Loss of salvation???

[studier]

Behavior control through fear mongering by preaching a losable salvation will not fix the problem.

The problem is an incorrect Gospel, discipleship and walking in the Spirit.

Why would you call a desire for proper exegesis "fear mongering"?

Do you view the warnings in Scripture as fear-mongering?

Are you sure you have the correct exegesis and Gospel?

If your view is wrong, do you think false assurance is a problem-fix or a problem?

 

[studier]

Meaning of the passage.... those who are saved are saved ...repentance for salvation is once and for all, anything else puts Him and His work to open shame because it means His work was insufficient and needs repeating.

We can make anything say what we want it to say by inserting a premise into it and by ignoring all the rest of the context I posted.

 

[Kroogz]

Meaning of the passage.... those who are saved are saved ...repentance for salvation is once and for all, anything else puts Him and His work to open shame because it means His work was insufficient and needs repeating.

1 John 2:28~~Now, little children, remain in Him, so that when He appears, we may have confidence and not draw back from Him in shame at His coming.

Col 1~~22 yet He has now reconciled you in His body of flesh through death, in order to present you before Him holy and blameless and beyond reproach— 23 if indeed you continue in the faith firmly established and steadfast, and not shifting from the hope of the gospel that you have heard, which was proclaimed in all creation under heaven, and of which I, Paul,was made a minister.

Some believers will have SHAME at His coming. And some will not be presented holy and blameless.

1 Cor 3:15~~If anyone’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet only so as through fire.

The loss of salvation crowd has shifted from the Hope/security/truth of the Gospel........Putting the Lord Jesus Christ to open shame.

 

[HeIsHere]

We can make anything say what we want it to say by inserting a premise into it and by ignoring all the rest of the context I posted.

Actually this is correct, given the entire focus of the Book of Hebrews, which is saved is saved because Christ is our perfect and final sacrifice.

“For by one offering He hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.” (Hebrews 10:14 KJV)

As well I will go with this ... back loading obedience on to this word πιστεύω is not supported by reputable lexicons
Lexical Summary

pisteuó: To believe, to have faith, to trust​

Original Word: πιστεύω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: pisteuó
Pronunciation: pis-tyoo'-o
Phonetic Spelling: (pist-yoo'-o)
KJV: believe(-r), commit (to trust), put in trust with
NASB: believe, believed, believes, believing, entrusted, believers, do
Word Origin: [from G4102 (πίστις - faith)]


1. to have faith (in, upon, or with respect to, a person or thing), i.e. credit
2. (by implication) to entrust (especially one's spiritual well-being to Christ)

Strong's Greek: 4100. πιστεύω (pisteuó) -- To believe, to have faith, to trust

 

[HeIsHere]

The loss of salvation crowd has shifted from the Hope/security/truth of the Gospel........Putting the Lord Jesus Christ to open shame.

Agree, it is very troubling to do this to HIM and His completed, irrevocable gift.

Exactly by saying Christ cannot redeem to the uttermost the person who is justified and imputed the righteousness of Christ is SHAMEFUL.

 

[studier]

The meaning of the word at the time is what matters.

You mean in first century Greek or thereafter?

Annihilation is a theological debate and as a word apart from that it has a range of meaning that includes being a synonym for destruction that BDAG uses.

If you're sensitive to the theological debate, I understand your issue. And I can see the etymology over the centuries. But I don't see BDAG trying to assert a theology in this, rather I see them seeking to include the range of meaning of the Greek through Greek literature.

 

[mailmandan]

Col 1~~22 yet He has now reconciled you in His body of flesh through death, in order to present you before Him holy and blameless and beyond reproach— 23 if indeed you continue in the faith firmly established and steadfast, and not shifting from the hope of the gospel that you have heard, which was proclaimed in all creation under heaven, and of which I, Paul,was made a minister.

I see continuing in the faith as a confirmation that a person's faith was firmly rooted and established in the hope of the gospel to begin with, and they really HAVE BEEN reconciled.

It makes sense that Paul would speak this way because he is addressing large groups of people who all "profess" to be Christians without being able to infallibly know the actual state of every person's heart. How can Paul avoid giving them false assurance of salvation here when in fact some of them may not be saved? Paul knows that faith which is firmly grounded and established in the gospel from the start will continue. Those who continue in the faith demonstrate thereby that they are genuine believers.

Just as we see in 1 Corinthians 15:1,2 - Moreover, brethren, I declare to you the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received and in which you stand, by which also you are saved, if you hold fast (demonstrative evidence of faith being firmly rooted and established) that word which I preached to you--unless you believed in vain.

To believe in vain is to believe without cause or without effect, to no purpose. The people who fail to hold fast to the word (the gospel) that Paul preached in 1 Corinthians 15:1-4, demonstrated that they "believed in vain" (did not truly believe unto salvation in the first place).

 

[studier]

Actually this is correct, given the entire focus of the Book of Hebrews, which is saved is saved because Christ is our perfect and final sacrifice.

“For by one offering He hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.” (Hebrews 10:14 KJV)

As well I will go with this ... back loading obedience on to this word πιστεύω is not supported by reputable lexicons
Lexical Summary

pisteuó: To believe, to have faith, to trust​

Original Word: πιστεύω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: pisteuó
Pronunciation: pis-tyoo'-o
Phonetic Spelling: (pist-yoo'-o)
KJV: believe(-r), commit (to trust), put in trust with
NASB: believe, believed, believes, believing, entrusted, believers, do
Word Origin: [from G4102 (πίστις - faith)]


1. to have faith (in, upon, or with respect to, a person or thing), i.e. credit
2. (by implication) to entrust (especially one's spiritual well-being to Christ)

Strong's Greek: 4100. πιστεύω (pisteuó) -- To believe, to have faith, to trust

Again, all you've done is asserted a soteriology onto the beginning of the entire Hebrews letter.

The Lexicons get us started.

The Scripture parallels faith and obedience and uses the words appositionally and ties them together logically. This is not backloading.

 

[HeIsHere]

Again, all you've done is asserted a soteriology onto the beginning of the entire Hebrews letter.

The Lexicons get us started.

The Scripture parallels faith and obedience and uses the words appositionally and ties them together logically. This is not backloading.

I would say the audience who received the letter and the purpose for the letter is the first starting point.

There are two parts to faith, the simple first act of faith, and then the faith of the believer and we need to know which one scripture has in view.

 

[Genez]

@studier

Here it is. Post no. 7903

Here's what I believe:

A doctor tells you that you'll never get cancer.

Another doctor tells you that it's possible to get cancer....
but you won't if you eat one tomatoe every day.

Would you eat that one tomatoe every day or just trust
the doctor that assures you getting cancer is impossible?


I'd eat one tomatoe every day.

Why believe the doctor?

 

[HeIsHere]

I'm getting a lot of pushback on this thread because I state that
we must obey what Jesus taught.

NO, the push back is because you assert obedience is necessary to maintain salvation.

Newsflash.. your salvation doctrine does not produce more salt or light... because it is not supported by scripture.

 

[Kroogz]

Agree, it is very troubling to do this to HIM and His completed, irrevocable gift.

Exactly by saying Christ cannot redeem to the uttermost the person who is justified and imputed the righteousness of Christ is SHAMEFUL.

John 14:6~~I will ask the Father, and He will give you another Helper, so that He may be with you forever;

2 Corinthians 1:22
placed His seal on us, and put His Spirit in our hearts as a pledge of what is to come.


Hebrews 7:25
25 Consequently, he is able to save to the uttermost those who draw near to God through him, since he always lives to make intercession for them.

 

[BillyBob]

Why believe the doctor?

I'm not sure what a tomatoe is, but I think they are saying that you should place your trust in them!

 

[studier]

I would say the audience who received the letter and the purpose for the letter is the first starting point.

There are two parts to faith, the simple first act of faith, and then the faith of the believer and we need to know which one scripture has in view.

We can read the letter and not insert that we think the original audience thought as we do.

Part of the issue with "faith" is that some systems make the "first act of faith" too "simple" and in doing so mis-define 'faith' by taking it back to being strictly lexical. According to the Text it's not strictly lexical, which, as I said, is a starting point.

 

[Kroogz]

I see continuing in the faith as a confirmation that a person's faith was firmly rooted and established in the hope of the gospel to begin with, and they really HAVE BEEN reconciled.

It makes sense that Paul would speak this way because he is addressing large groups of people who all "profess" to be Christians without being able to infallibly know the actual state of every person's heart. How can Paul avoid giving them false assurance of salvation here when in fact some of them may not be saved? Paul knows that faith which is firmly grounded and established in the gospel from the start will continue. Those who continue in the faith demonstrate thereby that they are genuine believers.

Just as we see in 1 Corinthians 15:1,2 - Moreover, brethren, I declare to you the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received and in which you stand, by which also you are saved, if you hold fast (demonstrative evidence of faith being firmly rooted and established) that word which I preached to you--unless you believed in vain.

To believe in vain is to believe without cause or without effect, to no purpose. The people who fail to hold fast to the word (the gospel) that Paul preached in 1 Corinthians 15:1-4, demonstrated that they "believed in vain" (did not truly believe unto salvation in the first place).

We have "butted heads" on this point before. That is fine.

There are examples of people making shipwreck of their faith. Being handed over to Satan for the destruction of the flesh. There is a sin that leads to death. Saved as if through fire.

I know there are wolves out there. No doubt........But there are believers out there that have fallen away. You and I cannot "see" them.

I know many Catholics that had a moment of clarity and trusted in Christ. And then went back to the familiar, friends,traditions.....their comfort zone.

 

[Genez]

You sure are assuming a lot.
Is this how ALL Christians come to know God?
And why don't we have a "picture" of what the puzzle looks like?
Isn't Jesus that picture?

Do you feel that some Christians DO NOT ACT as Jesus would want them to?
So maybe the picture is missing for some but not for others?

Paul says in Romans that those that do not know the gospel will be judged by what they do know and by
their conscience.

Doesn't this mean that we can rely on our conscience to some extent?

YOU seem to have good will.
I don't think this is true of all "christians".
Been on these boards many years...
Been a moderator.
I know what goes on behind the scenes.
You'd be amazed at how messed up some persons are.
And yet they call themselves Christians.

Strange.
You'd think that Jesus' death would cause our heart to melt
and change us immediately...but, alas, this is not what happens.

Did Jesus fail in His mission?
Some don't even believe He came to bring the Kingdom of God on earth...
Although it seems very clear and is what the Christian religion teaches.


The above goes to the belief that those that do not obey were never saved to begin with.

Jesus meant what He said.
IF you love me,,,you WILL obey Me.

There's the condition.

IF you obey Me.....you love Me.

If we do not obey, we do not love.

I'm getting a lot of pushback on this thread because I state that
we must obey what Jesus taught.

Seems that word MUST is too strong for some.
Is God God,,,or is He just our buddy?

God calls us friends.
He calls us sons.

So does this negate obedience to Him?

I can kill the NEVER WAS SAVED argumen with just 3 of Jesus' teachings.
Seems like we just accept from the NT what is already believed by our own belief system.

We're not going to change anything right here, right now.
But Christianity is losing its salt...
and, I guess, some just have to keep posting what the NT taught.

Here's what I believe:

A doctor tell you that you'll never get cancer.

Another doctor tells you that it's possible to get cancer....
but you won't if you eat one tomatoe every day.

Would you eat that one tomatoe every day or just trust
the doctor that assures you getting cancer is impossible?

(I hate analogies).

I'd eat one tomatoe every day.

What is your objective?
Giving vague generalities in a dogmatic way offers no direction.

What is being obedient to Jesus?

Was he not the Word made flesh?
The entire Word of God?

Or, just one or two commands?

grace and peace....

 

[studier]

Why believe the doctor?

The problem with analogies that @Toknow mentioned earlier.

But, flowing with the argument, it was fine.

Jesus says we MUST eat the tomato every day for the rest of our life here - eat or don't eat????

Or maybe you prefer, Jesus says we must eat the tomato once and if we do, then we're good to go - eat or don't eat???

Or maybe Jesus just inserts the tomato into the internal system of the one He chooses and he's good to go - and then some of the chosen pretend they did eat it???

Analogies...

 

[studier]

NO, the push back is because you assert obedience is necessary to maintain salvation.

Newsflash.. your salvation doctrine does not produce more salt or light... because it is not supported by scripture.

Not really substantive.

Not a good era for news being meaningful.

 

[studier]

I'm not sure what a tomatoe is, but I think they are saying that you should place your trust in them!

The analogy works with 'potato" also.

That could either cause you joy because you like them, or fear because you are one - assuming the avatar is meaningful to you.

 

[HeIsHere]

We have "butted heads" on this point before. That is fine.

There are examples of people making shipwreck of their faith. Being handed over to Satan for the destruction of the flesh. There is a sin that leads to death. Saved as if through fire.

I know there are wolves out there. No doubt........But there are believers out there that have fallen away. You and I cannot "see" them.

I know many Catholics that had a moment of clarity and trusted in Christ. And then went back to the familiar, friends,traditions.....their comfort zone.

Agree 1000 %.

Hebrews is all about Falling from Grace .... which is not Falling from Justification.

"Dead" faith in James is real faith ... it is a faith however which is not in use, inoperative.

Sadly this is one of those "Lordship Salvation" false doctrines that has become widespread in the church.