Christian thinking, and Christian thinking must be attached to sound doctrine, and that’s where discernment begins.



God bless.

wrong


the biggest problem wit the church is it will not just let gods word speak for itself. it is afraid people may not get gods word right, so we add words to the scripture. and make up these religious terms,, then get angry and judgmental when others say we should not do that.

 

[ember]

oops...what about the next sentence..."if Thou shalt believe and CONFESS with thy mouth the Lord JESUS, thou shalt be saved". Even satan and his demons BELIEVE totally in JESUS CHRIST. They tremble at the mere name of JESUS CHRIST and will instantly take flight and leave. However, they do NOT confess JESUS CHRIST as Savior, to them or anyone else. Ah, therein lies the issue here....We have to confess to this world that JESUS CHRIST is our Lord and Savior...otherwise, where is the witness? When we confess something, we better be able to 'back it up' and stand on the TRUTH. With NO confession and no noticeable change or new direction from our 'old' selves, we are NO GOOD to JESUS CHRIST.

does that come before salvation though?

or does that come after salvation?

there is a difference there

 

[ember]

Taken from Grace Community Church Website:

Jesus Is Lord and Savior
Romans 10:9 says, ìIf you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you shall be saved. Even though God's justice demands death for sin, His love has provided a Savior who paid the penalty and died for sinners (1 Peter 3:18). Christ's death satisfied the demands of God's justice, and Christ's perfect life satisfied the demands of God's holiness (2 Corinthians 5:21), thereby enabling Him to forgive and save those who place their faith in Him (Romans 3:26).

Here I agree 100 %


The Character of Saving Faith
True faith is always accompanied by repentance from sin. Repentance is agreeing with God that you are sinful, confessing your sins to Him, and making a conscious choice to turn from sin (Luke 13:3, 5; 1 Thessalonians 1:9), pursue Christ (Matthew 11: 28-30; John 17:3), and obey Him (1 John 2:3). It isn't enough to believe certain facts about Christ. Even Satan and his demons believe in the true God (James 2:19), but they don't love and obey Him. True saving faith always responds in obedience (Ephesians 2:10).

Here is where we get iffy

Why did he even have to add this, All this can do is confuse poeple. How good is good enough? How much obedience needs to be obeyed to be of pure faith and true repentance.

No wonder people jumped on him.. It is like he is saying, we are saved by faith, But then we are under law.

Can a person even know he is saved? By this there would be no way.. For what happens if one falls away and becomes a prodigal son? Is he still saved, or did he forfiet his lordship?

which is why I have been saying he does have some good things to say

but then he crosses the line and creates two tier salvation

I'm glad you caught that!

 

[ember]

Any time the issue becomes grace + something, you know you are dealing with something unbiblical irregardless of the sincerity or even pleas of those who follow such things. I am open to being shown that the Bible teaches otherwise, but I have yet to see anyone make that case and I have never found it myself.

We either have assurance of salvation or we do not. If we do not, then I suggest there is something wrong in what we believe because the Bible most assuredly confirms assurance of salvation WITHOUT works on our part. True works follow as we follow Christ.

Lordship advocates, IMO, do not even necessairly actually understand all that is being proposed because it is subtle....no one can come to Christ with the full awareness of Who He is in all His fullness...ask yourself why Paul prays that believers will come to know the love of God and to know Christ.

If having knowledge of all Christ is, is a prerequisite to salvation, then Paul's prayers for believers would be misguided.

I am always perturbed when I see folks defending the indefensible and or arguing and accusing and mocking. It is a sure indication that they do not have the assurance of faith in Christ as all they need for salvation that true faith produces.

STOP having faith in yourself in the words of others. Follow Christ...you will call Him Lord soon enough for He is Lord. You come to Him by admitting you are a sinner and that He died for you...the Holy Spirit is our Teacher and He will lead and guide you into all truth. Fellowship with other believers and study and prayer are all part of a healthy Christian life...becoming burdened with guilt before you even pray is not part of Gods' plan.

God tells us to lay our burdens down...not carry them around and examine them. We die under a load of sin...that is the natural course of things...Jesus takes those sins and removes them from us and sets us free. Don't become bound again when God says we are free.

The relationship between faith and works has been an issue of debate for many years. It centers around the nature of saving faith: Does it entail a response of the human will to the lordship of Christ?

Evangelicals maintain that justification is by grace through faith alone and that works are best understood as the fruit of faith. This faith is the one biblical foundation for assurance of salvation. When one becomes a Christian, he consciously believes in Christ. He does not need, nor is he required, to will a commitment to obedience, though he may do so.


Lordship Salvation advocates have extended saving faith to include a commitment to the lordship of Christ which entails obedience. This makes assurance conditional and the best anyone can hope for is to have enough good works to be somewhat confident of salvation. They believe that faith is necessary for assurance of salvation, but not sufficient. They also believe that confession, baptism, restitution, commitment, good works, surrender to Christ’s lordship, or some other requirement is necessary for salvation.

SOURCE

Any time the issue becomes grace + something, you know you are dealing with something unbiblical irregardless of the sincerity or even pleas of those who follow such things.

 

[ladylynn]

Here is what John MacArthur teaches...contrary to some of the things being posted here. MacArthur really has his own version of what salvation is.


The main problem with MacArthur's presentation can be summed up like this:

The problem with what John MacArthur is saying is that he is making the fruit that FOLLOWS belief a requirement BEFORE one can be saved.

So in John MacArthur’s first quote, he says that one must be willing to forsake everything and even be willing to die for Jesus to receive salvation. Notice he is not saying that this is the attitude of believers after they have been saved; he is saying one must have this attitude in order to be saved in the first place. In his second quote, John MacArthur says for a person to be saved, they must resolve to have implicit obedience and fully surrender to the Lordship of Jesus Christ. Again, he is not saying that this should and would be the attitude of those who have been saved, but it is the attitude one must have in order to be saved in the first place.

In MacArthur’s third quote, he says that saving faith is a “commitment to leave sin and follow Jesus at all cost.” If someone doesn’t commit to leave all their sin, then they cannot be saved by Jesus Christ. And lastly, in his book “Hard to Believe” MacArthur says that if anyone wants to be a Christian they HAVE to face three commands; deny himself, take up his cross, and follow him. So these three things have to be addressed BEFORE one can be saved and become a child of God. They are prerequisites to salvation; without which, if a man does not commit to, he cannot be saved and will die in his sins.

Now you’re probably thinking, “What’s wrong with what John MacArthur has said? After all, a lot of these things are mentioned in the New Testament, both in the gospels and in the Epistles.” The problem with what John MacArthur is saying is that he is making the fruit that FOLLOWS belief a requirement BEFORE one can be saved.

So according to Lordship Salvation, one must be willing to forsake everything, be willing to die for Jesus, resolve to have implicit obedience, fully surrender to the Lordship of Christ, commit to leave all sin, follow Jesus at all cost, AND have faith in what Jesus has done for us on the cross.

Lordship Salvation, in essence, requires a sinner to do what he is unable to do. He must do and commit to do all these things in order to receive the salvation Jesus offers, even before he has the Spirit of God dwelling in him. The salvation Jesus offers is no longer a free gift to be received; it is a gift to be meritoriously achieved (earned by merit).

SOURCE

Yikes ember, I didn't know that at all and will have to read up on it. But did want to refresh my memory about John MacGarther and give a more updated opinion to Pilgrim about why I'm not a big John M. fan. Listened to 2 messages this morning on youtube before leaving for work. I was again reminded why I stopped listening to him some years ago Pilgrim. What I hear from him is a heaviness of duty and difficulty. One of the messages was about how believers should make sure they are not the ones that Jesus will say " I never knew you" JM stressed how awful it will be for someone who believes they are a Christian and to finally see Jesus only to have Him say I NEVER KNEW YOU.

Looking at 'self' leads to a downward spiral. Looking to Jesus lifts us up. The major change that took place in my Christian life was when I finally was able to rest in the Giver. Have faith in the finished work of the Giver. AND for me to stop trying to BE the giver. I could not learn to be a giver until I learned how to take from Him.

To learn to follow and trust and believe Jesus when He promises to never leave or forsake me. Faith in Him and His love not faith in my faith and my love. Can't have a close trusting relationship if we are always looking at how faithful we are and not how faithful He is.

 

[BradC]

Yikes ember, I didn't know that at all. But did want to refresh my memory about John MacGarther and give a more updated opinion to Pilgrim about why I'm not a big John M. fan. Listened to 2 messages this morning on youtube before leaving for work. I was again reminded why I stopped listening to him some years ago Pilgrim. What I hear from him is a heaviness of duty and difficulty. One of the messages was about how believers should make sure they are not the ones that Jesus will say " I never knew you" JM stressed how awful it will be for someone who believes they are a Christian and to finally see Jesus only to have Him say I NEVER KNEW YOU.

Looking at 'self' leads to a downward spiral. Looking to Jesus lifts us up. The major change that took place in my Christian life was when I finally was able to rest in the Giver. Have faith in the finished work of the Giver. AND for me to stop trying to BE the giver. I could not learn to be a giver until I learned how to take from Him.

To learn to follow and trust and believe Jesus when He promises to never leave or forsake me. Faith in Him and His love not faith in my faith and my love. Can't have a close trusting relationship if we are always looking at how faithful we are and not how faithful He is.

Thank you for this post.

 

[ladylynn]

I truly cannot comprehend how someone can put the cart before the horse like this

MacArthur is very outspoken against the gifts of the Holy Spirit...teaching is one of the gifts

Sometimes I wonder if when a person does that, God allows them to become deceived

People need to understand that even if you do not believe everything in scripture, you are far better off just closing your mouth about it instead of attacking people who are not like you.

I maintain and will continue to state that no one has all the truth or all the answers and we are not all in the same place with God but He is the One who keeps us...He is the One who is faithful

All the rest is last month's garbage

I agree with you, no one person or one church has it all 100% right. Only God is perfect. Humans are subject to tons of 'issues' that give us a certain slant to the things we believe. Another major good reason to grab a hold of the gift of grace and have confidence that the HolySpirit will teach us along the way.

 

[Kefa54]

Wrong again....lol "the biggest problem wit the church is it will not just let God's word speak for itself"


We need a revelation. That’s why the New Testament doesn’t talk about revival. Instead, it often reminds us of what we already have in Christ. Paul didn’t pray for revival in the church. He asked for revelation:

"I too, having heard of the faith in the Lord Jesus which exists among you and your love for all the saints, do not cease giving thanks for you, while making mention of you in my prayers; that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give to you a spirit of wisdom and of revelation in the knowledge of Him (Ephesians 1:15-17).


"

wrong


the biggest problem wit the church is it will not just let gods word speak for itself. it is afraid people may not get gods word right, so we add words to the scripture. and make up these religious terms,, then get angry and judgmental when others say we should not do that.

 

[Angela53510]

Any time the issue becomes grace + something, you know you are dealing with something unbiblical irregardless of the sincerity or even pleas of those who follow such things. I am open to being shown that the Bible teaches otherwise, but I have yet to see anyone make that case and I have never found it myself.

We either have assurance of salvation or we do not. If we do not, then I suggest there is something wrong in what we believe because the Bible most assuredly confirms assurance of salvation WITHOUT works on our part. True works follow as we follow Christ.

Lordship advocates, IMO, do not even necessairly actually understand all that is being proposed because it is subtle....no one can come to Christ with the full awareness of Who He is in all His fullness...ask yourself why Paul prays that believers will come to know the love of God and to know Christ.

If having knowledge of all Christ is, is a prerequisite to salvation, then Paul's prayers for believers would be misguided.

I am always perturbed when I see folks defending the indefensible and or arguing and accusing and mocking. It is a sure indication that they do not have the assurance of faith in Christ as all they need for salvation that true faith produces.

STOP having faith in yourself in the words of others. Follow Christ...you will call Him Lord soon enough for He is Lord. You come to Him by admitting you are a sinner and that He died for you...the Holy Spirit is our Teacher and He will lead and guide you into all truth. Fellowship with other believers and study and prayer are all part of a healthy Christian life...becoming burdened with guilt before you even pray is not part of Gods' plan.

God tells us to lay our burdens down...not carry them around and examine them. We die under a load of sin...that is the natural course of things...Jesus takes those sins and removes them from us and sets us free. Don't become bound again when God says we are free.


SOURCE

Any time the issue becomes grace + something, you know you are dealing with something unbiblical irregardless of the sincerity or even pleas of those who follow such things.

I tried to find something on the Internet with direct quotes from JMcA, but I could not. Lots of people quoting him on both sides, for and against, but nothing from him. Which in itself I find kind of weird! Nothing! On the internet? I didn't think it was that hard to sell books these days. (So he has to withhold what he has written in his book, to sell them?)

I agree with ember, that we cannot add anything to the gospel. Whether JMcA says this or not, I do not know. I did read a long article by John Piper who I like, but do not always agree with. He was firm that we receive Christ as Lord and Saviour at the same time, and then we grow in our walk. That is my experience, but more important, it is Biblical!

I guess this is why I have been so confused about Lordship Salvation. Although we certainly studied heresies in seminary, this was not one of them. Why? Because it is so new? (We never actually studied WoF teachings either!) Or because it is limited to a cult? One which might be growing in size? Or not?

When the people who advocate Lordship Salvation are not willing to post a few words on the Internet concerning their views, I have to think it is a cult. Because if it was true, there would be honest and open discussions about the topic. Even if people disagreed, at least there would be room to understand, to learn and to either accept or reject this.

@PILGRIM

I was most disturbed by your calling out of ember for being a charismatic, as the driving force behind her rejection of Lordship Salvation. In fact, this whole thread was started because a Pentecostal said he agreed with Lordship Salvation. I am NOT charismatic. But if what ember has posted above is true, (and I am sure it is) I am totally against Lordship Salvation. I don't think that Lordship Salvation really has anything to do with whether you are charismatic or not. Just because JMcA is against charismatics and believes in Lordship Salvation, doesn't mean that is the the only combination possible. Again, salvation and the Lordship of Christ are really unrelated to gifts of the Spirit which follow salvation.

It also upsets me that so many people think that the gifts of the Spirit, are tongues, interpretation and prophecy. There are many other gifts, which are very evident in the body of Christ, which are in use in churches which totally eschew tongues.

"having gifts that differ according to the grace given to us, let us use them: if prophecy, in proportion to our faith;7 if service, in our serving; the one who teaches, in his teaching;8 the one who exhorts, in his exhortation; the one who contributes, in generosity; the one who leads,with zeal; the one who does acts of mercy, with cheerfulness." Romans 12:6-8

I have always had the gift of teaching, and some gifting in leadership. My husband is very gifted in acts of service and acts of mercy. Are you telling me that makes us charismatics? Or that God gives us no tools to serve him and share the gospel? Sounds like a pretty empty sort of way to serve Christ. Sorry, I am going to keep walking with God, and letting the Holy Spirit empower me to do his will. Without tongues, for those who might think I am reconverting! (Just joking, my good friends!)

 

[PennEd]

I fully understand the importance of proper doctrine, and the need to discuss it, but having said that have we given thought to just how much time and energy we spend trying to determine who is and who is not saved?

I'm not saying I know the answer, just making an observation, and a feeling that it just doesn't seem right.

Peace, love, and Grace to my sweet brothers and sisters in Christ.