LORDSHIP SALVATION

[KennethC]

Were you baptized into Moses?

You started the rabbit trail, and I am going to finish it, lol.

Answer the question.


God bless.

I did answer your question yet you are still focusing on the physical and not the spiritual aspect, come back when you look into the spiritual and rightly divide one from the other.

So do you believe you have to be baptised in water to be saved?

Read john 4

What does John 4 have to do with the discussion as it does not do away with water baptism, and nowhere in the bible does it do away with the immersion in water ???

Can we deliberately deny to obey Jesus Christ's commands and be saved unto salvation ???

No we can not as the bible has clear strict warnings about disobedience and where that leads, and Jesus did command baptism in Matthew 28 and Mark 16.

Show me a command in the bible that says immersing people in water during baptism was done away with, you will not find it as even in the book of Acts we see the Apostles still carried out this command. Apostle Peter even states that no man can forbid it to be done !!!

 

[P1LGR1M]

I am sure you noted I stated no one under the new covenant could be saved unless they were born again! Allowing for anyone to be pedantic concerning the time between when Jesus died and rose again and pentecost
So I don't see how your points at relevant!
God bless

There is simply no reason to think that men were born again before Pentecost, including the period between the Resurrection and Ascension.

New Birth is not something that can be separated from the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit in His New Covenant Ministry did not come until Pentecost.

Men were saved prior to the Cross and Pentecost, but they were not born again, just as their sins were not redeemed through vicarious animal death.

What is relevant to you I cannot say, I can only point out what I see as inconsistent and contradictory in statements.


God bless.

 

[james57]

There is simply no reason to think that men were born again before Pentecost, including the period between the Resurrection and Ascension.

New Birth is not something that can be separated from the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit in His New Covenant Ministry did not come until Pentecost.

Men were saved prior to the Cross and Pentecost, but they were not born again, just as their sins were not redeemed through vicarious animal death.

What is relevant to you I cannot say, I can only point out what I see as inconsistent and contradictory in statements.


God bless.

I honestly cannot see how you have pointed out any inconsistency at all in what I have said. I have stated no one was born again under the old covenant. I did NOT state no one could be in a saved state under the old covenant. I stated no one could be in a saved state under the NEW covenant unless they were born again. I agree the holy spirit brings rebirth

 

[P1LGR1M]

I did answer your question yet you are still focusing on the physical and not the spiritual aspect, come back when you look into the spiritual and rightly divide one from the other.

Trying to make this passage "spiritual" rather than physical is not an answer, so I will answer for you, my friend...

...you were not baptized into Moses, lol.

You were, if you are a born again believer, Baptized into Christ, not Moses.

Now there is a thread called "Ten Reasons to Reject Baptismal Regeneration" if you are interested in trying to teach physical water has to do with Regeneration, which is, I would point out, the exact opposite of what you are charging me with in regards to this passage...


1 Corinthians 10

King James Version (KJV)

1 Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea;

[SUP]2 [/SUP]And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea;


Now here are a few points that you need to consider in order to see that Paul is not giving a "spiritual" rendition of Old Testament Regeneration here:

1. They are baptized into Moses, not Christ;

2. We can read the Old Testament account as well as New Testament accounts (i.e., Hebrews 3) and see that these fellows were in large part...not even believers, but unbelievers;

3. We know that this Baptism does not include water because that is what the Bible teaches:


Exodus 14:29

King James Version (KJV)

[SUP]29 [/SUP]But the children of Israel walked upon dry land in the midst of the sea; and the waters were a wall unto them on their right hand, and on their left.



You are merging and blending Old and New Testament teachings and creating a hybrid which does not convey the truth of Scripture.

So the answer you refuse to give is that no, you were not baptized into Moses, and those who were not not saved through this Baptism.


God bless.

 

[BradC]

I did answer your question yet you are still focusing on the physical and not the spiritual aspect, come back when you look into the spiritual and rightly divide one from the other.





What does John 4 have to do with the discussion as it does not do away with water baptism, and nowhere in the bible does it do away with the immersion in water ???

Can we deliberately deny to obey Jesus Christ's commands and be saved unto salvation ???

No we can not as the bible has clear strict warnings about disobedience and where that leads, and Jesus did command baptism in Matthew 28 and Mark 16.

Show me a command in the bible that says immersing people in water during baptism was done away with, you will not find it as even in the book of Acts we see the Apostles still carried out this command. Apostle Peter even states that no man can forbid it to be done !!!

Some believers want an outward act of obedience (such as water baptism) to be a part of the salvation offered by Christ so that they can feel assured of their salvation. Faith in the finished work of the cross does not seem to be enough for them to have the righteousness of God imputed when they believe. They need an outward act to substantiate their faith. To hear the gospel and agree with it by faith is not enough for them to be forgiven of sins and justified by grace. Something needs to be added to the message of the gospel or they can not accept it as it is.

 

[james57]

I did answer your question yet you are still focusing on the physical and not the spiritual aspect, come back when you look into the spiritual and rightly divide one from the other.





What does John 4 have to do with the discussion as it does not do away with water baptism, and nowhere in the bible does it do away with the immersion in water ???

Can we deliberately deny to obey Jesus Christ's commands and be saved unto salvation ???

No we can not as the bible has clear strict warnings about disobedience and where that leads, and Jesus did command baptism in Matthew 28 and Mark 16.

Show me a command in the bible that says immersing people in water during baptism was done away with, you will not find it as even in the book of Acts we see the Apostles still carried out this command. Apostle Peter even states that no man can forbid it to be done !!!

Show me where I stated the command to be baptised in water has been done away with?


I am more interested right now in you trying to prove from scripture anyone was born again under the old covenant.

 

[KennethC]

Trying to make this passage "spiritual" rather than physical is not an answer, so I will answer for you, my friend...

...you were not baptized into Moses, lol.

You were, if you are a born again believer, Baptized into Christ, not Moses.

Now there is a thread called "Ten Reasons to Reject Baptismal Regeneration" if you are interested in trying to teach physical water has to do with Regeneration, which is, I would point out, the exact opposite of what you are charging me with in regards to this passage...


1 Corinthians 10

King James Version (KJV)

1 Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea;

[SUP]2 [/SUP]And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea;


Now here are a few points that you need to consider in order to see that Paul is not giving a "spiritual" rendition of Old Testament Regeneration here:

1. They are baptized into Moses, not Christ;

2. We can read the Old Testament account as well as New Testament accounts (i.e., Hebrews 3) and see that these fellows were in large part...not even believers, but unbelievers;

3. We know that this Baptism does not include water because that is what the Bible teaches:


Exodus 14:29

King James Version (KJV)

[SUP]29 [/SUP]But the children of Israel walked upon dry land in the midst of the sea; and the waters were a wall unto them on their right hand, and on their left.



You are merging and blending Old and New Testament teachings and creating a hybrid which does not convey the truth of Scripture.

So the answer you refuse to give is that no, you were not baptized into Moses, and those who were not not saved through this Baptism.


God bless.

You shown me exactly where you stand in your first statement, as we are always to look at the Spiritual aspect in His word !!!

To focus to much on the physical and not look at the spiritual is looking at scripture with a carnal mindset still.

 

[KennethC]

Some believers want an outward act of obedience (such as water baptism) to be a part of the salvation offered by Christ so that they can feel assured of their salvation. Faith in the finished work of the cross does not seem to be enough for them to have the righteousness of God imputed when they believe. They need an outward act to substantiate their faith. To hear the gospel and agree with it by faith is not enough for them to be forgiven of sins and justified by grace. Something needs to be added to the message of the gospel or they can not accept it as it is.

I will ask you the same: Can a person continue to be deliberately disobedient to Christ's commands and have salvation both ???

The answer for disobedience is in the bible and it's outcome is not eternal life.....

 

[P1LGR1M]

I honestly cannot see how you have pointed out any inconsistency at all in what I have said. I have stated no one was born again under the old covenant. I did NOT state no one could be in a saved state under the old covenant. I stated no one could be in a saved state under the NEW covenant unless they were born again. I agree the holy spirit brings rebirth

The inconsistency I see is seen in the statement...

Under the new covenant one cannot be in a saved state unless they are born again. If you want to get pedantic as to whether the term born again can be applied before Pentecost, that's ok

You mention being pedantic about whether the term can be applied before Pentecost, as though this is an inconsequential matter (meaning one can if they choose apply this term prior to Pentecost).

Then you say no-one was, which I agree with.

My response addressed Election and salvation under Old Testament conditions, so you can end this chatter by simply clarifying what you mean.

Do you or do you not recognize men were saved in the Old Testament, and not just in terms of Election, but in terms of being declared just by God?

Do you believe regeneration is something found under New Covenant standard only, or do you see this as something that occurred under Old Testament Economies as well?

Answering those two questions will clarify if we are in disagreement or not, and if we are, on which points.


God bless.

 

[BradC]

I will ask you the same: Can a person continue to be deliberately disobedient to Christ's commands and have salvation both ???

The answer for disobedience is in the bible and it's outcome is not eternal life.....

Disobedient to what commandments?

 

[KennethC]

Show me where I stated the command to be baptised in water has been done away with?


I am more interested right now in you trying to prove from scripture anyone was born again under the old covenant.

Sorry if I misunderstood you but that is usually the direction some go when they state things such as you did on if a person needs to be baptized in water to be saved.

They also go the route of trying to use the thief on the cross who is an example of the Lord's mercy and not the teachings and commands of the Lord for the New Covenant.

I already gave you scripture to show they were born again from 1 Corinthians 10:1-2 that you obviously reject, yet that passage parallels that of John 3 where Jesus taught to Nicodemus of being born again.

Also take a look at Hebrews 9:18-20, Exodus 19:10-11, and Exodus 29:4 to show water and blood both are used to dedicate both covenants.

 

[P1LGR1M]

You shown me exactly where you stand in your first statement, as we are always to look at the Spiritual aspect in His word !!!

To focus to much on the physical and not look at the spiritual is looking at scripture with a carnal mindset still.

It's a false argument, I never intimated there is not a spiritual aspect to Scripture, but that you are in error to impose a spiritual application to the Baptism mentioned in 1 Corinthians 10:1-2.

And you still refuse to address the question and the supplied answer.

Are believers baptized into Moses these days?

Answer the question and spare me the false arguments and charges, lol.


God bless.

 

[P1LGR1M]

Also take a look at Hebrews 9:18-20, Exodus 19:10-11, and Exodus 29:4 to show water and blood both are used to dedicate both covenants.

Don't be lazy, post the Scripture.




God bless.

 

[KennethC]

Disobedient to what commandments?

Do you really need to ask that question as the Lord Jesus said believers are to obey/observe all that He commanded and taught.

Lord Jesus did not give only 2 commandments like some try to teach, for He only said those are the 2 greatest commandments.

Also I have shown in the past a chart that shows a lot of the places in the NT that new covenant believers will uphold the 10 Commandments as well through walking in love.

Obedience and disobedience is emphasized all throughout the bible, and Paul warns believers about continuing in disobedient sinful behaviors constantly !!!

 

[james57]

The inconsistency I see is seen in the statement...





You mention being pedantic about whether the term can be applied before Pentecost, as though this is an inconsequential matter (meaning one can if they choose apply this term prior to Pentecost).

Then you say no-one was, which I agree with.

My response addressed Election and salvation under Old Testament conditions, so you can end this chatter by simply clarifying what you mean.

Do you or do you not recognize men were saved in the Old Testament, and not just in terms of Election, but in terms of being declared just by God?

Do you believe regeneration is something found under New Covenant standard only, or do you see this as something that occurred under Old Testament Economies as well?

Answering those two questions will clarify if we are in disagreement or not, and if we are, on which points.


God bless.

It seems to me in an effort to find disagreement and be argumentative you jumped the gun a wee bit concerning my statements.

People were accepted by God in the ot but were they justified at that time?
Well no one living then was righteous /justified in Gods sight were they psalms143:2
All in the ot God accepted as his own needed Christs sacrifice at Calvary the same as we do today to attain heaven, for they could not meet the standard set by the law to be righteous/justified in Gods sight. But I better repeat so you don't jump the gun again. God accepted people in the ot, and in the ot no one was born again

 

[P1LGR1M]

Do you really need to ask that question as the Lord Jesus said believers are to obey/observe all that He commanded and taught.

Lord Jesus did not give only 2 commandments like some try to teach, for He only said those are the 2 greatest commandments.

Also I have shown in the past a chart that shows a lot of the places in the NT that new covenant believers will uphold the 10 Commandments as well through walking in love.

Obedience and disobedience is emphasized all throughout the bible, and Paul warns believers about continuing in disobedient sinful behaviors constantly !!!

Now if you would just show how the Church is baptized into Moses and how people who "passed through the sea" has a "spiritual" application of water baptism (or applies to the Church in any way other than Paul's use of it to contrast then and now) and that this somehow corroborates Baptismal Regeneration.


God bless.

 

[KennethC]

It's a false argument, I never intimated there is not a spiritual aspect to Scripture, but that you are in error to impose a spiritual application to the Baptism mentioned in 1 Corinthians 10:1-2.

And you still refuse to address the question and the supplied answer.

Are believers baptized into Moses these days?

Answer the question and spare me the false arguments and charges, lol.


God bless.

It is not a false argument and I am not addressing it in the way you want me to because your answer is based on physical understanding.

I was pointing out the Spiritual understanding of it to show these people were born again, yet you did not like the answer therefore you continue to make false statements as if I didn't answer.

Nobody has to answer the way you demand them to answer for we are not accountable to you, but we are accountable to God and will have to answer if we do away with His words.

Remember there is warnings about adding or taking away from His words !!!

 

[P1LGR1M]

It seems to me in an effort to find disagreement and be argumentative you jumped the gun a wee bit concerning my statements.

I would think that would be understandable seeing your statement was not very clear, and enters into discussion which is focusing on the difference between being saved and being regenerated.

I don't have a problem apologizing, lol, and I do in regards to misunderstanding your very obscure statement.

People were accepted by God in the ot but were they justified at that time?
Well no one living then was righteous /justified in Gods sight were they psalms143:2

Of course they were justified, lol:


Hebrews 12:22-24

King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]22 [/SUP]But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,

[SUP]23 [/SUP]To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,

[SUP]24 [/SUP]And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.



Hebrews 11:4

King James Version (KJV)

[SUP]4 [/SUP]By faith Abel offered unto God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, by which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts: and by it he being dead yet speaketh.


It's a Romans thing, perhaps you are familiar with it?

All in the ot God accepted as his own needed Christs sacrifice at Calvary the same as we do today to attain heaven, for they could not meet the standard set by the law to be righteous/justified in Gods sight.

Agree wholeheartedly.

But I better repeat so you don't jump the gun again.

No, just try to make clearer statements, especially when you are jumping into the middle of an ongoing discussion. lol

God accepted people in the ot, and in the ot no one was born again

Also agree, but we see men declared just as well.

We have to distinguish, though, the difference between the physical nature of salvation in the Old Testament, which while still has application to the eternal, does not mean that we impose those elements of New Covenant Salvation into the Old Testament. They were promise only, until they were actually bestowed.

Now, not to be off topic, lol, but could you tell me...

...where exactly do you stand in regards to the Lordship/No-Lordship controversy?

I mean, if it is not too much trouble?




God bless.

 

[KennethC]

Now if you would just show how the Church is baptized into Moses and how people who "passed through the sea" has a "spiritual" application of water baptism (or applies to the Church in any way other than Paul's use of it to contrast then and now) and that this somehow corroborates Baptismal Regeneration.


God bless.

There you go distorting things and saying something I never said, as I never said the Church is baptized into Moses.

That is what you are saying as you continue to look only at the physical and not the Spiritual application of the scripture.

Nowhere was baptizing by the act of immersing in water done away with anywhere in the bible; Jesus commanded it done, and the Apostles commanded it done and carried it out.

I have given you a few scriptures showing water and blood both used in dedicating the covenants, and showed how it was used in both the OT and NT. Also take a look at the Lord Jesus when His side was pierced while on the cross, what came out of His side blood, water, or both ??? Both !!!

 

[james57]

I would think that would be understandable seeing your statement was not very clear, and enters into discussion which is focusing on the difference between being saved and being regenerated.

I don't have a problem apologizing, lol, and I do in regards to misunderstanding your very obscure statement.







Of course they were justified, lol:


Hebrews 12:22-24

King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]22 [/SUP]But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,

[SUP]23 [/SUP]To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,

[SUP]24 [/SUP]And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.



Hebrews 11:4

King James Version (KJV)

[SUP]4 [/SUP]By faith Abel offered unto God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, by which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts: and by it he being dead yet speaketh.


It's a Romans thing, perhaps you are familiar with it?







Agree wholeheartedly.




No, just try to make clearer statements, especially when you are jumping into the middle of an ongoing discussion. lol




Also agree, but we see men declared just as well.

We have to distinguish, though, the difference between the physical nature of salvation in the Old Testament, which while still has application to the eternal, does not mean that we impose those elements of New Covenant Salvation into the Old Testament. They were promise only, until they were actually bestowed.

Now, not to be off topic, lol, but could you tell me...

...where exactly do you stand in regards to the Lordship/No-Lordship controversy?

I mean, if it is not too much trouble?




God bless.

Do not bring your servant into judgement for no one living is (truly) righteous before you psalms 143:2

Do you mean the lordship debate as in does salvation include works?

I will answer assuming that is the question

A person is saved by faith I Christ alone. The works God requires are done out of love and gratitude for a FREE salvation. God does not want works that are done with a view they will better enable someone to attain heaven