Loss of salvation???

[Toknow]

Some people are so in love with themselves that they take pride in winning over others based upon their human appeal.

That was what Satan did in regard to winning over angels away from the Lord..

A superiority complex is a terrible ball and chain when entering into the Christian way of life.

Oh.

You're still here?

I thought your alarm went off and that you'd, hopefully, disappear.

 

[Toknow]

Again, the website I use as a study tool seems to have gone commercial and I've only realized that it must have at one point been ad free, and the promotional banners inviting me to go 'ad-free' shut down any of my attempts to search out citations that come to mind so, I can only offer the wilting petals of the remnants of my recall. It is stated that the OC was not perfect because it depended on the imperfection of man to achieve its goal. On the other hand, the declaration of the NC leaves all dependence on perfect love, which is promised as having the capability to cast out fear, exactly the tool that the power of death uses to enslave its captives to sin. By Christ, death has been 'destingered' and, by default, so sin's affect is also 'neutralized' considering sin provides death its power. At any point in which we stop believing that, then it would follow that the law be reverted back to the OC standard of treatment, or so it seems to me.

The question then becomes:
What causes this perfect love that did not exist in the OC?

It is simply the difference between the OC and the NC.

God's demand for obedience is still present,,,as it was in all Covenants.

Man is still imperfect....so?
Does man following the NC have perfect love?

Have you read through this thread?
Do you see perfect love present here?

Man is still imperfect.
Man still does not understand God's love...
agape love is foreign to even some that consider themselves to be Christian.

Here is what the difference is:
The Holy Spirit.

The Holy Spirit was always present in the world,,,He was in the OT and He is in the NT.
He was in the OC and He is in the NC.

But he was hovering in the OC times.
The OC was a covenant of legalism.
The Isreailites were given laws, rules, to follow.
Why?
Because they had been slaves for over 400 years and forgot how to live in
a civilized society and did not know how to proceed now that they were free.

If you notice, most of the laws are civil and ceremonial in nature.
Not too many moral laws...although what we have covers everything.
Although imperfect because some were of God and some were of Moses
(which Jesus had to correct).

So now we have the law written on the heart....
it has not been abolished (the moral law).

The heart is the deepest level of man.
It is where love "resides".
The Holy Spirit now dwells in us as Jesus taught.
He ABIDES.

Problem is: Some are still very much like the natural man and do not
allow the Holy Spirit to work in them.
They say they have the Holy Spirit
but they do not BEHAVE /ACT like it.

We still have free will.
We still can accept God's help OR NOT.

 

[Toknow]

Well, to answer your question directly, why do we find such variation of the gospel among good and honest Christians? It's like this: when we first come to belief, someone hands us a box full of puzzle pieces and says, put this puzzle together. The problem is simple, but the effort is daunting. First of all, the puzzle box doesn't have a picture, so we can't see what it's supposed to look like.

You sure are assuming a lot.
Is this how ALL Christians come to know God?
And why don't we have a "picture" of what the puzzle looks like?
Isn't Jesus that picture?

Do you feel that some Christians DO NOT ACT as Jesus would want them to?
So maybe the picture is missing for some but not for others?

Paul says in Romans that those that do not know the gospel will be judged by what they do know and by
their conscience.

Doesn't this mean that we can rely on our conscience to some extent?

Secondly, the box contains puzzle pieces from other puzzles, so we are never sure if the piece we are holding actually goes with this puzzle. This causes us to spend a great amount of study time and discussion with other Christians of goodwill, sorting through the puzzle pieces - tossing out the pieces that don't belong.

YOU seem to have good will.
I don't think this is true of all "christians".
Been on these boards many years...
Been a moderator.
I know what goes on behind the scenes.
You'd be amazed at how messed up some persons are.
And yet they call themselves Christians.

Strange.
You'd think that Jesus' death would cause our heart to melt
and change us immediately...but, alas, this is not what happens.

Did Jesus fail in His mission?
Some don't even believe He came to bring the Kingdom of God on earth...
Although it seems very clear and is what the Christian religion teaches.

Now, regarding warnings, I advise caution. Does Jesus warn us? Yes Do his apostles warn us? Yes. But not all conditional statements are meant to convey contingency.

Somewhere, Jesus says, "If you obey me, you will prove to be my disciples." Here, our Lord makes a bold, conditional statement. But his statement can be heard at least one of two ways: 1.) If you obey me, and I know you will, then you will prove to be my disciples. or 2) If you obey me, and some of you might not, then time will tell whether you were my disciple or not." Did Jesus mean to say the first or the second? One is a puzzle piece that belongs in our puzzle box, the other is a piece that someone handed to me. Which one? I'll let you decide.

The above goes to the belief that those that do not obey were never saved to begin with.

Jesus meant what He said.
IF you love me,,,you WILL obey Me.

There's the condition.

IF you obey Me.....you love Me.

If we do not obey, we do not love.

I'm getting a lot of pushback on this thread because I state that
we must obey what Jesus taught.

Seems that word MUST is too strong for some.
Is God God,,,or is He just our buddy?

God calls us friends.
He calls us sons.

So does this negate obedience to Him?

I can kill the NEVER WAS SAVED argumen with just 3 of Jesus' teachings.
Seems like we just accept from the NT what is already believed by our own belief system.

We're not going to change anything right here, right now.
But Christianity is losing its salt...
and, I guess, some just have to keep posting what the NT taught.

Here's what I believe:

A doctor tell you that you'll never get cancer.

Another doctor tells you that it's possible to get cancer....
but you won't if you eat one tomatoe every day.

Would you eat that one tomatoe every day or just trust
the doctor that assures you getting cancer is impossible?

(I hate analogies).

I'd eat one tomatoe every day.

 

[Toknow]

Very, very simply put from an article at BibleHub: Bayesian reasoning derives from a formula that updates the probability of a hypothesis when new, relevant evidence is considered. This method requires an initial “prior probability,” which is then adjusted in light of additional data to yield a “posterior probability.

This is basically humility in the form of continuous study and being willing to change our thinking as we get more data that shows our thinking needs adjustment.

OK.
So it's due to continuous study and being willing to change according to what we learn.
Not the fact that some new revelation has come to light and so Christianity requires some change.

I'm very firm on the belief that new teachings cannot be dogmatically Christian in nature.
If they were, we would have had these teachings from the beginning.

OSAS is one such belief system.
It never existed in the early churrh, and did not until AFTER the reformation since Martin Luther did not believe in OSAS.
The idea started with Calvinism.....Preservation of the Saints....which was a necessary teaching due to the fact that they believe God chooses who will be saved....and if God choose them, then He will see to it that they persevere till the end.

Which is not even what Calvin taught, but I don't want to stray too far.
He taught that God could make it SEEM that some are saved....but then He removes the "veil".
Interesting however....even the THEY WERE NEVER SAVED TO BEGIN WITH argument doesn't work here,,,since they WERE saved for a while.

Anyway,,,onward....

When you say "new revelation" I'm assuming you mean beyond what we have in the Text. I operate that we have a closed Text unless and until IF and when we might discover more. I also think revelation from God is one of the factors that Bayes' - a Presbyterian Minister and mathematician as I recall - had to include in his work and arguments.

Agreed on the closed text.

From there, I read all men critically, and know I am one, so back to the humility loop. I agree with some ECF thinking but not all of it and they didn't always agree with each other. Please don't ask me for examples - you're probably more well-read in them than I. If you disagree you'd have to show me why and I think that would be a big project requiring too much effort on both our parts.

No. I agree fully.
The very early ones can be trusted not to have added or taken away or changed what the Apostles taught.
Also,,, only if they all agree do I take it to mean that what they wrote/taught is correct...otherwise it has to be discarded and we return to scripture.

As for OSAS, I'm no fan of Calvin as he's considered today & I enjoyed your comments about what basically is the Free-Grace version of Faith-Alone and its Eternal Security in the end not being all that different from Calvinistic OSAS Perseverance, while Calvin seems the arch-enemy of FG. Go figure.

Right.
If it becomes impossible to lose salvation, it most certainly means that we surrendered our free will
at being born again.

And instead we retain our free will.

The baptism issue IMO is largely a FG matter also. As Faith-Alone progressed it became a concept of stripping absolutely everything - every definitional or responsive point - from "faith" so it could be "alone" and in essence setting aside the "faith is never alone" counter or clarification statement. Then much of the biblical instruction re: faith became in this mindset = 'works'. It's basic reduction absurdum as some might say and even what God requires in cooperative response is labeled a work.

Some consider FAITH to be a work !
Some consider obedience to be a work.


As to faith alone....how could it possibly be a correct doctrine if Paul says we must have love.
Add one thing to faith,,,,,and it is no longer FAITH ALONE.

Plus, some on here create a confusion by stating time and time again, ad nauseam, that faith alone saves.
Of couse faith alone saves. No Christian believes we can be saved by doing good works WITHOUT faith.
They benefit humanity.....but not God, who requires that we believe IN Him and worship Him.

AFTER we're saved, faith alone no longer works well with scripture, where all the IF's are written...all the teachings as to how we're to behave.

So, our growth in understanding is a process and is cumulative and periodically we will face the fact that we need to circle back and undo some premise and rebuild so we can continue to build with proper materials (essentially Bayes'). I find most seem afraid they have something wrong and stuck in various systems having been told what the Text means apart from their own critical reasoning. For me, it's 'show me the Text and let's look at it as deeply as may be necessary and as we can do.'

Yes sir.
Looking too deeply might cause some grief !
it might take one out of their comfort zone.

My favorite is: We obey because we want to.
Really? God gives suggestions?
We obey only if we want to?
What if we don't want to?

It's always the Text with the Spirit for me. I don't trust men and I am one.

LOL

Agreed.
Too easy to make mistakes.
This is why I like my tomatoe analogy to the other member.
(I hate anlogies).

Will try to find it quick.

BTW, I'd like to state things as simply and succinctly as you do and I'm enjoying reading you and agree with much that you say. But the above is me it seems. Please ask anything you'd like.

Ditto.
Too much childish behavior
and not enough serious discussion.

 

[Toknow]

@studier

Here it is. Post no. 7903

Here's what I believe:

A doctor tells you that you'll never get cancer.

Another doctor tells you that it's possible to get cancer....
but you won't if you eat one tomatoe every day.

Would you eat that one tomatoe every day or just trust
the doctor that assures you getting cancer is impossible?


I'd eat one tomatoe every day.

 

[Gideon300]

MM

If you can't undersand how your understanding of 2 Timothy 2.13 is creating a clear conflcit with verse 12...
then it's clear why you have such a misunderstanding of scripture.






So stating to another "Christian" that we are to obey God
is
prideful infatuation
and saving myself

Yes sir.
Some would cause Christianity to fall....
but Jesus said He would protect his church
and not even the gates of hell will prevail.

Matthew 16:18
18 And I also say to you that you are [m]Peter, and upon this [n]rock I will build My church; and the gates of Hades will not overpower it.


Replied to above.

You might want to do a very small study on
2 Timothy 2:12-13

But it might upset your odd theology.



I'm not a Pelagain.



Actually, our salvation IS based on our retention of our faith.
I provided many verses proving this.

The smart persons following along -who do not even post - will understand this from simple reading of the NT.

And I have noticed that you provide no scripture for your understanding of the NT and your idea that we cannot lose our salvation.

This is because you have NO SUPPORT because your idea is not what the NT teaches.

There are only two fundamental states for humanity. Either you are dead in trespass and sin, or you are alive in Christ forever. This is the whole point of the first three chapters of Ephesians. For some reason beyond my comprehension, you reject this fundamental truth. Your entire focus is on what man must do, not on the facts of what God has already done.

Paul says, "As a prisoner in the Lord, then, I urge you to walk in a manner worthy of the calling you have received: with all humility and gentleness, with patience, bearing with one another in love, and with diligence to preserve the unity of the Spirit through the bond of peace." (Ephesians 4:13)

You get it back to front. Paul says we should live in the light of what Christ has done for us. You say that God's word of grace is entirely conditional. That is not what grace is. Believers are new creations in Christ. Do you even begin to comprehend what that means? Obviously not - your words prove it.

 

[Toknow]

There are only two fundamental states for humanity. Either you are dead in trespass and sin, or you are alive in Christ forever. This is the whole point of the first three chapters of Ephesians. For some reason beyond my comprehension, you reject this fundamental truth. Your entire focus is on what man must do, not on the facts of what God has already done.

Paul says, "As a prisoner in the Lord, then, I urge you to walk in a manner worthy of the calling you have received: with all humility and gentleness, with patience, bearing with one another in love, and with diligence to preserve the unity of the Spirit through the bond of peace." (Ephesians 4:13)

You get it back to front. Paul says we should live in the light of what Christ has done for us. You say that God's word of grace is entirely conditional. That is not what grace is. Believers are new creations in Christ. Do you even begin to comprehend what that means? Obviously not - your words prove it.

I read through this thread while having breakfast.
I will no longer be replying to those that preach that we cannot lose our salvation...
and then go on to speak about me without tagging me in...which is tantamount to gossip,
and we know what James taught about the tongue.
Also, making silly comments to each other is not offering any discussion on the matter,
but just fooling around....I don't really have a lot of time for fooling around and am rather serious
about both theology and apologetics.

Now you sound serious so I'm willing to give it a go.

It's not ME that rejects anything Gideon....
it's the NT that plainly teaches forfieture of salvation if we do not obey what Jesus taught.

You quote Paul: Have I not been humble, gentle, patient, posting in love?
It IS rather difficult to maintain this composure when you have 5 or 6 persons making silly comment AT you..


So let's move forwarfd and see if we're guaranteed our salvation or if it's conditional.


Is the word IF a conditional word?
Does it create a condition?


Colossians 1:
21And although you were formerly alienated and hostile in mind, engaged in evil deeds,

22yet He has now reconciled you in His fleshly body through death, in order to present you before Him holy and blameless and beyond reproach—

23if indeed you continue in the faith firmly established and steadfast, and not moved away from the hope of the gospel that you have heard,


Here's my question to you:
You've read through the NT and have come to the belief that one is saved forever no matter what.

THEN you come across Colossians 1:21-23

There's that big IF there.
Does it cause you to pause and reconsider?
Could Paul have meant something differnet?
Did he really mean that we need to continue in the faith firmly and steadfast?

Is this ONE VERSE enough to cause consideration
or do you need even more?

This one would cause me to reconsider everything.

However,,,,,,there are MANY more conditional verses.

But let's stop at this one for a minute.
What does it mean anyway?
There's a member on here that just explains everything away.
Could Colossians be explained away?

 

[Gideon300]

I read through this thread while having breakfast.
I will no longer be replying to those that preach that we cannot lose our salvation...
and then go on to speak about me without tagging me in...which is tantamount to gossip,
and we know what James taught about the tongue.
Also, making silly comments to each other is not offering any discussion on the matter,
but just fooling around....I don't really have a lot of time for fooling around and am rather serious
about both theology and apologetics.

Now you sound serious so I'm willing to give it a go.

It's not ME that rejects anything Gideon....
it's the NT that plainly teaches forfieture of salvation if we do not obey what Jesus taught.

You quote Paul: Have I not been humble, gentle, patient, posting in love?
It IS rather difficult to maintain this composure when you have 5 or 6 persons making silly comment AT you..


So let's move forwarfd and see if we're guaranteed our salvation or if it's conditional.


Is the word IF a conditional word?
Does it create a condition?


Colossians 1:
21And although you were formerly alienated and hostile in mind, engaged in evil deeds,

22yet He has now reconciled you in His fleshly body through death, in order to present you before Him holy and blameless and beyond reproach—

23if indeed you continue in the faith firmly established and steadfast, and not moved away from the hope of the gospel that you have heard,


Here's my question to you:
You've read through the NT and have come to the belief that one is saved forever no matter what.

THEN you come across Colossians 1:21-23

There's that big IF there.
Does it cause you to pause and reconsider?
Could Paul have meant something differnet?
Did he really mean that we need to continue in the faith firmly and steadfast?

Is this ONE VERSE enough to cause consideration
or do you need even more?

This one would cause me to reconsider everything.

However,,,,,,there are MANY more conditional verses.

But let's stop at this one for a minute.
What does it mean anyway?
There's a member on here that just explains everything away.
Could Colossians be explained away?

I've said this many times before. You do not know what it means to be saved.

 

[Musicmaster]

You can lead a mule to water of scripture, but you can't make it drink...or eat a tomato every day...

MM

 

[Toknow]

I've said this many times before. You do not know what it means to be saved.

Thanks Gideon.
That's very nice of you.
Having known me PERSONALLY for many years,,,
I suppose you have the right to believe what you will.

However,
I don't see a reply to Colossians 1.

Why not?

And, instead of trying to make you THINK...

I could have replied to your post to me like this:

You mentioned Ephesians and specifically 4:3 and even posted it.

So why would Paul tell us to behave in a certain manner IF we cannot ever lose our salvation?

Maybe it DEPENDS on our BEHAVIOR?


OR

I could have answered it like this:


There are 3 categories of persons.
SAVED
UNSAVED
THOSE THAT RETURNED TO BEING UNSAVED


Here are some expamples:



JUST FROM JESUS:

Luke 8:13
. 13“Those on the rocky soil are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no firm root; they believe for a while, and in time of temptation fall away.

They BELIEVE FOR A WHILE.

I do believe BELIEVERS are saved...

And then they FALL AWAY due to temptation.




Luke 15:24
24for this son of mine was dead and has come to life again; he was lost and has been found.’ And they began to celebrate.

The Prodigal son came to life AGAIN.

AGAIN means that:
he had life
he lost it
he got it back again




Matthew 5:13
13“You are the salt of the earth; but if the salt has become tasteless, how can it be made salty again? It is no longer good for anything, except to be thrown out and trampled under foot by men.



We are the salt of the earth.
IF we become tasteless....
it is good for nothing but to be trampled underfoot.

The salt BECAME tasteless.
It LOST its saltiness.


I'd stop to HEAR what Jesus teaches.

 

[Musicmaster]

I've said this many times before. You do not know what it means to be saved.

On that topic, anyone who believes in loss of salvation cannot prove one way or the other they themselves are saved in that moment given that they have no definition for that line of demarcation. When you ask them if it's based upon the number of sins committed each day, they have no authoritative answer. When you ask them what categories of sin are the points of departure by having stepped over that line, some will come up with a list of things they personally consider the more grievous sins, but they have no such distinction stated in scripture in relation to the body of Christ from the advent of the Gospel of Grace. They're perfectly at home with the analysis of their salvational beliefs being works-dased.

I did encou ter one in years past who did point to a statement Christ made about causing a little one to sin, and therefore it being better had that perpetrator never been born. Dare we degenerate down to the level of salvation loss philosophy, it could then be said that we ALL are guilty of causing a little one to sin. After all, who among us didn't have childhood friends and/or siblings we enticed into some sin at any point throughout his or her childhood?

On the other hand, we should take the higher road of understanding by way of a more holistic vantagepoint by systematically reasoning all of scripture into the discussion by realizing that the Lord wasn't speaking in relation to childhood missteps, but rather those of greater knowledge and understanding who choose to operate at the lowest levels of manipulation over a weaker mind not yet matured to the point of distinction and understanding. This is where the multitudes of false teaching pastors skirt the edges of that very condemnation, not to mention those who preach "another gospel" to those who are seeking to know about true salvation.

Roman Catholicism, in spite of its multitudes of false doctrines, at least defines the sins that cast one down to the lowest levels of their scale of salvation and the progressional steps toward their belief about minimal time in their made-up "pergatory." Salvation loss gang members among Evangelicals and Protestants in general, that bunch has nothing...zip...zilch! Empty platitudes seems to be the only dish they can serve up whereby their audience either manically joins up with their random boundaries and bouncing off the padded walls of goofy antics, or they stand upon the solid foundation of scriptural integrity by a refusal to inject into scripture what isn't there and to read it for ONLY what it says.

Amen.

MM

 

[Qt]

Sorry Qt
I just saw your post to me from quite a while ago.

No worries, we have lives my friend.
As I look at your query below I find myself seeing something that I had noticed before but forgot. It is phenomenal. Shame on me for not making this a priority in the Ministry that I had been given.

It was regarding John 14:15

I did want your opinon:

If Jesus is saying that IF we love Him we will obey Him....

isn't that the same as saying that if we do not obey Him,,
it means we do not love Him?

Yes! John is my favorite Gospel BTW.
I try to keep everything in context. So with that said I went back and I noticed something in verse 12 in the Greek that I had noticed before but forgot. The Greek preposition eise is used. Here is the STRONG definition in respect to the Greek word. It says it is, "A primary preposition; to or into (indicating the point reached or entered), of place, time, or (figuratively) purpose (result, etc.); also in adverbial phrases."

Back then if the word was used, they would have thought of the basic meaning, which is "into" when they heard the word. One more thing my friend. The word believing is a present active participle. An active state of being. Hence why the translation believing is best suited in John 14:12 and other places.

Here is the definition of a participle.

Mood: Participle (P) (Robinson's Morphological Analysis Codes)
Mood: Participle (P) - Koine Greek Grammar
Participles act as verbal adjectives; track case-number-gender agreement while retaining verbal force.
Example (English): "Make disciples, baptizing them." Matt 28:19
Example (Greek): "μαθητεύσατε πάντα τὰ ἔθνη βαπτίζοντες αὐτούς" Matt 28:19

Keep in mind if you study this out Jesus' words in John 17. In particular verses 20-23.

John 17:20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;
John 17:21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
John 17:22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:
John 17:23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.


HERE ARE THREE TRANSLATIONS> Young's Literal Translation Got it right this time. Incidentally John 3:16 uses the same grammar and syntax.


John 14:12 (YLT) Indeed, I tell you truly, the one believing into Me, the works which I do, that one shall do also, and greater than these he will do, because I go to My Father.

John 14:12 (KJV) Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.

John 14:12 (NET) I tell you the solemn truth, the person who believes in me will perform the miraculous deeds that I am doing, and will perform greater deeds than these because I am going to the Father.

Here is a list of all the places the phrase "believing into" is used. Look each up if you wish. Makes for a great devotional study.

John 3:15 ινα πας ο πιστευων εις αυτον μη αποληται αλλ εχη ζωην αιωνιον
John 3:16 ουτω γαρ ηγαπησεν ο θεος τον κοσμον ωστε τον υιον αυτου τον μονογενη εδωκεν ινα πας ο πιστευων εις αυτον μη αποληται αλλ εχη ζωην αιωνιον
John 3:18 ο πιστευων εις αυτον ου κρινεται ο δε μη πιστευων ηδη κεκριται οτι μη πεπιστευκεν εις το ονομα του μονογενους υιου του θεου
John 3:36 ο πιστευων εις τον υιον εχει ζωην αιωνιον ο δε απειθων τω υιω ουκ οψεται ζωην αλλ η οργη του θεου μενει επ αυτον
John 6:35 ειπε δε αυτοις ο ιησους εγω ειμι ο αρτος της ζωης ο ερχομενος προς με ου μη πειναση και ο πιστευων εις εμε ου μη διψηση πωποτε
John 6:40 τουτο δε εστι το θελημα του πεμψαντος με ινα πας ο θεωρων τον υιον και πιστευων εις αυτον εχη ζωην αιωνιον και αναστησω αυτον εγω τη εσχατη ημερα
John 6:47 αμην αμην λεγω υμιν ο πιστευων εις εμε εχει ζωην αιωνιον
John 7:38 ο πιστευων εις εμε καθως ειπεν η γραφη ποταμοι εκ της κοιλιας αυτου ρευσουσιν υδατος ζωντος
John 11:25 ειπεν αυτη ο ιησους εγω ειμι η αναστασις και η ζωη ο πιστευων εις εμε καν αποθανη ζησεται
John 11:26 και πας ο ζων και πιστευων εις εμε ου μη αποθανη εις τον αιωνα πιστευεις τουτο;
John 12:44 ιησους δε εκραξε και ειπεν ο πιστευων εις εμε ου πιστευει εις εμε αλλ εις τον πεμψαντα με
John 12:46 εγω φως εις τον κοσμον εληλυθα ινα πας ο πιστευων εις εμε εν τη σκοτια μη μεινη
John 14:12 αμην αμην λεγω υμιν ο πιστευων εις εμε τα εργα α εγω ποιω κακεινος ποιησει και μειζονα τουτων ποιησει οτι εγω προς τον πατερα μου πορευομαι

Also, when GOD states YOU WILL
isn't that a command?

Amen!

I understand everything Jesus says to be a command.
When He states in Matthew 5 BLESSED ARE THE HUMBLE....
He is, in effect, saying that we are to be humble....
this is what He wants...to what degree we can achieve this is a totally different matter.

He has given us all things that pertaining to life and godliness.
It is He that works in us both to will and do His good pleasure.

Some seem to want to lighten what Jesus commands by saying that we do this because
we want to.

Yes sir. With the help of the Holy Spirit we will want to and ever so much more.
But we also MUST and that this words bothers some on these Forums does cause me to have concern.

Makes me think of the parable of the two sons. One said yes and did not. And the other said no and did it anyway.

 

[studier]

Destruction is not congruent to annihilation.

ἀπώλεια apṓleia, ap-o'-li-a; from a presumed derivative of G622; ruin or loss (physical, spiritual or eternal):—damnable(-nation), destruction, die, perdition, X perish, pernicious ways, waste.

To annihilate means to make into non-existence which comes from the Latin word "ad nihilum" nothingness.

Bauer-Danker, Greek-English Lexicon of the NT (BDAG)

[BDAG] ἀπώλεια
• ἀπώλεια, ας, ἡ (s. ἀπόλλυμι; Demades [IV BC]: Or. Att. II 52 p. 313 in the sense ‘loss’; later writers; ins, pap, oft. LXX, pseudepigr., Philo, Jos., Ar., Just.; Mel., P.).

1. the destruction that one causes, destruction, waste trans. (Aristot., EN 4, 1, 1120a 2; Polyb. 6, 11a, 10 opp. τήρησις; PTebt 276, 34) εἰς τί ἡ ἀ. αὕτη τ. μύρου; why this waste of ointment? Mk 14:4; cp. Mt 26:8.

2. the destruction that one experiences, annihilation both complete and in process, ruin intr. (so usu. LXX; EpArist 167; Philo, Aet. M. 20; 74; Jos., Ant. 15, 62, Vi. 272; TestDan 4:5; Ar. 13, 8; Just., D. 56, 5; Mel.; but also in Aristot., Prob. 29, 14, 952b 26; Polyb., Plut., Epict. et al. [Nägeli 35]; Diod. S. 15, 48, 1 with φθορά; Herm. Wr. 12, 16; PGM 4, 1247f παραδίδωμι σε εἰς τὸ μέλαν χάος ἐν τ. ἀπωλείαις) Ac 25:16 v.l.; AcPl Ha 4, 16. (w. ὄλεθρον) βυθίζειν εἰς ὄ. καὶ ἀ. plunge into utter destruction 1 Ti 6:9; πρὸς τ. ἰδίαν αὐτῶν ἀ. to their own ruin 2 Pt 3:16; (w. πλάνη) 2 Cl 1:7 (Ar. 13:8). Esp. of eternal destruction as punishment for the wicked: Mt 7:13; εἰς ἀ. ὑπάγειν go to destr. Rv 17:8, 11. (Opp. περιποίησις ψυχῆς) Hb 10:39. (Opp. σωτηρία) Phil 1:28. ἡμέρα κρίσεως καὶ ἀπωλείας (Job 21:30) τ. ἀσεβῶν ἀνθρώπων day of judgment and (consequent) destruction of wicked men 2 Pt 3:7. Hence the end of the wicked is described as ἀ.: τὸ ἀργύριόν σου σὺν σοὶ εἴη εἰς ἀπώλειαν to hell with you and your money (Phillips) Ac 8:20 (for the phrasing cp. Da 2:5 and 3:96 Theod.); ὧν τὸ τέλος ἀ. Phil 3:19. σκεύη ὀργῆς, κατηρτισμένα εἰς ἀ. objects of (God’s) anger, ready for destruction Ro 9:22 (Is 54:16). It will come quickly 2 Pt 2:1; is not sleeping vs. 3 (on the topic cp. Od. 2, 281-84). Appears as a consequence of death (cp. Job 28:22): ὁ θάνατος ἀ. ἔχει αἰώνιον Hs 6, 2, 4; God laughs at it 1 Cl 57:4 (Pr 1:26). Those destined to destruction are υἱοὶ τῆς ἀ. J 17:12; ApcPt 1:2. The Lawless One is also υἱὸς τῆς ἀ. 2 Th 2:3. αἱρέσεις ἀπωλείας heresies that lead to destr. 2 Pt 2:1; δόγματα τῆς ἀ. ApcPt 1:1.—DELG s.v. ὄλλυμι. M-M. TW.

 

[studier]

Man is still imperfect.
Man still does not understand God's love...

Nor does man fully understand God's law.

Must be a connection...

Probably that man does not understand God.

 

[studier]

We still have free will.
We still can accept God's help OR NOT.

Repeating a good statement.

 

[Roger316]

You sure are assuming a lot.
Is this how ALL Christians come to know God?
And why don't we have a "picture" of what the puzzle looks like?
Isn't Jesus that picture?

If I were to maintain the analogy a bit longer, our box of puzzle pieces contains half a dozen different pictures of Jesus. To discover the real Jesus takes effort and the Power of the Holy Spirit.

Do you feel that some Christians DO NOT ACT as Jesus would want them to?
So maybe the picture is missing for some but not for others?

Paul says in Romans that those that do not know the gospel will be judged by what they do know and by
their conscience.

Doesn't this mean that we can rely on our conscience to some extent?

According to Paul in Romans 2, we all have an inherent understanding of right and wrong to some extent. However, he also argues that our worthiness of punishment stems not only from our actions but from our very nature. In Romans 7, he explains that he did not realize he was on the path to condemnation until he recognized that he had violated the commandment against coveting. He expresses gratitude to God, stating that there is no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.

We see that the salvation of God is not transactional; it is relational. The question is not, "Are all my sins forgiven?" but rather, "Am I in Christ Jesus?"

YOU seem to have good will.
I don't think this is true of all "christians".
Been on these boards many years...
Been a moderator.
I know what goes on behind the scenes.
You'd be amazed at how messed up some persons are.
And yet they call themselves Christians.

I know what you mean, but I am reminded that Jesus ate with sinners and those whom the religious people rejected. I am willing to wait until the final judgement to see who makes it.

Strange.
You'd think that Jesus' death would cause our heart to melt
and change us immediately...but, alas, this is not what happens.

I agree with you; it makes me sad too. The prophets of old also experienced the isolation of living among a disobedient people. I have learned to place my trust in the Holy Spirit to save others. Although we feel sadness when many treat God's salvation as worthless, we endure because we trust that God will eventually set things right. Wouldn't you agree?

Did Jesus fail in His mission?
Some don't even believe He came to bring the Kingdom of God on earth...
Although it seems very clear and is what the Christian religion teaches.

Yes, it's what the Bible teaches.

The above goes to the belief that those that do not obey were never saved to begin with.

Jesus meant what He said.
IF you love me,,,you WILL obey Me.

There's the condition.

Okay, but wouldn't you agree that not all conditions necessarily imply or necessitate contingency? I fear that sometimes we hear contingency when none was intended. What we hear him say is "if you love me you will keep my commandments, some of you will keep them and some of you won't. We added that last part.

Did Jesus intend to offer us a loyalty test, suggesting that falling away remains a possibility? Or perhaps He aimed to establish a strong connection between love for Him and obedience, to the point that we cannot find anyone who obeys Jesus without having first loved Him. I am reminded of the woman who washed Jesus' feet. He asked Simon, “Who loved me more: the one who is forgiven little or the one who is forgiven much?”

IF you obey Me.....you love Me.

If we do not obey, we do not love.

Sure, but don't we add the part about falling away? I agree with what you just said, but I would hold short of concluding that Jesus was talking about the continuity of falling away.

I'm getting a lot of pushback on this thread because I state that
we must obey what Jesus taught.

I'm sorry about the pushback you are receiving. Of course, we must obey everything Jesus taught. But I would include his teaching on grace and the power of the Holy Spirit.

Seems that word MUST is too strong for some.
Is God God,,,or is He just our buddy?

God calls us friends.
He calls us sons.

So does this negate obedience to Him?

Not at all. I agree with you here.

I can kill the NEVER WAS SAVED argumen with just 3 of Jesus' teachings.
Seems like we just accept from the NT what is already believed by our own belief system.

Other systems are the sources of Puzzle pieces from another box that don't belong in our box. The way forward is to maintain the distinction between a transactional scheme and a relational scheme. Jesus taught us that we are saved by grace, which means that I have nothing to offer him. Salvation isn't meritorious; it is granted freely as a gift.

Salvation is relational. This is seen most clearly when Jesus talks about those who cast out demons in the strreet. On that day he will sat\y to them "I never knew you. Simply put, if Jesus denies me I am doomed. but if he "knows" me my salvation depend on whether I was in a relationship with him. Did he knw me or nt?

We're not going to change anything right here, right now.
But Christianity is losing its salt...
and, I guess, some just have to keep posting what the NT taught.

Here's what I believe:

A doctor tell you that you'll never get cancer.

Another doctor tells you that it's possible to get cancer....
but you won't if you eat one tomatoe every day.

Would you eat that one tomatoe every day or just trust
the doctor that assures you getting cancer is impossible?

(I hate analogies).

I'd eat one tomatoe every day.

Good analogy. But may I add one more thing? Doesn't you behavior arrise from who you are as an individual. Doesn't reflect your wish to liive, your your desire to do the right thing, your ability to recognize wisdom? Our actions reveal something true and real about or motives, wishes, desires, dreams,hopes and expectations

We might even say that God prepared you for that one moment?

 

[Ouch]

You can lead a mule to water of scripture, but you can't make it drink...or eat a tomato every day...

MM

Water something you will not accept, you right.

 

[studier]

Seems that word MUST is too strong for some.
Is God God,,,or is He just our buddy?

NKJ John 15:14 "You are My friends if you do whatever I command you.

NKJ John 15:15 "No longer do I call you servants, for a servant does not know what his master is doing; but I have called you friends, for all things that I heard from My Father I have made known to you.

Seems like His friends have know what He's taught and do what He says.

 

[Mem]

Does man following the NC have perfect love?

Man following the NC, in his imperfection, receives perfect love.

We still can accept God's help OR NOT.

We can receive His perfect love, or NOT.

 

[studier]

My favorite is: We obey because we want to.
Really? God gives suggestions?
We obey only if we want to?
What if we don't want to?

This is part of the discussion about love also.
Do we obey just because we love - or do we obey because He is God?

NKJ Acts 10:35 "But in every nation whoever fears Him and works righteousness is accepted/welcomed by Him.