It's interesting to SEE you folks never focus on the Lord Jesus Christ and His Life, death and resurrection.
It's only about your sanctimonious works.
Loss of salvation???
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It's only about your sanctimonious works.
I think you and I have a very different idea of what it means to honour something.
Does God allow man's free will? Yes, to a point. He allows so much and no more. He would not allow Balaam to curse Israel even though He allowed Balaam to go against His will by leaving with Barak's men. Demons must get His permission to do what they do. ie Job, the "pig scandal" Matt.8 etc
Does He always honour it? Absolutely not. He cannot honour evil.
I don't understand why you think, after He shows us how He doesn't tolerate someone wasting their investment Matt.25 , but then will waste His investment in us by undoing what He has done and allowing us to walk away because "it's not for me"? The fact your mate said "it's" not for me makes me question whether he had a relationship with Christ or whether he simply had a religion.
As for Rom.1 types they exchanged the truth for a lie. The fact one does not believe the truth must necessarily follow one believes a lie. Acknowledging what others are saying is not believing they are speaking the truth. I acknowledge you believe God honour's man's will but I don't believe it is true.
Just as I thought.@studier with all of your "studies" and all of your study materials, sites and books..........You can never deal will NEVER PERISH. SEALED. IMPERISHABLE SEED. FOREVER ADVOCATE. NOTHING CAN SEPARATE US FROM HIS LOVE......And many more.
You don't even pit scripture with scripture, you totally ignore the OBVIOUS.
A little jealous of the teacher you should have stuck with?
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You're following a man instead of JESUS!
Is the man Thieme your Savior??
.To believe on and in Jesus could be understood to be the same. But if I believe into Jesus that is saying so much more.
John 14:12 (YLT) Indeed, I tell you truly, the one believing into Me, the works which I do, that one shall do also, and greater than these he will do, because I go to My Father.
John 14:12 (KJV) Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.
John 14:12 (NET) I tell you the solemn truth, the person who believes in me will perform the miraculous deeds that I am doing, and will perform greater deeds than these because I am going to the Father.
John 17:21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
John 17:22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:
John 17:23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.
No, Us in Him He in us that the world might believe is very literally . We now sit in heavenly places in Christ Jesus. For we who have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. Know you not that Spirit of God dwells in you? It is He that works in us both to will and do His good pleasure,
Yes very literal.
It seems plausible that when a woman follows her husband's false teaching model of his priesthood over her, falsehoods he got from some other sources such as their false teaching pastors demanding a works-based gospel, such as what some are parroting in here, she's still responsible for choosing to follow her husbands false, priestly theology...such as that other gospel that was true in its day but no longer. I don't know of a set of passages that declares a woman will be able to point her finger of accusation at her earthly husband for having preached another gospel, thus leading even small children astray into the sins of falsehoods and dead salvation based upon said works model.
Far too many people don't take seriously the grave warnings within scripture.
MM
Far too many people don't take seriously the grave warnings within scripture.
MM
As soon as you step up and initiate something to discuss, one piece of Scripture at a time, explaining context and why you interpret it as you do.
You have an aptitude for throwing out a verse or a few and alleging it makes your case and being critical of those who may not agree with you, but you're not much for backing it up with any meaningful explanation or argument. IF you could, you might find that I may agree that it's a good argument that should be answered by all of us.
For example, and this is not just to you, @Toknow posted a verse with a conditional clause and essentially told us that one clause would be enough to make her reconsider eternal security if she believed in it. I don't recall any of you discussing that grammar and why she may or may not be correct about it.
As I've said many times, there are a bunch of camp-based soldiers around here who know the camp doctrine but few who can actually discuss Scripture in any depth. You may not be aware of this, but that was one of the criticisms among the upper ranks of a favorite pastor-teacher of ours - he seemed to be producing these soldiers.
Which is just a stupid comment and empty allegation.
Not one of 'you folks' or you 'crowd' can prove we have no focus on our Lord or do not understand His grace.
I can just as easily say to you that you never focus on the LORD Jesus the CHRIST - you deny the importance of a life structured on bowing the knee to Him at every moment - He's rather your buddy who gave you something and will never take it away no matter if you're some dolt who decides to walk away from Him and rejoin those who never did accept Him for who He is and learn His will and live accordingly.
You're proving to me you're a supposed mature meat-eater? Sure you are...
When and how are we saved? That's the fundamental question we are exploring here. You seem to believe that salvation is a single, one-time event, that remains in our past. But I question that assumption. Can you show from scripture that salvation is a one-time event?
Everyone is required to believe and obey God.
I agree that Jesus's statement is true. But I don't draw the same conclusion from it that you do. You are adding an idea that isn't explicitly stated: contingency. This isn't a warning as some suppose. Jesus is being descriptive. In this context, Jesus pictures his father as the master vine grower. To abide in Jesus is to obey him, learn from him, and remain his disciple. Those who don't remain in him, the Father will cut off.
'while that remains a description of what will happen to those who abide and those who don't, Jesus isn't saying that some who didn't abide were "saved." You are adding that part.
Certainly, we can't know who among is is being saved. We can't know the heart of another person. But we CAN know if WE are being saved and we can have assurance of our being saved.
Of course, but don't bury the plot. The Pharisees were self-righteous and judgmental, thinking themselves to be better than other men for all their religiosity. Jesus knew that God was not impressed with those who measured themselves against other men. So, while the Pharisees rejected Jesus because he wasn't keeping the law as the Pharisees understood it, the people accepted Jesus because he loved people, even while teaching them the truth.
The point is, Jesus is willing to overlook the fact that I might not know or practice the right stuff. He is willing to meet anyone, anywhere they live. Jesus rejected self-righteous religiosity, and so we must be cautious and avoid turning Christianity into a merit-based system.
Why add contingency to what Jesus said? You seem to hear Jesus say, some of you may or may not keep them, and some of you might fall away? But you are adding that part. Clearly, Jesus knew that none of them would fall away except Judas, whom Jesus chose for that purpose.
Now, if you want to argue that some who claim to be disciples might fall away or eventually will fall away, then I agree. Some of those who claim to be disciples will fall away. Some believers will fall away. This is why Jesus identifies those who will NOT fall away:
This is best illustrated in the parable of the sower, where Jesus teaches that not all believers are prepared to endure trials and tribulations of faith. Only the seed that fell into the good soil will grow to mature plants and persevere.
There seems to be a misunderstanding between us. When we read Jesus say that his disciples will "keep his commandments' contrary to the common belief, Jesus means to say that his disciples will keep his TEACHING. Many Bible readers make this mistake, confusing Je
It depends on how they define salvation, right?
Could it be that most Christians understand that Salvation is not merit based?
Based on Paul's writings, we say that justification is by faith, not by the works of the law. After the reformation, we have turned this into a slogan, "justification by faith alone," But I would argue that the Bible also teaches "salvation by sanctification alone. Any by "sanctification I don't mean "moral improvement." I mean what the Bible means: enlightenment, knowledge of the Lord, wisdom, clarity, and all the fruits of the Spirit.
Yes, but in what way were they lawless? He gives no direct evidence of lawlessness. It isn't against the law to cast out demons is it?
I disagree. Jesus said that the role of the Holy Spirit is to become his advocate and help his apostles spread his message. We will never be free of our sin nature until our resurrection.
So, after a few attempts at requesting clarity, you leave it for us or me to guess what you're saying. How's this, you're saying eis says so much more than en or hupo - that translations are varied and should treat eis as Young did & translate it literally - that eis tells us that the indwelling relationship in the Son and Father is available to us where in we can be perfected in unity which will show the world that the Father did indeed send Jesus as love for us as you loved Jesus.
That my guess of your intent.
I've always view eis as what it is on the basic spatial chart used to teach in Greek basics. It points forward and speaks of entering into - it is thus in a sense speaking of a transition from outside to inside - and this is important to John and according to Him, to Jesus that this be made clear. Jesus' prayer in John17 would elaborate on this. Paul's use of "in Christ" would fit it well. Jesus' commands to remain en Him in John15:4 tells us we've entered and are now in and are commanded to remain in. Which tells me there is the potential through a lack of obedience which is actually faith-obedience, that we might not remain en Him and become productive as only those who obey Him and remain in Him can become because apart from Him, which is outside of Him, we can do nothing.
Simplify this by briefly and succinctly stating what you think is our difference.
I also read you post to @studier ....
Unless you can clearly explain the difference between
BELIEVING IN JESUS
and
BELIEVING INTO JESUS
the vagueness will remain.
BELIEVE JESUS is different.
BELIEVING IN JESUJS
BELIEVING INTO JESUS is the same.
In other langues I cannot find the expression BELIEVE INTO JESUS.
I do dislike having to use the Greek since I believe we need to trust the NT tranlators...
but anyway...I also checked the original Koine Greek:
This is from the Greek:
Truly, truly I tell you, whoever believes in me will also do the works that I do, and greater than these he will do, because I am going to the Father.
ἀμὴν ἀμὴν λέγω ὑμῖν, ὁ πιστεύων εἰς ἐμὲ τὰ ἔργα ἃ ἐγὼ ποιῶ κἀκεῖνος ποιήσει, καὶ μείζονα τούτων ποιήσει, ὅτι ἐγὼ πρὸς τὸν πατέρα πορεύομαι·
Since you mentioned me I'll mention that my views have changed since becoming saved many moons ago.
1. OSAS sounded very good.
If I just believed Jesus,,,I would be saved.
But then I started reading the NT.
Saw all those IF's....all those conditions....had to find out some Greek words and what they originally mean - like BELIEVE for instance.
2. ONLY those that know about Jesus could b saved...the rest of humanity - billions of God's creatuers - were going straight to hell.
Jesus said ONLY THROUGH ME....but then I read about God being known through creation....how man gropes for Him....the conscience He put in us and an innate knowledge of His existence.
3. I was told that baptism was some kind of external sign.
But then I started reading the bible...it seemed to be much more than that. Jesus commanded it. It says in some places that it washes away sin.
We don't even have to agree about all of the above.
But our discussions should be as intelligent as possible and cordial.
Posters making statements such as YOU PEOPLE
and tellng those that wish to obey God that their going to hell....
is rather unproductive.
We never know when we might actually come to understand something...
and something important.
The turning point for some.
Mine was mainly sometime after learning to read and analyze the Greek. But I also read the English quite a bit before then and always would get checks in my spirit when some things you're speaking of would be taught in a way that didn't seem to match the Text.
I try to remain open to good exegetical arguments. I'm working in the original language and am still finding things I hadn't seen before. For the most part they seem to be substantiating things more in line with what I've seen you saying.
Thanks for explaining.
BTW, see my latest response to @Qt re: eis. I do think it's a point for consideration even though it's rough for English. I saw it decades ago and when I translate it, I normally flag it for myself so I can always let the author say whatever he says.
Actually, I believe the opposite.
I believe we WERE saved Ephesians 2:8
we ARE BEING saved 1 Cor 1:18
we WILL be saved 1 Peter 1:5
I'd say that most Christians remember when they decided to RFEPENT and begin their walk with God.
I said unbelievers are not required to obey God.
You're saying that they are?
Why?
Why would they obey a God they don't believe in?
I agree.
Did I ask what you mean by CONTINGENCY?
I do want to say that when Jesus gives a warning, it's not DESCRIPTIVE...although some passages are.
When Jesus gives a warning...we should sit up and take notice.
If Jesus says we will be like the foolish man who did NOT ACT on His words,,,,
and his house fell.....
that does not sound descriptive to me.
If we do not stress obedience to God...
we are cheapening His sacrifice.
Some here seem to believe the opposite.
We are told to believe in action/deeds and not in hearing only.
James 1:22
22But prove yourselves doers of the word, and not merely hearers who delude themselves.
1 John 3:18
18Little children, let us not love with word or with tongue, but in deed and truth.
No sir. I do not add to scripture.
But I also do not take away from it.
Let's look again at what Jesus taught:
John 15:1-2
1“I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser.
2“Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit, He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit, He prunes it so that it may bear more fruit.
JESUS said that every branch IN HIM that does not bear fruit......
Is a person IN JESUS a saved person?
That person IN JESUS must bear fruit or GOD will take that branch away.
And just so we understand very clearly...
GOD takes those that DO bear fruit and prunes them so that they will bear even more.
So what happens to those branches that are taken away?
That do NOT abide in Christ?
John 15:8
6“If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away as a branch and dries up; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire and they are burned.
Why would the above be problematic to someone who knows they are IN CHRIST
and is planning to remain there?
Agreed.
I can be assured of my salvation for as long as I am IN CHRIST.
And if I am in Christ....I will be obeying Him.
The Pharisees have nothing to do with my point.
Jesus ate with sinners to convert them.
Not to party with them.
THAT was my point.
Notice that you did say that Jesus was teaching people the truth.
That was my point.....
and
we have to accept the truth Jesus taught instead of trying to change it.
1 of 2
2 of 2
Agreed.
Is there supposed to be a conversion after repentence?
Would you say that this conversion is a merit based system?
Why would my saying that God MUST be obeyed....
is turning Christianity into a merit based system?
Do you have any idea of how these new ideas are CHANGING Christianity?
Do you realize that OSAS was never taught until very recently by someone that taught that we only had to believe the gospel to be saved with nothing else added?
So do we believe Jesus or do we believe those that teach what has come to be known as easy believism?
First of all, please explain contingency.
I don't SEEM to hear Jesus say something....
I hear what He's saying.
I believe I posted 3 passages that clearly show that Jesus taught that salvation could not be permanent.
If not,,,I'd be happy to post them again.
Jesus taught we could lose our salvation....
not me or anyone on this Forum.
We should just read what the NT states and bring nothing of our own to it.
I believe you're using the word CONTINGENCY incorrectly.
Jesus KNEW what could happen to some....
You do say that some believers are not prepared for trials and tribulations.
So are you saying that only immature believers can fall away?
Could you give some scripture?
The good soil means those that are willing to listen.
The seed is the word of God. Luke 8.11
Some are beside the road,,,they hear the word but do not take it to heart. Verse 12
Some hear the word, receive it with joy, they believe for a while and then allow temptation to make then
FALL AWAY. They are falling away from something. What if not their very salvation. Verse 13
Some come to believe but allow the world to keep them from forming a good relationship,,,
they end up back in the world. Not sure these were ever saved. Verse 14
Some seed falls into good soil. They HEAR the word, and they hold it fast....
they KEEP ABIDING...and they BEAR FRUIT.
It's also explained by Jesus in matthew 13:18...................
So let's be the good soil and bear fruit and not be afraid of saying it or believing it.
Interesting.
Never heard this before.
So you believe that a TEACHING of Jesus
is different than
a COMMAND of Jesus?
You do believe Jesus is God, right?
Jesus taught that we are to do the Father's will. ..... He said:
Mattthew 7:21
21“Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter.
Besides crying Lord Lord, as some do....it seems to me that we re to do the will of the Father.
Everything Jesus taught is the will of the Father....
Or is the will of the Father that we only believe Jesus
but do not have to believe IN Jesus?
Even the demons believe Jesus.
What do you mean by that?
You mentioned it up above too?
Are we expected to do NOTHING?
Please explain better.
Also, it would be nice to explain the word MERIT,,,
but it leads into rabbit holes and we have enough here.
Think about this for a minute, since we're have a really good conversation here,
and which I know won't go on forever...
We cannot EARN heaven.
But we could MERIT heaven.
Do you see any distinction between the two words?
Now we're at the meat.
Finally.
We are justified by faith alone.
Every single chistian believes this.
But, right, are we sanctified by faith alone?
You said you DO NOT mean moral improvement...
but THAT, dear friend, is what sanctification is all about.
The transformation that Paul speaks of.
Are we supposed to be transformed?
You mentioned the fruits.
So we GET something...
but we're not required to GIVE something.
This is the most honest conversation I've had and I respect you for that.
Paul said we're to work out our salvation. Philippians 2
He said that EVEN HE might be disqualified if he doesn't buffet his body..his flesh. 1 cor 9
He tells us that we are to imitate God as beloved children Eph 5
He tell us to walk in a manner worhty of our calling. Eph 4
Isn't the above referring to sanctification?
Do we have to do it,,,or could we choose not to?
2 Timothy 2:21
21Therefore, if anyone cleanses himself from what is dishonorable, he will be a vessel for honorable use, set apart as holy, useful to the master of the house, ready for every good work.
It's breaking the law.
Which Law?
The law of Christ.
Those that were casting out demons were serving in name only....
Jesus wants His disciples to believe IN HIM.
We are not under THE LAW (the Mosaic Law)
but we ARE under the Law of Christ.
The Law of obedience.
The obedience of faith.
Romans 1:5
5through whom we have received grace and apostleship to bring about the obedience of faith among all the Gentiles for His name’s sake, 6among whom you also are the called of Jesus Christ;
Here it is:
"The Holy Spirit is supposed to help us suppress the sin nature.
If my behavior arises from the type of individual I am...then where is the transformation? "
Your response is that this is not the work of the Holy Spirit....
and that the Holy Spirit is to help us spread the message of God.
That's all the Holy Spirit does?
How about convicting us of sin?
John 16:7
7“But I tell you the truth, it is to your advantage that I go away; for if I do not go away, the Helper will not come to you; but if I go, I will send Him to you.
8“And He, when He comes, will convict the world concerning sin and righteousness and judgment;
As to the sin nature....
I never said it is eliminated.
Sinless perfection is not possible.
Even the Weslyans gave up on that.
I said it is suppressed.
If we are not suppressing it,,,then we're living in the flesh.
Thanks for a good convo....
will be happy if you respond...but, like I said, this will not go on forever.
But it's good to share our belief system...
Jesus is willing to meet anyone where they are.
Agreed.
Is there supposed to be a conversion after repentence?
Would you say that this conversion is a merit based system?
Why would my saying that God MUST be obeyed....
is turning Christianity into a merit based system?
Do you have any idea of how these new ideas are CHANGING Christianity?
Do you realize that OSAS was never taught until very recently by someone that taught that we only had to believe the gospel to be saved with nothing else added?
So do we believe Jesus or do we believe those that teach what has come to be known as easy believism?
What?
First of all, please explain contingency.
I don't SEEM to hear Jesus say something....
I hear what He's saying.
I believe I posted 3 passages that clearly show that Jesus taught that salvation could not be permanent.
If not,,,I'd be happy to post them again.
Jesus taught we could lose our salvation....
not me or anyone on this Forum.
We should just read what the NT states and bring nothing of our own to it.
I believe you're using the word CONTINGENCY incorrectly.
Jesus KNEW what could happen to some....
You do say above that some believers will fall away.
You do say that some believers are not prepared for trials and tribulations.
So are you saying that only immature believers can fall away?
Could you give some scripture?
The good soil means those that are willing to listen.
The seed is the word of God. Luke 8.11
Some are beside the road,,,they hear the word but do not take it to heart. Verse 12
Some hear the word, receive it with joy, they believe for a while and then allow temptation to make then
FALL AWAY. They are falling away from something. What if not their very salvation. Verse 13
Some come to believe but allow the world to keep them from forming a good relationship,,,
they end up back in the world. Not sure these were ever saved. Verse 14
Some seed falls into good soil. They HEAR the word, and they hold it fast....
they KEEP ABIDING...and they BEAR FRUIT.
It's also explained by Jesus in matthew 13:18...................
So let's be the good soil and bear fruit and not be afraid of saying it or believing it.
Interesting.
Never heard this before.
So you believe that a TEACHING of Jesus
is different than
a COMMAND of Jesus?
You do believe Jesus is God, right?
Jesus taught that we are to do the Father's will. ..... He said:
Mattthew 7:21
21“Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter.
Besides crying Lord Lord, as some do....it seems to me that we re to do the will of the Father.
Everything Jesus taught is the will of the Father....
Or is the will of the Father that we only believe Jesus
but do not have to believe IN Jesus?
Even the demons believe Jesus.
What does merit based mean?
What do you mean by that?
You mentioned it up above too?
Are we expected to do NOTHING?
Please explain better.
Also, it would be nice to explain the word MERIT,,,
but it leads into rabbit holes and we have enough here.
Think about this for a minute, since we're have a really good conversation here,
and which I know won't go on forever...
We cannot EARN heaven.
But we could MERIT heaven.
Do you see any distinction between the two words?
Now we're at the meat.
Finally.
We are justified by faith alone.
Every single chistian believes this.
But, right, are we sanctified by faith alone?
You said you DO NOT mean moral improvement...
but THAT, dear friend, is what sanctification is all about.
The transformation that Paul speaks of.
Are we supposed to be transformed?
You mentioned the fruits.
So we GET something...
but we're not required to GIVE something.
This is the most honest conversation I've had and I respect you for that.
Paul said we're to work out our salvation. Philippians 2
He said that EVEN HE might be disqualified if he doesn't buffet his body..his flesh. 1 cor 9
He tells us that we are to imitate God as beloved children Eph 5
He tell us to walk in a manner worhty of our calling. Eph 4
Isn't the above referring to sanctification?
Do we have to do it,,,or could we choose not to?
2 Timothy 2:21
21Therefore, if anyone cleanses himself from what is dishonorable, he will be a vessel for honorable use, set apart as holy, useful to the master of the house, ready for every good work.
Lawless, in Matthew 7 means not doing the will of the Father, which Jesus had just alluded to.
It's breaking the law.
Which Law?
The law of Christ.
Those that were casting out demons were serving in name only....
Jesus wants His disciples to believe IN HIM.
We are not under THE LAW (the Mosaic Law)
but we ARE under the Law of Christ.
The Law of obedience.
The obedience of faith.
Romans 1:5
5through whom we have received grace and apostleship to bring about the obedience of faith among all the Gentiles for His name’s sake, 6among whom you also are the called of Jesus Christ;
Went back to read what I stated:
Here it is:
"The Holy Spirit is supposed to help us suppress the sin nature.
If my behavior arises from the type of individual I am...then where is the transformation? "
Your response is that this is not the work of the Holy Spirit....
and that the Holy Spirit is to help us spread the message of God.
That's all the Holy Spirit does?
How about convicting us of sin?
John 16:7
7“But I tell you the truth, it is to your advantage that I go away; for if I do not go away, the Helper will not come to you; but if I go, I will send Him to you.
8“And He, when He comes, will convict the world concerning sin and righteousness and judgment;
As to the sin nature....
I never said it is eliminated.
Sinless perfection is not possible.
Even the Weslyans gave up on that.
I said it is suppressed.
If we are not suppressing it,,,then we're living in the flesh.
Thanks for a good convo....
will be happy if you respond...but, like I said, this will not go on forever.
But it's good to share our belief system...
I speak 3 languages.
Not Greek.
I just don't see the difference beteen IN and INTO
and the other languages use IN for John 14:12
I know how difficult it is to translate from one lagnuage to another.
I'm not putting down the Greek....I just don't think it' s necessary for lay persons - non-scholars.
Looks like we have all we could handle just using the Enlgish.
My original problem was scripture that seemed to be conflicting.
I knew that was impossible so we really do need to harmonize/reconcile scripture.
Agreed.
Your last paragraph explains it perfectly.
We are entering INTO something...Jesus
So now we are IN Jesus.
Perfect harmonization, if I've understood correctly.
PS maybe in Greek it does state that we are entering INTO Him.
I know that some of the deeper meanings are lost when translated into English.
But the idea is still there.
Yes, IMO John is not only presenting a transition from outside to inside - as he does when he speaks of dualities like from darkness to light and such things, but there is also thinking that this may correlate to Hebrew language and thinking that John is drawing the Greek back to - it speaks of a bit more of being relational and covenantal vs. Greek legal concepts.
Always more to learn and consider if we care to.