LORDSHIP SALVATION

[james57]

So my brothers, you also died to the law(of righteousness) through the body of Christ so that you might belong to another to him who was raised from the dead in order that we might bear fruit for God
For when we were controlled by the sinful nature, the sinful passions aroused by the law were at work in our bodies so that we bore fruit for death
But now by dying to what once bound us we have been released from the law so that we serve in the new way of the spirit and not the old way of the written code
Rom7:4-6
Which law is Paul stating we die to?
In the next five verses he gives a personal example from his own life as to why he had to die to a law of righteousness. The example he gave was. Thou shalt not covet. Which is one of the ten commandments

 

[P1LGR1M]

Romans 3:31, and Romans 13:9-11

I've already told you, you need to post the Scriptures.

I have no desire to research what you think supports your doctrine.

Understand?





God bless.

 

[james57]

Let's not forget...


2 Timothy 3:15-17

King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]15 [/SUP]And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.

[SUP]16 [/SUP]All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

[SUP]17 [/SUP]That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.


All Scripture.

Thoroughly furnished unto all good works.

We cannot present a scenario that anything that conflicts with Scripture is profitable for anything.


God bless.

I'm not conflicting with scripture. I have repeatedly stated the ten commandments have been placed on our hearts and minds and should be reflected in our lives.
What I have said is, the christian is not under them unto righteousness, there is a difference
God bless

 

[KennethC]

I've already told you, you need to post the Scriptures.

I have no desire to research what you think supports your doctrine.

Understand?





God bless.

Romans 3:31 says we do not void the law by faith, we establish it !!!

Romans 13:9-11 shows that the 10 Commandments and any other command given by the Lord is fulfilled by love !!!

 

[KennethC]

I'm not conflicting with scripture. I have repeatedly stated the ten commandments have been placed on our hearts and minds and should be reflected in our lives.
What I have said is, the christian is not under them unto righteousness, there is a difference
God bless

Yes we do not become righteous by keeping them as righteousness comes from the Lord, but we do uphold and follow them by walking in love.

 

[james57]

Romans 3:31 says we do not void the law by faith, we establish it !!!

Romans 13:9-11 shows that the 10 Commandments and any other command given by the Lord is fulfilled by love !!!

Do we nullify the law by this faith(a righteousness of faith in Christ not obedience to the law) Not at all! Rather we uphold the law. Rom3:31
For sin shall not be your master for you are not under law(of righteousness) but under grace(through faith in Christ) rom6:14

 

[james57]

Yes we do not become righteous by keeping them as righteousness comes from the Lord, but we do uphold and follow them by walking in love.

Absolutely, love fulfills the law. But our sole righteousness is Christ, not works of the law. You have to remember who is preaching here. A person who hinged everything on strict obedience of the law and by doing so he became the chief of sinners. Hence his message

 

[Gr8grace]

Matt 28:19-20
19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.
KJV


Virtually all Bible believing churches understand the responsibility to evangelize; but, unfortunately, very few follow up with discipleship!

The Great Commission does not stop at verse 19!

I agree Marc. Most churches don't go past the gospel.

And if one is paying attention..........lordship salvation stops evangelizing and says discipleship is salvation and evangelizing. They put the cart before the horse.

It would be great and splendid if they said ," Spectacular, now that you are saved this is how the Lord wants you to operate."

BUT, they say." Really? Lets see if your saved. If you don't operate like this and show us x amount of fruit and evidence then I will question and make you question the Lords salvation of you."

I am not the only one privy to it, but it is amazing the amount of words typed defending lordship salvation and then go back and try to find where they clearly presented the Gospel.

Satan does the same thing. he will talk creature credit, right living, talk about Jesus,morality, God, being sweet and nice following His commands.

But He will not say................believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you WILL be saved PERIOD. he will say it but he has add to it.

And lordship salvation ADDS to it........it is faith alone BUT........you WILL and MUST have a changed LIFESTYLE or behavior.he Puts the focus back on the creature instead of the Creator.

 

[KennethC]

So my brothers, you also died to the law(of righteousness) through the body of Christ so that you might belong to another to him who was raised from the dead in order that we might bear fruit for God
For when we were controlled by the sinful nature, the sinful passions aroused by the law were at work in our bodies so that we bore fruit for death
But now by dying to what once bound us we have been released from the law so that we serve in the new way of the spirit and not the old way of the written code
Rom7:4-6
Which law is Paul stating we die to?
In the next five verses he gives a personal example from his own life as to why he had to die to a law of righteousness. The example he gave was. Thou shalt not covet. Which is one of the ten commandments

First we must understand the context of what is going on from Romans 7 to Romans 8, and the stance is Paul is speaking on His conversion and maturing in the faith in these two chapters.

Notice how he says in verse 7:14 he is carnal sold under sin, for this is because he was under the Mosaic law (written ordinances) and those laws held him bondage in the flesh by showing him his sins. Thus it brought death because the flesh is to weak, and the law has no power to save.

Then go to 7:24 where he pleads who can deliver him from that wretched way ???

Then in Romans 8 he moves into speaking of walking by the Spirit and in 8:6 he states he is no longer carnally minded as that way leads to death for he is now spiritual minded. He says the carnal mind is still enmity to God !!!

 

[james57]

First we must understand the context of what is going on from Romans 7 to Romans 8, and the stance is Paul is speaking on His conversion and maturing in the faith in these two chapters.

Notice how he says in verse 7:14 he is carnal sold under sin, for this is because he was under the Mosaic law (written ordinances) and those laws held him bondage in the flesh by showing him his sins. Thus it brought death because the flesh is to weak, and the law has no power to save.

Then go to 7:24 where he pleads who can deliver him from that wretched way ???

Then in Romans 8 he moves into speaking of walking by the Spirit and in 8:6 he states he is no longer carnally minded as that way leads to death for he is now spiritual minded. He says the carnal mind is still enmity to God !!!

Paul is NOT saying he was sold under sin due to the mosaic law but the ten commandments. He could faultlessly obey the mosaic law(phil3:6) it was the ten commandments he could not obey(rom7:8) he was speaking pre conversion to Christianity of course in rom7:8

 

[KennethC]

Absolutely, love fulfills the law. But our sole righteousness is Christ, not works of the law. You have to remember who is preaching here. A person who hinged everything on strict obedience of the law and by doing so he became the chief of sinners. Hence his message

I would have posted a like except for the ending of your post because Paul did not say he was chief sinner because of obedience to the law, he stated that because before he was converted he was guilty of persecuting and murdering Christians.

He was known as the Pharisee Saul and was responsible for the stoning do death of Stephen !!!

 

[MarcR]

The Philippian jailer never got the LS memo...

Acts 16:30-31 KJVS
[30] And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved? [31] And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.

I think that this depends on how the word πιστεύω 'believe' is understood.πιστεύω 'Believe' can mean either total trust and reliance (faith),

[31] And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house. (Aorist active imperative)

or credence (intellectual assent James 2:19
19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble. (present active indicative)
KJV

The (present active indicative) indicates ongoing action and suggests credence.


In [31] And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house. (Aorist active imperative), the aorist refers to a one time event and suggests faith.

This also seems to support the notion that having come to faith Salvation is accomplished without need for ongoing maintenance.

 

[james57]

I would have posted a like except for the ending of your post because Paul did not say he was chief sinner because of obedience to the law, he stated that because before he was converted he was guilty of persecuting and murdering Christians.

He was known as the Pharisee Saul and was responsible for the stoning do death of Stephen !!!

Although I take your point, sin grew in Paul because he strove for a law of righteousness before God. He was after all an ardent Pharisee, and Jesus referred to the Pharisees as being full of wickedness, hypocrisy and everything unclean on the inside. Paul believed the sinful passions in us are aroused by the law when you live under it rom7:5

 

[KennethC]

Paul is NOT saying he was sold under sin due to the mosaic law but the ten commandments. He could faultlessly obey the mosaic law(phil3:6) it was the ten commandments he could not obey(rom7:8) he was speaking pre conversion to Christianity of course in rom7:8

That is not correct as they showed in Acts 15 that nobody could keep the Mosaic laws, he was saying in Phil. 3:6 that his zeal for the righteousness that was in the law he was blameless; Not that he kept it perfect !!!

It was the written ordinances that is the ministry of death because they pointed out our sins, and the punishment was death for breaking them.

This is where background study in Jewish tradition and the Talmud helps in this area when it comes to the law.

He was just making a statement that he would not have know to covet was sin if it weren't for the law, as the law pointed out sins.

 

[Gr8grace]

I think that this depends on how the word πιστεύω 'believe' is understood.πιστεύω 'Believe' can mean either total trust and reliance (faith),

[31] And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house. (Aorist active imperative)

or credence (intellectual assent James 2:19
19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble. (present active indicative)
KJV

The (present active indicative) indicates ongoing action and suggests credence.


In [31] And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house. (Aorist active imperative), the aorist refers to a one time event and suggests faith.

This also seems to support the notion that having come to faith Salvation is accomplished without need for ongoing maintenance.

This is why religion is satans ace trump and not sin. The person who does put his total trust in Christ alone and goes out and gets drunk at the strip club and abuses his freedom in Christ.....will be dealt with in divine discipline.

But the person who trusts in their stopping of doing these things because Jesus said.......will be dealt with in the LoF. They never did put their complete trust in Christ's finished work.

 

[Hoffco]

James57 ,you are really messed up on your Bible, you have so little knowledge of the Whole teaching of the Bible ,this is why you make such stupid statements. like Rom.7&8 are pre,salvation to Paul/Saul. Rom. 6,7,8 is saved Paul reliving his conversion and christian maturity in ch.6,7&8.

 

[james57]

That is not correct as they showed in Acts 15 that nobody could keep the Mosaic laws, he was saying in Phil. 3:6 that his zeal for the righteousness that was in the law he was blameless; Not that he kept it perfect !!!

It was the written ordinances that is the ministry of death because they pointed out our sins, and the punishment was death for breaking them.

This is where background study in Jewish tradition and the Talmud helps in this area when it comes to the law.

He was just making a statement that he would not have know to covet was sin if it weren't for the law, as the law pointed out sins.

No according to my niv Paul states he was faultless concerning legalistic righteousness. In 2cor3:7 Paul states the ministration of death was written on tablets of stone. The only law written on tablets of stone was the ten commandments

 

[james57]

James57 ,you are really messed up on your Bible, you have so little knowledge of the Whole teaching of the Bible ,this is why you make such stupid statements. like Rom.7&8 are pre,salvation to Paul/Saul. Rom. 6,7,8 is saved Paul reliving his conversion and christian maturity in ch.6,7&8.

You honestly believe Paul is speaking as a christian in Rom7:7-11?

 

[KennethC]

Although I take your point, sin grew in Paul because he strove for a law of righteousness before God. He was after all an ardent Pharisee, and Jesus referred to the Pharisees as being full of wickedness, hypocrisy and everything unclean on the inside. Paul believed the sinful passions in us are aroused by the law when you live under it rom7:5

It arises because it points out just how vial and enmity to God we were because of our sinful nature, we have to be reborn and learn a new nature of that of walking by the Spirit.

By the Spirit there is no condemnation because the fruit of the Spirit leads to obedience and not transgression, as Apostle Paul breaks down multiple times how we can and can not walk. He gives two lists more then once; One mentioning the fruit of the Spirit and the other the works of the flesh.

The works of the flesh are all sinful actions and those who do the things in that list he says will not inherit eternal life, those however that walk by the Spirit will inherit eternal life.

Jesus says the same thing John 5:29.......

 

[james57]

It arises because it points out just how vial and enmity to God we were because of our sinful nature, we have to be reborn and learn a new nature of that of walking by the Spirit.

By the Spirit there is no condemnation because the fruit of the Spirit leads to obedience and not transgression, as Apostle Paul breaks down multiple times how we can and can not walk. He gives two lists more then once; One mentioning the fruit of the Spirit and the other the works of the flesh.

The works of the flesh are all sinful actions and those who do the things in that list he says will not inherit eternal life, those however that walk by the Spirit will inherit eternal life.

Jesus says the same thing John 5:29.......

If you are saying obedience is to be achieved not by looking to the literal letter, but by the fruits of the spirit growing in us, I agree with you, for those fruits contradict none of Gods good and holy laws but is the embodiment of them