Loss of salvation???

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Oct 19, 2024
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The short story: He accepted Christ, believed and followed Him. He was real, alive, and growing for God. Then various circumstances came into the picture (of which I shall not go into here), and he gradually got entangled in first humanism, then atheism, and later Islam, and others. Sad story . . .
Well, in my case I had been raised as a Christian but knew very little from attending Sunday School and church services weekly beyond the basic Gospel, so when a missionary's daughter became an atheist and I learned that my favorite HS English teacher had been a minister but was now an agnostic, it caused me to wonder why, but I began seeking answers and some of them are these:

Atheists claim there is no more evidence for the existence of God, the Creator and Judge of humanity, than for the reality of obviously fictional entities, such as Odin or unicorns. However, four types of evidence or reasoning may be viewed as supporting rational belief in God, although they do not prove He exists: the unique universe, theocentric human history, existential need and moral conscience.

Current scientific theory states that the universe began with a “bang”, when a marble of matter or a singularity of energy suddenly exploded, and that it will end with a “whimper” when the stars eventually fade to darkness. This unique universe theory is compatible or consistent with belief in a God who created the universe “ex nihilo”, who sustains it by His power, and who will judge its moral agents at the end of time.

Current knowledge of world history suggests that humanity descended from one genetic source and evolved into various cultures. Throughout history humanity has perceived deity to be the ground of meaning and morality. Theocentric history reached its apex or spiritual climax with the NT teaching that there is one almighty and all-loving God, who desires all humanity to live in harmony on earth and also in heaven, and who allows humanity to experience earthly existence including pain and disappointment (KOTH) for the purpose of teaching them their need for Him (cf. HB 12:10).

Current existential reality indicates that mortals need God in order to obtain immortality, that morality needs God for a universal imperative and ultimate justice, and that the NT offers the best hope that this “duo of desirables” (DOD) or heaven and justice/hell can be attained. Just as physical needs are satisfied by material realities, perhaps our metaphysical needs indicate the reality of supernatural solutions (the God of the DOD).

Moral conscience indicates and logically requires accountability to a moral authority, and the supreme Authority would be God. Paul wrote (in RM 1:32 & 2:15) that people “know God’s decree that those who do evil deserve death” and that their consciences “show that the requirements of the [God’s moral] law are written on their hearts.” Our feeble attempts at earthly justice may reflect or serve as evidence of God’s perfect justice. This view is similar to Platonic idealism (cf. 1CR 13:12, HB 8:5, 9:23 & 10:1). We may perceive perfect justice partially (1CR 13:9-12) using spiritual eyes/intuition/a sixth sense along with inference, logic, and even imagination. [Slashes indicate essentially equivalent terms.]

This evidence is not proof, but because this hope and belief are based on evidence and logic, it is rational rather than “blind”, and it is made even more intellectually reasonable or defensible by acknowledging ways God would be disproved, which include the following:

1. If atheists or anti-christians created eternal life, because the Bible teaches that eternal life is God’s gift only to believers in Him (JN 3:16).

2. If the body of Jesus of Nazareth were discovered in a tomb, because Paul stated that if Christ is not resurrected, then faith is useless (1CR 15:14).

3. If it were proven that moral free will (MFW) is an illusion, because the premise of biblical morality is that human souls are accountable (DT 30:19-20).

4. If human-like beings on another planet had no salvation history involving God and Christ, because the Bible teaches that God is Lord of all (PHP 2:9-11). (Caveat: If they are included in the Great Commission, their history would be like the OT.)

5. If God could prove His existence to people without abrogating free will (cf. 2CR 5:7), but apparently God performs miracles only as necessary to accomplish His plan of salvation.

6. If it were proved that the universe is not created, because resurrection or re-creation presupposes creation and thus a Creator (ACTS 17:24-31).

But atheism has not proven these. Thus, both theism and atheism are unproven opinions or opposite subjective conclusions requiring faith concerning ultimate reality. However, the NT teaches there will come a time—at the resurrection or eschaton—when the proof atheists demand will be provided, and KOTH will end. At that time theism will be revealed as the right or true ideology as souls reap the opposite destinies of heaven and hell in accordance with their moral choices, beginning with their decision whether to love or to disregard God (cf. MT 7:24-27) .
 
Feb 17, 2023
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The short story: He accepted Christ, believed and followed Him. He was real, alive, and growing for God. Then various circumstances came into the picture (of which I shall not go into here), and he gradually got entangled in first humanism, then atheism, and later Islam, and others. Sad story . . .

My sister was seeking the Lord when she was a teenager - reading the Bible and praying. But she never did get saved. Then a few years later, I was seeking God too - except I DID get saved. I asked God what had happened with my sister that she didn't get saved? He laid it on my heart that she had preconceived ideas about Him and she never found that version of Him.

That could be what happened? He had preconceived ideas about God and that's why he's all over the map looking for Him everywhere and nowhere? My sister still seeks God, I think partly because she sees me continue to live in fellowship with the Lord so she might be thinking there is something to my own salvation. I will pray for him as I also pray for my sister. They're both alive so there's still the hope they will come around to accepting the real God - the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit.


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Oct 19, 2024
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My sister was seeking the Lord when she was a teenager - reading the Bible and praying. But she never did get saved. Then a few years later, I was seeking God too - except I DID get saved. I asked God what had happened with my sister that she didn't get saved? He laid it on my heart that she had preconceived ideas about Him and she never found that version of Him.

That could be what happened? He had preconceived ideas about God and that's why he's all over the map looking for Him everywhere and nowhere? My sister still seeks God, I think partly because she sees me continue to live in fellowship with the Lord so she might be thinking there is something to my own salvation. I will pray for him as I also pray for my sister. They're both alive so there's still the hope they will come around to accepting the real God - the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit.


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Do you know what her preconceptions were?
 
Feb 17, 2023
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Do you know what her preconceptions were?

I think she was seeking instant answers - I'm thinking she just wanted help, but not necessarily wanted to get to know God for Himself.

She was unitarian for a while and was active in it but it's because she just likes church life without the commitment to God. Now she left it and is considering genuinely Christian churches so hopefully she is willing to get to know God, how much He loves her and what He did for her on the cross. i just have to keep praying for her and living out my testimony to her.


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Oct 19, 2024
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I think she was seeking instant answers - I'm thinking she just wanted help, but not necessarily wanted to get to know God for Himself.

She was unitarian for a while and was active in it but it's because she just likes church life without the commitment to God. Now she left it and is considering genuinely Christian churches so hopefully she is willing to get to know God, how much He loves her and what He did for her on the cross. i just have to keep praying for her and living out my testimony to her.


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Yes, although God gives salvation the instant a person accepts Christ, sometimes Christians give the impression that God will give instant answers to other problems, when what is needed is a slow learning of GW to serve as a reservoir from which to draw in times of trouble.

Yes, perhaps no one was able to explain how one God relates to humanity in three ways, and unitarianism does not explain it either. Perhaps she would be helped by reading the first two lessons on our website: The Best Belief and The Christian Creed.
(At least they provide answers to questions I had :^)
 

studier

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So, I'm curious about why you think Paul would summarize out something as important as that one element that Peter preached to Israel before the fall of Israel.
I don't know what else I can tell you after all the things I've already said re: 1Cor15. IMO it's not Paul's full Gospel. When Paul was traveling, teaching, evangelizing we have a record of what he was saying to Jews and Gentiles:

Acts13:16-44 Then Paul stood up, and motioning with his hand said, "Men of Israel, and you who fear God, listen:
  • Paul is speaking to Jews and God-fearing Gentiles
17 "The God of this people Israel chose our fathers, and exalted the people when they dwelt as strangers in the land of Egypt, and with an uplifted arm He brought them out of it.
18 "Now for a time of about forty years He put up with their ways in the wilderness.
19 "And when He had destroyed seven nations in the land of Canaan, He distributed their land to them by allotment.
20 "After that He gave them judges for about four hundred and fifty years, until Samuel the prophet.
21 "And afterward they asked for a king; so God gave them Saul the son of Kish, a man of the tribe of Benjamin, for forty years.
22 "And when He had removed him, He raised up for them David as king, to whom also He gave testimony and said, 'I have found David the son of Jesse, a man after My own heart, who will do all My will.'
  • Davidic Covenant - Eternal Davidic Kingship
23 "From this man's seed, according to the promise, God raised up for Israel a Savior-- Jesus--
  • Davidic lineage - Eternal Davidic King
  • Savior
  • Messiah
24 "after John had first preached, before His coming, the baptism of repentance to all the people of Israel.
  • {For your benefit} John & the baptism of repentance to Israel
25 "And as John was finishing his course, he said, 'Who do you think I am? I am not He. But behold, there comes One after me, the sandals of whose feet I am not worthy to loose.'
  • John the herald of the coming King
26 "Men and brethren, sons of the family of Abraham, and those among you who fear God, to you the word of this salvation has been sent.
  • To the Abrahamic lineage
  • To the nations/Gentiles who fear God
  • The message of Salvation
27 "For those who dwell in Jerusalem, and their rulers, because they did not know Him, nor even the voices of the Prophets which are read every Sabbath, have fulfilled them in condemning Him.
  • Condemning Messiah Jesus - fulfillment of prophecy
28 "And though they found no cause for death in Him, they asked Pilate that He should be put to death.
  • No crime (no sin) - Messiah Jesus' death (1Cor15:3-6)
29 "Now when they had fulfilled all that was written concerning Him, they took Him down from the tree and laid Him in a tomb.
  • All prophecy re: Him fulfilled
  • The Cross
  • Burial (1Cor15:3-6)
30 "But God raised Him from the dead.
31 "He was seen for many days by those who came up with Him from Galilee to Jerusalem, who are His witnesses to the people.
32 "And we declare to you glad tidings-- that promise which was made to the fathers.
  • The Good News - the Gospel (1Cor15:1-6)
  • Promised to the Jews Fathers
33 "God has fulfilled this for us their children, in that He has raised up Jesus. As it is also written in the second Psalm: 'You are My Son, Today I have begotten You.'
  • Resurrected Jesus (1Cor15:1-6)
  • The second Psalm - teaches re: YHWH's Anointed/Messiah/Christ - YHWH's King who inherits the earth - The King of kings who you'd best kiss lest He be angry
34 "And that He raised Him from the dead, no more to return to corruption, He has spoken thus: 'I will give you the sure mercies of David.'
35 "Therefore He also says in another Psalm: 'You will not allow Your Holy One to see corruption.'
36 "For David, after he had served his own generation by the will of God, fell asleep, was buried with his fathers, and saw corruption;
37 "but He whom God raised up saw no corruption.
38 "Therefore let it be known to you, brethren, that through this Man is preached to you the forgiveness of sins;
39 "and by Him everyone who believes is justified from all things from which you could not be justified by the law of Moses.
40 "Beware therefore, lest what has been spoken in the prophets come upon you:
  • Warning re: not believing
41 "Behold, you despisers, Marvel and perish! For I work a work in your days, A work which you will by no means believe, Though one were to declare it to you.'"
  • Hab1:5 - they've now been told so believe or else
42 So when the Jews went out of the synagogue, the Gentiles begged that these words might be preached to them the next Sabbath.
43 Now when the congregation had broken up, many of the Jews and devout proselytes followed Paul and Barnabas, who, speaking to them, persuaded them to continue in the grace of God.
44 On the next Sabbath almost the whole city came together to hear the word of God.

  • Through Luke's record we can continue to track Paul's work and continued reasoning in synagogues (to the Jew first) with Jews and God-fearing Gentiles
  • In Acts18 Paul is in Corinth and being compelled to focus on Jesus = Christ which he refers to in 1Cor3:10-11 as the only foundation. He remained there for 1.5 years teaching the Word of God Acts18:11.
  • When Paul speaks in 1Cor3:14 of having baptized Crispus and Gaius it looks to me like Crispus was the ruler of the synagogue Acts18:8 who Paul baptized at the time "many of the Corinthians [when] hearing were believing and being baptized". Gaius looks to be a Macedonian who became one of Paul's traveling companions Acts19:9 a Jew or Gentile I'm not looking into more deeply.
  • IMO it's very simple to see that Paul in 1Cor15:1-6 is referring back to his evangelizing and teaching recorded in Acts. After reading this record it seems simple to see that Paul is simple pointing back to what he had taught in Corinth per Acts and that his teaching was extensively reasoned and of content from the Hebrew Scriptures mainly instructing of who and what Messiah is and who is Messiah. He taught there for 1.5 years.
  • The foundation of the Gospel Paul was proclaiming among Jews and Gentiles is that Jesus is the Christ, and the Christ is the Eternal Davidic King and inherits the earth from YHWH. And Messiah Jesus is the Savior of/from Israel proclaimed to Jews and Gentiles. And Messiah Jesus as proclaimed in the Prophets died on a tree for our sins, was buried and was resurrected. All of this is in the record of Acts and is highlighted in summary form in 1Cor15:1-6 (except for the name Jesus) as Paul lays the groundwork for his extensive instruction (again!) and reasoning on resurrection which some were apparently being swayed from (1Cor15:33...)
  • Paul had apparently baptized only on a few occasions, but many in Corinth were being baptized. Paul does not have to summarize everything in 1Cor15 in order to set up a discussion re: resurrection (There's no reason to repeat this anymore). It looks to me based upon the record in Acts and Paul's statements re: baptism, that baptism was clearly taking place in Paul's ministry travels and that he's glad he hadn't personally baptized many so they couldn't be playing their infantile games of favoritism of God's fellow-workers in their coming to Faith and being taught in the Faith. He doesn't say anything one way or another re: baptism in 1Cor3 and baptism was clearly being done.
cont'd
 

studier

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cont'd

As for the "baptism of repentance" to Israel, I'm sure there is some discussion to be had about it. But Paul's proclamation was clearly based in Israel's history re: Israel's Messiah whose ministry would be to Jews and Gentiles. The only reason we're not teaching like Paul and making clear what "Christ" means IMO is because we're intent on dumbing down the message to its summary and thereby not making clear who and what Jesus is and thus what our required orientation is to Him as the one with all authority in Heaven and on earth - IOW we're staring the building with no foundation (1Cor15 does not explain "Christ" - the only foundation - because the Corinthian Christians had already been taught who and what Christ is) and not including the warning Paul ended with in Acts13:40-41 to believe or else:
  • NKJ Luke6:46-49"But why do you call Me 'Lord, Lord,' and do not do the things which I say? 47 "Whoever comes to Me, and hears My sayings and does them, I will show you whom he is like: 48 "He is like a man building a house, who dug deep and laid the foundation on the rock. And when the flood arose, the stream beat vehemently against that house, and could not shake it, for it was founded on the rock. 49 "But he who heard and did nothing is like a man who built a house on the earth without a foundation, against which the stream beat vehemently; and immediately it fell. And the ruin of that house was great." (Lk. 6:46-49 NKJ)
  • NKJ Matt7:22-29 "Many will say to Me in that day, 'Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?' 23 "And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!' 24 "Therefore whoever hears these sayings of Mine, and does them, I will liken him to a wise man who built his house on the rock: 25 "and the rain descended, the floods came, and the winds blew and beat on that house; and it did not fall, for it was founded on the rock. 26 "But everyone who hears these sayings of Mine, and does not do them, will be like a foolish man who built his house on the sand: 27 "and the rain descended, the floods came, and the winds blew and beat on that house; and it fell. And great was its fall." 28 And so it was, when Jesus had ended these sayings, that the people were astonished at His teaching, 29 for He taught them as one having authority, and not as the scribes.
 

studier

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because she just likes church life without the commitment to God
Makes sense. And a lot of church life and experience has been structured to provide a comfortable and entertaining life for such people but how many of them are truly coming to saving Faith has been a topic of discussion and debate for a long time.

I was on a plane once and heard an older lady talking a young man about church and her evangelism essentially boiled down to, 'you should come to our church. You can be busy 7 days a week. We have all of these [social] things to do..."
 

studier

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@Musicmaster

Some typos editing below:

When Paul speaks in 1Cor1:14 of having baptized Crispus and Gaius it looks to me like Crispus was the ruler of the synagogue Acts18:8 who Paul baptized at the time "many of the Corinthians [when] hearing were believing and being baptized". Gaius looks to be a Macedonian who became one of Paul's traveling companions Acts19:29 a Jew or Gentile I'm not looking into more deeply.
 

Musicmaster

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I don't know what else I can tell you after all the things I've already said re: 1Cor15. IMO it's not Paul's full Gospel. When Paul was traveling, teaching, evangelizing we have a record of what he was saying to Jews and Gentiles:
That lengthy copy-n-paste did contain the usual fare of replacement theology elements, which includes the practice of jamming Gentiles under the same umbrellas of things that pertained only to Israel; which is not necessarily replacement so much as it is mix-n-match adoptions of things that don't apply to us today. As the old saying goes - which forces upon us the fact that we ALL are dispensational - all of scripture is for us and our understanding of the things of the Lord, but not all was written TO us. None of us runs out and offers up animal sacrifices when we sin...

So, all that diversion away from Paul's actual statements as to what pertains to us today, John the Baptist also was under the Law, as was Jesus and His disciples, so that's all apples to oranges comparison given that we are not in nor of Israel. Israel is still fallen, but will be restored after they pass through the fires of the tribulation where 2/3rds of every Jew in Israel will be killed up to the point of Christ's second coming to save them from total annihilation.

So, again, where did Paul command water baptism?

Where did the eleven command faith in the death, burial and resurrection of Christ on the third day as the focus of their faith for salvation without the requirements for water baptism?

What they were told is to change their minds (repent) within the stated context of Messiah having already come as opposed to still waiting for Him to come?

Peter's Gospel did not require the Israelites to believe in the death, burial and resurrection of Christ on the third day at the level of detail Paul laid out to the Corinthians in the place you claimed he was merely summarizing? The meticulous nature of his treatise to them does not at all hint at his merely summarizing to the point of leaving out any other element necessary for salvation, thus the gross distortions within your claim for his allegedly summarizing given that we have no reason to believe that Paul would have such a horrific omission.

The historic reality is that, as I had mentioned to you before, neither those Gentiles nor Jews were walking about with Bibles in their satchels to pull out and study. The majority heard by ear and took it to heart.

MM
 

Musicmaster

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@Musicmaster

Some typos editing below:
No problem.

Yes, Paul at the start did baptize some, but 99% of all he preached to were not baptized by him those who had ever been baptized. The texts lead to no other conclusion.

1 Corinthians 1:14-17
14 I thank God that I baptized none of you, but Crispus and Gaius;
15 Lest any should say that I had baptized in mine own name.
16 And I baptized also the household of Stephanas: besides, I know not whether I baptized any other.
17 For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect.

John the Baptist baptized unknown thousands, taking that upon himself as it was mandatory under the Kingdom Gospel, all while preaching. Paul, on the other hand, if baptism were mandatory under the Gospel of Grace, he would not have left that undone, which is the case for the majority of those to whom he preached, as the verses above give ample reason for us to believe. If one is going to claim that his workers who followed him about did all that for him, where's the proof in the text, because it makes no mention of any such thing apart from someone mentally injecting that into the text.

Furthermore, if Christ deemed it a requirement for us to be water baptized under the Gospel of Grace, then verse 17 would be a very strange and out-of-place statement indeed within a systematic study of this topic, thus ripping us out from under the salvation by grace. That would violate the very foundational definition from the Bible for what constitutes salvation by grace.

Yes, there are a number of people out there, generally speaking, who like to play word games by switching definitions to try and make it all mesh with their personal interpretations, which is a futile game. Unmerited favor predicated upon a requirement for the work of water baptism, that's another one of those dichotomies that many inject into the texts.

Rightly dividing the word of truth is a matter of dividing truth from truth, not truth from falsehood, for there are no falsehoods taught within scripture; meaning that not all truth in the scriptures pertain to us today, but that fact escapes many who want to try and force us under the demands and commands that do not at all pertain to us today who are under grace. That is one rudiment among several that have arisen from replacement theology.

MM
 

Gideon300

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Isa 53 :7~~
He was oppressed and afflicted, Yet He did not open His mouth; Like a lamb that is led to slaughter, And like a sheep that is silent before its shearers, So He did not open His mouth.

The Lord Jesus Christ was not worried or concerned about what HE had to go through. He was concerned about what we possibly have to go through. The Lord Jesus Christ was never concerned About Himself.......He was concerned about US.

Luke 23:34
Jesus said, “Father, forgive them, for they do not know what they are doing.” And they divided up his clothes by casting lots.

The Lord Jesus Christ sweated blood for His concern for mankind.....Not for what He had to go through for mankind.
In Hebrews we read that Jesus despised (or scorned) the shame. (12:2). Isaiah 53 tells us what Jesus endured. We also know that Jesus asked if the cup could pass Him by. I don't agree with what you've said. It's more glory to Jesus that He accepted God's will, even though He, the truly innocent, faced the death of the worst kind of criminal.

"For we do not have a high priest who is unable to sympathize with our weaknesses, but we have one who was tempted in every way that we are, yet was without sin." (Hebrews 4:15)
 

studier

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That lengthy copy-n-paste
Copy and paste meaning Scripture?

the usual fare of replacement theology elements
From your reading into it only.

None of us runs out and offers up animal sacrifices when we sin...
Not meaningful to the discussion.

So, all that diversion away from Paul's actual statements as to what pertains to us today
Sure - Diversion by showing how and where Acts aligns perfectly with 1Cor.

So, again, where did Paul command water baptism?
Where does he say it isn't part of the Faith? He obviously didn't have an issue with it except for the way infantile Christians were applying it. When he does speak of it is it entirely clear that he is excluding the physical act?

From what I'm seeing you really don't do much work in Scripture. Why don't you just link me to one of the systematic theologies you've learned from - maybe one of the charts and diagrams you've gotten from other's work - or to your site or blog or whatever i was that you mentioned somewhere and I asked you to provide the link which you never did?

Where did the eleven command faith in the death, burial and resurrection of Christ on the third day as the focus of their faith for salvation without the requirements for water baptism?
The way I read Peter in early Acts he and Paul are speaking very similarly re: Jesus being the Christ and his death, burial, and resurrection and then believers are being baptized. You can (?) provide some actual work in Scripture to prove me wrong if you'd like to?

What they were told is to change their minds (repent) within the stated context of Messiah having already come as opposed to still waiting for Him to come?
So now we get into the repentance issue. Sorry, but apart from your providing the Scripture and interpretations of how you read them in context, there's not much to talk about.

Sorry, but I'm used to reading and doing more detailed work on such issues, such as looking at each and every mention of repentance and of words closely related to it. Basically, everything you say is unsubstantiated.

Peter's Gospel did not require the Israelites to believe in the death, burial and resurrection of Christ on the third day at the level of detail Paul laid out to the Corinthians in the place you claimed he was merely summarizing? The meticulous nature of his treatise to them does not at all hint at his merely summarizing to the point of leaving out any other element necessary for salvation, thus the gross distortions within your claim for his allegedly summarizing given that we have no reason to believe that Paul would have such a horrific omission.

Partially answered above re: Peter in early Acts.

You speak of meticulous nature, but your posts are far from meticulous in any respect.

The repeated allegation of a "horrific omission" is just a way to characterize things to go along with your unsubstantiated 2 gospel theory which you are far from proving. I'll listen, but you're going to have to do more than write empty narratives.
 
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Makes sense. And a lot of church life and experience has been structured to provide a comfortable and entertaining life for such people but how many of them are truly coming to saving Faith has been a topic of discussion and debate for a long time.

I was on a plane once and heard an older lady talking a young man about church and her evangelism essentially boiled down to, 'you should come to our church. You can be busy 7 days a week. We have all of these [social] things to do..."
Do you think that is why the element of the SHOW (the stage smoke, the multi-colored lights, the elaborate sound systems) have expanded more and more while prayer and scripture exposition has contracted? One thing I learned from the Messianic Congregations is their tradition of holding yeshiva - "sitting down" together for extended study. A. W. Tozer once said "I deny that I teach 'over my congregation's head" I might preach THROUGH them if there is nothing there to stop it.
 

Musicmaster

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Copy and paste meaning Scripture?



From your reading into it only.



Not meaningful to the discussion.



Sure - Diversion by showing how and where Acts aligns perfectly with 1Cor.



Where does he say it isn't part of the Faith? He obviously didn't have an issue with it except for the way infantile Christians were applying it. When he does speak of it is it entirely clear that he is excluding the physical act?

From what I'm seeing you really don't do much work in Scripture. Why don't you just link me to one of the systematic theologies you've learned from - maybe one of the charts and diagrams you've gotten from other's work - or to your site or blog or whatever i was that you mentioned somewhere and I asked you to provide the link which you never did?



The way I read Peter in early Acts he and Paul are speaking very similarly re: Jesus being the Christ and his death, burial, and resurrection and then believers are being baptized. You can (?) provide some actual work in Scripture to prove me wrong if you'd like to?



So now we get into the repentance issue. Sorry, but apart from your providing the Scripture and interpretations of how you read them in context, there's not much to talk about.

Sorry, but I'm used to reading and doing more detailed work on such issues, such as looking at each and every mention of repentance and of words closely related to it. Basically, everything you say is unsubstantiated.

Peter's Gospel did not require the Israelites to believe in the death, burial and resurrection of Christ on the third day at the level of detail Paul laid out to the Corinthians in the place you claimed he was merely summarizing? The meticulous nature of his treatise to them does not at all hint at his merely summarizing to the point of leaving out any other element necessary for salvation, thus the gross distortions within your claim for his allegedly summarizing given that we have no reason to believe that Paul would have such a horrific omission.

Partially answered above re: Peter in early Acts.

You speak of meticulous nature, but your posts are far from meticulous in any respect.

The repeated allegation of a "horrific omission" is just a way to characterize things to go along with your unsubstantiated 2 gospel theory which you are far from proving. I'll listen, but you're going to have to do more than write empty narratives.
You're still not explaining how you figured it to be a legitimate claim that Paul would leave out from 1 Corinthians 15 any other element necessary for salvation, and say it on the basis of summarization. How many elements do you think there are that are required of us today for salvation that would not violate the biblical definition of grace?

MM
 

studier

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Yes, Paul at the start did baptize some, but 99% of all he preached to were not baptized by him those who had ever been baptized. The texts lead to no other conclusion.
Does it matter if he did the baptizing or if others with him did it? Of course it doesn't.

Paul, on the other hand, if baptism were mandatory under the Gospel of Grace, he would not have left that undone, which is the case for the majority of those to whom he preached, as the verses above give ample reason for us to believe. If one is going to claim that his workers who followed him about did all that for him, where's the proof in the text, because it makes no mention of any such thing apart from someone mentally injecting that into the text.
Again, where's the proof Paul's converts were not baptized? If you're going to oppose arguments from silence it needs to work both ways.

Furthermore, if Christ deemed it a requirement for us to be water baptized under the Gospel of Grace, then verse 17 would be a very strange and out-of-place statement indeed within a systematic study of this topic, thus ripping us out from under the salvation by grace. That would violate the very foundational definition from the Bible for what constitutes salvation by grace.
We've discussed not getting too deep into baptism, but you seem to need to do so in order to put forth your 2 Gospel theory and labeling one of them as the Gospel of Grace. Are you saying Peter never spoke of God's grace? How about the Tanakh, did it ever speak of God's grace? Was this just some new thing for Paul?

Yes, there are a number of people out there, generally speaking, who like to play word games by switching definitions to try and make it all mesh with their personal interpretations, which is a futile game. Unmerited favor predicated upon a requirement for the work of water baptism, that's another one of those dichotomies that many inject into the texts.
Grace being "unmerited favor" is really a simplistic definition for grace and I'm not the one who forced baptism and repentance into the discussion for his 2 Gospel agenda, which, once again, is the view of those who have become known as hyperdispensationalists who use these very same discussions of baptism and repentance for their 2 (or more) Gospel theories.

So, let's have a link to your site so I can see what you're unbridled reasonings are combined with all the charts or whatever material you've posted that you felt constrained by this media re: not being able to post.

FWIW, I note that this forum seems to disallow the promotion of Hyperdispensationalism (HD). Are you concerned about being flagged?

There are as usual plenty online who have answered the claims and interpretations of HD theology, and some look to include some decent analysis of details concerning baptism and repentance. It's also not that difficult to do some of that work.

Rightly dividing the word of truth is a matter of dividing truth from truth, not truth from falsehood, for there are no falsehoods taught within scripture; meaning that not all truth in the scriptures pertain to us today, but that fact escapes many who want to try and force us under the demands and commands that do not at all pertain to us today who are under grace. That is one rudiment among several that have arisen from replacement theology.
Again, your agenda. I've never mentioned replacement theology. If you allege that I have, then you're forcing it into our discussion. You've shown no ability to rightly divide anything. Rather, you post in critical narrative which is easy to do. Let's see your posted work.
 

studier

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@Musicmaster

Another edit for clarity:

MM: Peter's Gospel did not require the Israelites to believe in the death, burial and resurrection of Christ on the third day at the level of detail Paul laid out to the Corinthians in the place you claimed he was merely summarizing? The meticulous nature of his treatise to them does not at all hint at his merely summarizing to the point of leaving out any other element necessary for salvation, thus the gross distortions within your claim for his allegedly summarizing given that we have no reason to believe that Paul would have such a horrific omission.

studier: Partially answered above re: Peter in early Acts.

You speak of meticulous nature, but your posts are far from meticulous in any respect.

The repeated allegation of a "horrific omission" is just a way to characterize things to go along with your unsubstantiated 2 gospel theory which you are far from proving. I'll listen, but you're going to have to do more than write empty narratives.
 
Mar 8, 2025
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No problem.

Yes, Paul at the start did baptize some, but 99% of all he preached to were not baptized by him those who had ever been baptized. The texts lead to no other conclusion.

1 Corinthians 1:14-17
14 I thank God that I baptized none of you, but Crispus and Gaius;
15 Lest any should say that I had baptized in mine own name.
16 And I baptized also the household of Stephanas: besides, I know not whether I baptized any other.
17 For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect.

John the Baptist baptized unknown thousands, taking that upon himself as it was mandatory under the Kingdom Gospel, all while preaching. Paul, on the other hand, if baptism were mandatory under the Gospel of Grace, he would not have left that undone, which is the case for the majority of those to whom he preached, as the verses above give ample reason for us to believe. If one is going to claim that his workers who followed him about did all that for him, where's the proof in the text, because it makes no mention of any such thing apart from someone mentally injecting that into the text.

Furthermore, if Christ deemed it a requirement for us to be water baptized under the Gospel of Grace, then verse 17 would be a very strange and out-of-place statement indeed within a systematic study of this topic, thus ripping us out from under the salvation by grace. That would violate the very foundational definition from the Bible for what constitutes salvation by grace.

Yes, there are a number of people out there, generally speaking, who like to play word games by switching definitions to try and make it all mesh with their personal interpretations, which is a futile game. Unmerited favor predicated upon a requirement for the work of water baptism, that's another one of those dichotomies that many inject into the texts.

Rightly dividing the word of truth is a matter of dividing truth from truth, not truth from falsehood, for there are no falsehoods taught within scripture; meaning that not all truth in the scriptures pertain to us today, but that fact escapes many who want to try and force us under the demands and commands that do not at all pertain to us today who are under grace. That is one rudiment among several that have arisen from replacement theology.

MM
"Furthermore, if Christ deemed it a requirement for us to be water baptized under the Gospel of Grace, then verse 17 would be a very strange and out-of-place statement indeed within a systematic study of this topic, thus ripping us out from under the salvation by grace.
Paul was speaking about not using language *foreign* to the hearers.
The Covenant of Christ IS a Covenant of Grace since it is grace that motivated God to give the Son. It is the same as the "good news of the Kingdom" Christ proclaimed when He first came. God sent Him to earth with this message and his Apostles carried it to all the world commanding all men everywhere to repent and be baptize. Paul was baptized and baptized others and he proclaimed this same "gospel of grace". His message and practice were the same as that of the Lord Jesus. You seem to think that the "gospel of grace" is a propositional truth that offers no commands of action at all. This was the Augustininan view of Luther who made EVERY human action work. Even repenting and believing in Christ was regarded as a WORK equivalent to the efforts of the legalistic Pharisees to earn their own righteousness. To Augustinians, every human choice is a WORK including repentance and faith. To be valid every change had to be INVOLUNTARY

Paul was speaking about not using language *foreign* to the hearers.

In context Paul was talking about the charismatic gift of tongues by which people could speak languages unknown even to themselves.
14For if I pray in a tongue, my spirit prays, but my mind is unfruitful.
1 Corinthians 14:14
If I speak in any human language I have learned my understanding of it comes from my MIND where the language is stored.
Paul says here that when he prays in a "tongue" that he CANNOT UNDERSTAND it unless he or someone else is given the supernatural ability to understand it. Therefore they should pray to receive the interpretation,
…13Therefore, the one who speaks in a tongue should pray that he may interpret.
1 Corinthians 14:14
 

studier

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Do you think that is why the element of the SHOW (the stage smoke, the multi-colored lights, the elaborate sound systems) have expanded more and more while prayer and scripture exposition has contracted? One thing I learned from the Messianic Congregations is their tradition of holding yeshiva - "sitting down" together for extended study. A. W. Tozer once said "I deny that I teach 'over my congregation's head" I might preach THROUGH them if there is nothing there to stop it.
Many long before me and during my time have been very critical of the megachurch and seeker friendly models and of churches that have relegated teaching to the back burner, if they even do any to speak of. For a long time, there has been discussion re: the dumbing down of the church and of seminaries that became more of a Bible college than a training center for pastors and teachers that included required instruction in the languages so men could continue their own work in the Text.

I too attended a Messianic congregation that focused on teaching. It was my best congregational experience. It was 30 or so years ago so before most of what we now see in such groups had really taken current shapes.

IMO we've become way too infiltrated with business models, entertainments, and other things. But no one works for me and I'm not the Head of the Body.
 

Magenta

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In Hebrews we read that Jesus despised (or scorned) the shame. (12:2). Isaiah 53 tells us what Jesus endured. We also know that Jesus asked if the cup could pass Him by. I don't agree with what you've said. It's more glory to Jesus that He accepted God's will, even though He, the truly innocent, faced the death of the worst kind of criminal.

"For we do not have a high priest who is unable to sympathize with our weaknesses, but we have one who was tempted in every way that we are, yet was without sin." (Hebrews 4:15)
I agree. In fact, Kroogz saying "The Lord Jesus Christ was never concerned About Himself " is patently false.
It is quite a fanciful reading of Scripture to say Jesus sweat drops of blood because He was going to judge
mankind when the text pretty much explicitly tells us He was desirous of avoiding the cross if He could.