Loss of salvation???

[sawdust]

Christians can be legalistic. There is no doubt about that. This does not mean they lost their salvation. If so, the Galatians, Colossians, Romans, Ephesians, and Corinthians (and Peter and James) would have lost their salvation. And course-correction is not the same thing as getting saved again. Sadly, we see the evidence in our churches today that legalism has not been extinguished.

I'm not sure I am reading you right. If you think we can lose our salvation then read the next paragraph. If you're don't think we can lose our salvation then you can stop reading here and ignore the next bit.

Saved again? You are essentially saying Christ, who died for our sin, wasn't enough to save us eternally (we have been given eternal life). Once we are saved it's all up to us to maintain it and if we change our minds and die again, who now can save us? There is no "it is finished" with your logic, only punishing Christ for our sins over and over again for there is no other who can save.

 

[Lamar]

This has to be one of the saddest things a Christian can say. How can we have any assurance if our salvation depends on us?

No. The saddest thing is to hear "depart from me I never knew you". The last thing that people will hear when their "assurance" turns out to be simply "false assurance".

Where false assurance exist, real assurance can not.

Every person in every cult believes in their assurance.

 

[Inquisitor]

Yes, fallen from grace, not died and become unsaved once again.

Grace is God's power to achieve His will in a fallen world, given freely based on His character of love.

We walk by means of God's grace because the godly life we have been given cannot be achieved in our own power.

Even unbelievers are alive (physically) in this world by means of God's grace. The sun shines and the rain falls by means of God's grace.

Grace is God's policy of working in this world. Grace is where everything begins, for the unsaved, but especially for the saved.

Your not reading the text accurately.

You are ignoring the strong warning that Paul gave to the Galatians.

Galatians 5:18-21
But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the Law. Now the deeds of the flesh are evident, which are: sexual immorality, impurity, indecent behavior, idolatry, witchcraft, hostilities, strife, jealousy, outbursts of anger, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions, envy, drunkenness, carousing, and things like these, of which I forewarn you, just as I have forewarned you, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.

For are in direct conflict with Paul, for some reason, you cannot recognize the
warning.

I have forewarned you, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God

 

[Inquisitor]

I'm not sure I am reading you right. If you think we can lose our salvation then read the next paragraph. If you're don't think we can lose our salvation then you can stop reading here and ignore the next bit.

Saved again? You are essentially saying Christ, who died for our sin, wasn't enough to save us eternally (we have been given eternal life). Once we are saved it's all up to us to maintain it and if we change our minds and die again, who now can save us? There is no "it is finished" with your logic, only punishing Christ for our sins over and over again for there is no other who can save.

Your trying to say that when you become a Christian, that's it.

You can live any lifestyle you want as a Christian, go ahead and sin all
you want. That's what your saying.

In other words, Christ reconciled us and there is no response required
by us. We do not need to walk by the Holy Spirit?

Our God is holy, holy, holy!

 

[Inquisitor]

This has to be one of the saddest things a Christian can say. How can we have any assurance if our salvation depends on us? How do you boldly go before the throne of God if you are not even sure you are saved and belong to Him?

I want to weep from the depths of my soul for such insecurity in the face of the greatest security one can ever have, the word of God.

Take note of all Paul's warnings.

 

[sawdust]

You do not understand.

Again with the personal assumptions. What's more, that statement really means "you don't think as I do".

We are only saved by the grace of God.

Yes, and our salvation is maintained by grace not your legalistic approach to staying alive. How long do you think the everlasting life we have been given actually lasts? It seems not very long for some according to your thinking.

Yet, we are in a tremendous war as a Christian.

A battle between the Spirit within and our the desires of our flesh for one.

Many do not survive this first conflict.

We are also enlisted as soldiers in a lifelong battle with the forces of darkness.

The second conflict inflicts many casualties.

Paul told us that we would be persecuted and many folk cannot maintain that
trust in the Lord.

You're preaching to the choir mate but you are confusing overcoming with being saved from death. Again, you are placing Christ's victory over death second to our responsibility to God to walk by means of grace in faith. Christ won the victory over death. Once you are made alive you cannot die again. It is because you have this life, freely given, that you can even hope to overcome the enemy but I can assure you, even if you lose the battle and give up and lay down as if you are a dead man, Christ has not lost and therefore our salvation from death is secure.

Endurance to the end.

Yes, endurance to the end for rewards, salvation is not a reward, it is a gift. Paul ran the race to the end for a prize, not a gift.

You need to learn the differences.

 

[sawdust]

Your trying to say that when you become a Christian, that's it.

You can live any lifestyle you want as a Christian, go ahead and sin all
you want. That's what your saying.

In other words, Christ reconciled us and there is no response required
by us. We do not need to walk by the Holy Spirit?

Our God is holy, holy, holy!

No, you're thinking I'm saying that because you can't see past your own thinking. It has gone over your head the times I spoke of our responsibility to walk by means of grace, in the truth with the filling of the Holy Spirit and what happens if you don't walk according to God's plan.

 

[sawdust]

No. The saddest thing is to hear "depart from me I never knew you". The last thing that people will hear when their "assurance" turns out to be simply "false assurance".

Where false assurance exist, real assurance can not.

Every person in every cult believes in their assurance.

What are you talking about? These people never lost their salvation, they never had salvation to begin with.

Those who never get on the right train, never head in the right direction.

False assurance doesn't guarantee salvation anymore than your belief salvation can be lost guarantees losing it.

 

[sawdust]

Your not reading the text accurately.

Again telling me what I can and can't do when it really means I'm not being like you. Here's some news you may have missed. I have no intention of being like you, I desire and my only desire, is to be like Christ.

You are ignoring the strong warning that Paul gave to the Galatians.

Galatians 5:18-21
But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the Law. Now the deeds of the flesh are evident, which are: sexual immorality, impurity, indecent behavior, idolatry, witchcraft, hostilities, strife, jealousy, outbursts of anger, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions, envy, drunkenness, carousing, and things like these, of which I forewarn you, just as I have forewarned you, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.

For are in direct conflict with Paul, for some reason, you cannot recognize the
warning.

I have forewarned you, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God

I am reading the text correctly as I have learned from one who knows the Greek. The implication in Paul's "those who practice such things" is one who continually and habitually live in sin. The Christian cannot do this even if they wanted to because they come under discipline and life will be made miserable. If they persist in such an action then we are told to stop praying for them as God will take them home under the "sin unto death" principle.

Paul is warning the Galatians that God cannot be mocked, He knows who are His and who are not. Those who do not belong to God will perish.

 

[sawdust]

Take note of all Paul's warnings.

The irony is, the only way I can take note is to be alive in Christ in the first place. If I were not saved, most of God's word would go straight over my head. (1Cor.2:14)

 

[Prodigal]

I wonder if non believers ever come to this site? Surely they do. Or what about the new believer, or the brother or sister who is weak in the faith?

I'm trying to put myself in their shoes and imagine how they must perceive all of the disagreements they witness here.

If you were to ask 100 random Mormons or JW's what they believe, I would wager that 99 of them would give you the same answer. How is it that the cultists have their doctrines so buttoned down, but those of us who profess to have a personal relationship with Truth personified, can't come to agreement on even the most basic of biblical doctrines?

Are these arguments even necessary? Are we truly "earnestly contending for the faith", or is that just the cover we use to hide our arrogance and our pride? Why is it so important for us at times, self included, to convince someone that we are right and they are wrong? Do we ever take the time to examine our hearts or even our posts for that matter, to see if we are really walking in love towards our brothers and sisters, with gentleness and humility? Are we ever mindful that while all of us may not be at the same stage of our spiritual journey, we were all saved from the same corrupt nature, or redeemed by the same precious blood?

I get a little snarky sometimes. And I'm embarrassed to admit that on occasion I cross the line into rudeness. I've even caught myself making direct accusation against a brothers character or intelligence. This is shameful behavior and unworthy of anyone who names the name of Christ.

There are a hundred ways to call a man a fool. Can we be so focused on the warnings of Paul, that we completely neglect the warnings of the Lord Himself.

There is a time to speak and a time to keep silent. Do we allow the Holy Spirit to decide for us which is which? Or do we neglect His guidance altogether as we furiously hammer away at our keyboards with our latest argument or rebuttal, or not so cleverly concealed insult?

“If any man among you seem to be religious, and bridleth not his tongue, but deceiveth his own heart, this man's religion is vain.”

"Be not rash with thy mouth, and let not thine heart be hasty to utter anything before God. For God is in heaven and thou upon earth: therefore let thy words be few."

“If any man speak, let him speak as the oracles of God; if any man minister, let him do it as of the ability which God giveth: that God in all things may be glorified through Jesus Christ, to whom be praise and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.”

The tongue is an unruly member. If man is to give an account for every idle word he speaks, will he not give an account for every idle word he types as well? Does the anonymity the internet provides tempt us away from restraint? Would we speak to our brother in the same manner we do in this forum, were he standing directly before us?

I'm asking a lot of questions.
I am not pretending to have any answers. I do have my own thoughts on why these things are so, but I do not expect they would be all that well received.

So I'll just leave you with the questions. We are commanded to examine ourselves to see if we are in the faith. I believe it would serve us well to also examine ourselves to see if we are operating in love.

They will know we are Christians by our love. Please don't misunderstand me. I know the eternal significance of sound doctrine.


If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal. And if I have prophetic powers, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. If I give away all I have, and if I deliver up my body to be burned,but have not love, I gain nothing.
Love is patient and kind; love does not envy or boast; it is not arrogant or rude. It does not insist on its own way; it is not irritable or resentful; it does not rejoice at wrongdoing, but rejoices with the truth. Love bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things.
Love never ends. As for prophecies, they will pass away; as for tongues, they will cease; as for knowledge, it will pass away. For we know in part and we prophesy in part, but when the perfect comes, the partial will pass away. When I was a child, I spoke like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I gave up childish ways. For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I have been fully known.
So now faith, hope, and love abide, these three; but the greatest of these is love.

 

[sawdust]

I wonder if non believers ever come to this site? Surely they do. Or what about the new believer, or the brother or sister who is weak in the faith?

I'm trying to put myself in their shoes and imagine how they must perceive all of the disagreements they witness here.

If you were to ask 100 random Mormons or JW's what they believe, I would wager that 99 of them would give you the same answer. How is it that the cultists have their doctrines so buttoned down, but those of us who profess to have a personal relationship with Truth personified, can't come to agreement on even the most basic of biblical doctrines?

Are these arguments even necessary? Are we truly "earnestly contending for the faith", or is that just the cover we use to hide our arrogance and our pride? Why is it so important for us at times, self included, to convince someone that we are right and they are wrong? Do we ever take the time to examine our hearts or even our posts for that matter, to see if we are really walking in love towards our brothers and sisters, with gentleness and humility? Are we ever mindful that while all of us may not be at the same stage of our spiritual journey, we were all saved from the same corrupt nature, or redeemed by the same precious blood?

I get a little snarky sometimes. And I'm embarrassed to admit that on occasion I cross the line into rudeness. I've even caught myself making direct accusation against a brothers character or intelligence. This is shameful behavior and unworthy of anyone who names the name of Christ.

There are a hundred ways to call a man a fool. Can we be so focused on the warnings of Paul, that we completely neglect the warnings of the Lord Himself.

There is a time to speak and a time to keep silent. Do we allow the Holy Spirit to decide for us which is which? Or do we neglect His guidance altogether as we furiously hammer away at our keyboards with our latest argument or rebuttal, or not so cleverly concealed insult?

“If any man among you seem to be religious, and bridleth not his tongue, but deceiveth his own heart, this man's religion is vain.”

"Be not rash with thy mouth, and let not thine heart be hasty to utter anything before God. For God is in heaven and thou upon earth: therefore let thy words be few."

“If any man speak, let him speak as the oracles of God; if any man minister, let him do it as of the ability which God giveth: that God in all things may be glorified through Jesus Christ, to whom be praise and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.”

The tongue is an unruly member. If man is to give an account for every idle word he speaks, will he not give an account for every idle word he types as well? Does the anonymity the internet provides tempt us away from restraint? Would we speak to our brother in the same manner we do in this forum, were he standing directly before us?

I'm asking a lot of questions.
I am not pretending to have any answers. I do have my own thoughts on why these things are so, but I do not expect they would be all that well received.

So I'll just leave you with the questions. We are commanded to examine ourselves to see if we are in the faith. I believe it would serve us well to also examine ourselves to see if we are operating in love.

They will know we are Christians by our love. Please don't misunderstand me. I know the eternal significance of sound doctrine.


If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal. And if I have prophetic powers, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. If I give away all I have, and if I deliver up my body to be burned,but have not love, I gain nothing.
Love is patient and kind; love does not envy or boast; it is not arrogant or rude. It does not insist on its own way; it is not irritable or resentful; it does not rejoice at wrongdoing, but rejoices with the truth. Love bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things.
Love never ends. As for prophecies, they will pass away; as for tongues, they will cease; as for knowledge, it will pass away. For we know in part and we prophesy in part, but when the perfect comes, the partial will pass away. When I was a child, I spoke like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I gave up childish ways. For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I have been fully known.
So now faith, hope, and love abide, these three; but the greatest of these is love.

We are all a Work in Progress. In many ways, irrespective of one's motive for contending, it enables us all to learn how to love one another and sorts the wheat from the chaff, so to speak.

1 Corinthians 11:19
No doubt there have to be differences among you to show which of you have God’s approval.

Don't be too discouraged, take it as an opportunity to learn and if it gets too much, step away for a time.

There are principles to follow when disputing like not enforcing your belief on a weaker brother or not entering into foolish disputes but there are some things that must be contended for not matter how painful it may become.

Romans 14:1
Receive one who is weak in the faith, but not to disputes over doubtful things.

2 Timothy 2:23
But avoid foolish and ignorant disputes, knowing that they generate strife.

I consider this topic essential to right thinking, especially for new Christians, that they may know their salvation from death is secure in Christ so that their security motivates them to appreciate the depth, heights and breadth of the grace so freely given to them.

 

[Mii]

So, I'm saved. That means I can live as I wish and not worry if what I do is contrary to Gods Word. I do not have to worry about obeying God/Jesus, because I'm saved.

Hey, that's good to know!

Well, I don't know the poster but I'm confused.

There was not a single thing that lent itself to licentiousness and seemed like just an exhortation to walk in maturity ...like feeling that you are drowning in 3 feet of water, well...stand up? Oh you aren't drowning? Ok, help someone who is REALLY hurting and in need.


My take away at least. If it's an OSAS debate then I'm uninterested.

 

[NewLifeInChrist]

You are contradicting Paul's warning to the Galatians.

Galatians 3:1-2
You foolish Galatians, who has bewitched you, before whose eyes Jesus Christ
was publicly portrayed as crucified? This is the only thing I want to find out from you
did you receive the Spirit by works of the Law, or by hearing with faith?

Legalism is entrenched in the older traditional churches.

According to Paul, the law, the works of the law, consist of our attempt
to be righteous. The bearing of the fruit of the Holy Spirit is the Christian
life.

Actually, I understand the book of Galatians pretty well. I once understood it from a legalistic perspective to not apply to me, but then I began to trust the Lord as He led me to the correct perspective. It took a long time (and much anguish) to unwind the many false notions I had about Galatians (and legalism in general). But now I have no trouble standing fast in the liberty that Christ won for me.

 

[NewLifeInChrist]

I'm not sure I am reading you right. If you think we can lose our salvation then read the next paragraph. If you're don't think we can lose our salvation then you can stop reading here and ignore the next bit.

Saved again? You are essentially saying Christ, who died for our sin, wasn't enough to save us eternally (we have been given eternal life). Once we are saved it's all up to us to maintain it and if we change our minds and die again, who now can save us? There is no "it is finished" with your logic, only punishing Christ for our sins over and over again for there is no other who can save.

No, I'm solidly in the eternal security camp. I was just opposing (poorly) the false notion that a person loses his salvation and must be saved again when he adopts a legalistic approach to Christian living. It should be obvious that Paul was telling them that their actions made them look like they were lost, not that they had lost their salvation...

2 This only I want to learn from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?—3 Are you so foolish? Having begun in the Spirit, are you now being made perfect by the flesh? 4 Have you suffered so many things in vain—if indeed it was in vain? (Ga 3:2–4)​

 

[Inquisitor]

Again with the personal assumptions. What's more, that statement really means "you don't think as I do".



Yes, and our salvation is maintained by grace not your legalistic approach to staying alive. How long do you think the everlasting life we have been given actually lasts? It seems not very long for some according to your thinking.



You're preaching to the choir mate but you are confusing overcoming with being saved from death. Again, you are placing Christ's victory over death second to our responsibility to God to walk by means of grace in faith. Christ won the victory over death. Once you are made alive you cannot die again. It is because you have this life, freely given, that you can even hope to overcome the enemy but I can assure you, even if you lose the battle and give up and lay down as if you are a dead man, Christ has not lost and therefore our salvation from death is secure.



Yes, endurance to the end for rewards, salvation is not a reward, it is a gift. Paul ran the race to the end for a prize, not a gift.

You need to learn the differences.

Can you explain the following verse given that you believe OSAS?

Galatians 5:4
You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by the Law;
you have fallen from grace.

"severed from Christ"

"fallen from grace"

Why does God torture folk by leading them into grace then discarding them?

 

[Inquisitor]

No, I'm solidly in the eternal security camp. I was just opposing (poorly) the false notion that a person loses his salvation and must be saved again when he adopts a legalistic approach to Christian living. It should be obvious that Paul was telling them that their actions made them look like they were lost, not that they had lost their salvation...

2 This only I want to learn from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?—3 Are you so foolish? Having begun in the Spirit, are you now being made perfect by the flesh? 4 Have you suffered so many things in vain—if indeed it was in vain? (Ga 3:2–4)​

The Galatians had been deceived and were following the law.

The Galatians had been deceived, they had been bewitched.

Paul's warning was a very serious warning.

Severed from Christ, fallen from grace, it did not "look like" the Galatian church
had fallen from grace. The Galatian church had already fallen from grace.

We know from church history that the law was well in place across the
entire western world. All the churches were eventually deceived.

 

[Inquisitor]

Actually, I understand the book of Galatians pretty well. I once understood it from a legalistic perspective to not apply to me, but then I began to trust the Lord as He led me to the correct perspective. It took a long time (and much anguish) to unwind the many false notions I had about Galatians (and legalism in general). But now I have no trouble standing fast in the liberty that Christ won for me.

You have been released from legalism and that is fantastic.

It is always encouraging to hear from someone who has escaped that yoke of slavery.

1 Corinthians 2-5
And when I came to you, brothers and sisters, I did not come as someone superior
in speaking ability or wisdom, as I proclaimed to you the testimony of God. For I
determined to know nothing among you except Jesus Christ, and Him crucified.
I also was with you in weakness and fear, and in great trembling, and my message
and my preaching were not in persuasive words of wisdom, but in demonstration
of the Spirit and of power, so that your faith would not rest on the wisdom of mankind,
but on the power of God.

The gospel is short and sweet.

For I
I determined to know nothing among you except Jesus Christ, and Him crucified.

 

[Inquisitor]

I wonder if non believers ever come to this site? Surely they do. Or what about the new believer, or the brother or sister who is weak in the faith?

I'm trying to put myself in their shoes and imagine how they must perceive all of the disagreements they witness here.

If you were to ask 100 random Mormons or JW's what they believe, I would wager that 99 of them would give you the same answer. How is it that the cultists have their doctrines so buttoned down, but those of us who profess to have a personal relationship with Truth personified, can't come to agreement on even the most basic of biblical doctrines?

Are these arguments even necessary? Are we truly "earnestly contending for the faith", or is that just the cover we use to hide our arrogance and our pride? Why is it so important for us at times, self included, to convince someone that we are right and they are wrong? Do we ever take the time to examine our hearts or even our posts for that matter, to see if we are really walking in love towards our brothers and sisters, with gentleness and humility? Are we ever mindful that while all of us may not be at the same stage of our spiritual journey, we were all saved from the same corrupt nature, or redeemed by the same precious blood?

I get a little snarky sometimes. And I'm embarrassed to admit that on occasion I cross the line into rudeness. I've even caught myself making direct accusation against a brothers character or intelligence. This is shameful behavior and unworthy of anyone who names the name of Christ.

There are a hundred ways to call a man a fool. Can we be so focused on the warnings of Paul, that we completely neglect the warnings of the Lord Himself.

There is a time to speak and a time to keep silent. Do we allow the Holy Spirit to decide for us which is which? Or do we neglect His guidance altogether as we furiously hammer away at our keyboards with our latest argument or rebuttal, or not so cleverly concealed insult?

“If any man among you seem to be religious, and bridleth not his tongue, but deceiveth his own heart, this man's religion is vain.”

"Be not rash with thy mouth, and let not thine heart be hasty to utter anything before God. For God is in heaven and thou upon earth: therefore let thy words be few."

“If any man speak, let him speak as the oracles of God; if any man minister, let him do it as of the ability which God giveth: that God in all things may be glorified through Jesus Christ, to whom be praise and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.”

The tongue is an unruly member. If man is to give an account for every idle word he speaks, will he not give an account for every idle word he types as well? Does the anonymity the internet provides tempt us away from restraint? Would we speak to our brother in the same manner we do in this forum, were he standing directly before us?

I'm asking a lot of questions.
I am not pretending to have any answers. I do have my own thoughts on why these things are so, but I do not expect they would be all that well received.

So I'll just leave you with the questions. We are commanded to examine ourselves to see if we are in the faith. I believe it would serve us well to also examine ourselves to see if we are operating in love.

They will know we are Christians by our love. Please don't misunderstand me. I know the eternal significance of sound doctrine.


If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal. And if I have prophetic powers, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. If I give away all I have, and if I deliver up my body to be burned,but have not love, I gain nothing.
Love is patient and kind; love does not envy or boast; it is not arrogant or rude. It does not insist on its own way; it is not irritable or resentful; it does not rejoice at wrongdoing, but rejoices with the truth. Love bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things.
Love never ends. As for prophecies, they will pass away; as for tongues, they will cease; as for knowledge, it will pass away. For we know in part and we prophesy in part, but when the perfect comes, the partial will pass away. When I was a child, I spoke like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I gave up childish ways. For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I have been fully known.
So now faith, hope, and love abide, these three; but the greatest of these is love.

Your choice, walk by the power of the Holy Sprit or walk by the flesh.

 

[Inquisitor]

Again telling me what I can and can't do when it really means I'm not being like you. Here's some news you may have missed. I have no intention of being like you, I desire and my only desire, is to be like Christ.



I am reading the text correctly as I have learned from one who knows the Greek. The implication in Paul's "those who practice such things" is one who continually and habitually live in sin. The Christian cannot do this even if they wanted to because they come under discipline and life will be made miserable. If they persist in such an action then we are told to stop praying for them as God will take them home under the "sin unto death" principle.

Paul is warning the Galatians that God cannot be mocked, He knows who are His and who are not. Those who do not belong to God will perish.

I don't think that a Christian that habitually lives in sin is saved. Especially if they have
been strongly disciplined by the Lord for their sin.