Loss of salvation???

[Toknow]

I trust what the New Testament means. To find out what the author meant, we sometimes need to look at the text in its original language. You ask as if you are not aware of this reality. Do you always accept the translation as written?

Yes sir.
I trust the translators.
I trust what Jesus taught.
I trust what paul and the other writers taught.

No need for the original language.
The NT is very clear in the teachings of jesus.

In fact, I trust the translators most of the time. After all, they are scholars and they know the Greek better than I do. But I have also produced my own translations, simply as a form of Bible study, and I have learned the pitfalls and hazards of translation. There are some verses where the translation is ambiguous or uncertain, and in these cases, I find it helpful to use the Greek tools and the help of other Bible teachers to help me work through the passage.

This could happen. I was in a debate a few years ago with a reformed believer who thought that God DRAGGED some to Himself...
so, in that case, the Greek was necessary for HIM....

Not for me.
I speak 3 languages,,,all I had to do was take out one of my bibles in a different language and,
voila'....there it was. No Greek necessary.

But you and I are looking at the same texts and arriving at two distinct, incompatible interpretations. What accounts for the difference? I noticed that you are adding concepts to the text that aren't there. I figured you would want to know.

I do not add.
I do not subtract.

I post the verse....
tell how I understand it.
Maybe support it with other verses.

The reasons we do not agree is because Christianity is being watered down by modern heresies.
The were rejected and removed from the early church...
today, we have no authority to do this.
Maybe we should before Christianity dies altogether.

Where does he say that those whom God is saving will not obey him?

The Grace comes first, then the faith

Sounds reformed.
I'll let it go.

God gives His grace to anyone that wants it.
THROUGH FAITH we are saved...by God's goodness (grace).

If someone is in Christ, they will never fall away, as Peter has said

That is not what the NT teaches.

I do believe I posted some verses:


Falling away is possible:

1 timothy 4.1
1But the Spirit explicitly says that in later times some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons,


Hebrews 3:12
12Take care, brethren, that there not be in any one of you an evil, unbelieving heart that falls away from the living God.


Maybe you'd like to address those verses before continuing or ignoring them.

It depends on our status before God. If we are chosen, he is not bothered by our free will choices because salvation invoves a transformation of our will' That is what it means to be Born Again."

HOW are we chosen?

Read the entire parable. Jesus considers the unbeliever and the three believers. Out of the three believers, two fall away and one perseveres. What made the difference?

Jesus’ parable of the sower portrays God as the wise and patient farmer who takes responsibility for preparing the soil of the human heart. The seed is always good, but the difference in outcome comes from the condition of the soil—a condition God Himself tends. He breaks up the hardness, clears the thorns, and enriches the ground so that those who hear the word can endure, mature, and bear fruit. This means perseverance is not a self-generated achievement but the result of God’s prior, gracious work. We do not cultivate our own hearts; the Father does the cultivating, ensuring that His people receive the word with depth, endurance, and a harvest that reflects His faithful care.

Abiding in the vine is Jesus’ way of showing that the life, strength, and fruitfulness of a believer come entirely from His own sustaining life, not from the branch’s independent effort. Just as a branch cannot make itself alive, cannot attach itself to the vine, and cannot produce fruit by straining, so a disciple cannot generate spiritual endurance or obedience by sheer willpower. The Father is the vinedresser who tends, prunes, and protects the branches, ensuring that those who truly share the life of the Son will bear the fruit that corresponds to that life. Abiding, then, is not a precarious performance but the visible expression of an already‑given union—God’s own work of joining a person to Christ and sustaining them in Him. The fruit that appears is the inevitable outcome of His faithful care, just as the perseverance of the branch is the result of the vine’s unbroken life flowing into it.

I've noticed that it takes many sentences to twist what Jesus CLEARLY stated.

HE BELIEVED FOR A WHILE.

is one that believes saved?
Yes. He is.

That person,,,believed FOR A WHILE...
and then HE FELL AWAY.

Jesus said it,
not me.

And abiding in the vine?
Ditto.

JESUS said THOSE IN HIM......the save do not produce fruit...we will be removed from the vine.

See.
Easy.

No paragraphs needed to explain.

1 of 2

 

[Toknow]

2 of 2

Yes, of course. He does it all the time. Remember the account of Nicodemus? Jesus explicitly states that Nicodemus's ability to recognize the kingdom of God was to be an act of the Holy Spirit.

Where is the above stated in John 3?
jesus said a man must be born from above.
Where does it say that the Holy Spirit does this explicitly.

Only when the Holy Spirit opened his eyes could Nicodemus see, and understand what message the miracles were meant to convey.

Where is this stated?
I might have missed it.

Now, when Paul says we are saved BY GRACE THROUGH FAITH what does he mean? The New Testament uses “by” and “through” to mark two different layers of agency, especially when describing how God works in salvation, sanctification, and mission. The distinction is subtle in English but consistent in the Greek patterns behind it. The key idea is that “by” usually points to the ultimate agent, while “through” points to the instrument or means that the ultimate agent uses.

Please explain WHY this is important.
WE ARE SAVED BY FAITH.
WE AR SAVED THROUGH FAITH.

• By God — identifies the source, the one who initiates and empowers the action.
  • Example: “By grace you have been saved” (Eph 2:8). Grace is the source; God is the primary actor.

Grace will NOT save if there is no faith.

• Through Christ — identifies the mediating agent, the channel or means by which God accomplishes His work.
  • Example: “Through Him we have access to the Father” (Rom 5:2). Christ is the mediator of what the Father gives.

Jesus is not mentioned in Ephesians 2:8
FAITH could be the mediating agent/cause.

• Through the Spirit — identifies the empowering presencewho applies God’s work to the believer.
  • Example: “If by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body…” (Rom 8:13). The Spirit is the means by which God enables obedience.

But it says BY THE SPIRIT
and not THROUGH THE SPIRIT.

I find that when persons want to use the Greek language...
they just are not willing to accept the FINAL OUTCOME.

The final outcome is SALVATION.
By or Through God's goodness
because we have obeyed and believe.

---

So when Scripture says something happens “by God”, it means God is the origin of the action.
When it says something happens “through Christ” or “through the Spirit”, it means God is acting by means of Christ or the Spirit.

You're sounding very reformed.
God is ALWAYS the origin of everything to do with soteriology.
God initiates...not us.

BY GOD WE ARE SAVED.
Means that God saves us.

BUT WITH OUR PERMISSION.

Right, they were created.

So you must agree, then, that those whom God is saving can never fall away.

Yes. It's a simple matter of logic: IF A then B. If our faith is tested and it is proven, then our hope will not disappoint.

More puzz;e pieces that don't belong.

You've been asked to provide scripture that proves that we cannot lose our salvation.

I don't see any.

You realize that you are changing it from "through faith" to "by faith", which denies the power of God and places the onus on us?

Maybe YOU don't understand the power of God and require WORDS to accept it.

i believe Christians know the power of God even without precise words that explain it.

We are protected from being tempted beyond our ability to survive.

That's not me saying it. That is Paul, Peter, and James saying it.

For the chosen, whom God is saving, it is impossible for them to fall away.

Romans 5:1-5, 1 Peter 1:7, and James 1:2

Oh.
Finally, some verses.
Let's take a look.

1.

Romans 5:1-5
1Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, 2through whom also we have obtained our introduction by faith into this grace in which we stand; and we exult in hope of the glory of God. 3And not only this, but we also exult in our tribulations, knowing that tribulation brings about perseverance; 4and perseverance, proven character; and proven character, hope; 5and hope does not disappoint, because the love of God has been poured out within our hearts through the Holy Spirit who was given to us.
Where does the above state that salvataion cannot be lost?
It explains how one is saved.
THROUGH our Lord Jesus we have peace with God.
It states that tribulation will bring about perseverance...
even Jesus said that those who PERSEVER will be saved.
And Jesus said that tribulation could cause one to FALL AWAY.

Paul HIMSELF,,,,states that we could lose our salvation.

Colossians 1:20-22
21And although you were formerly alienated and hostile in mind, engaged in evil deeds,

22yet He has now reconciled you in His fleshly body through death, in order to present you before Him holy and blameless and beyond reproach—

23if indeed you continue in the faith firmly established and steadfast,
Paul,,,the same Paul that wrote Romans 5.....
also stated that we will be presented holy IF we CONTINUE in THE FAITH.
2.

1 Peter 1:7
7so that the proof of your faith, being more precious than gold which is perishable, even though tested by fire, may be found to result in praise and glory and honor at the revelation of Jesus Christ;


Our faith may be found to result in praise and glory.
MAY BE FOUND. in other languages. MAY BE VERIFIED...it will require verification.
NOT
WILL BE FOUND.


We have to remember that this is the same Peter who also wrote:
2 Peter 2:20-22
20For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world by the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and are overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first.

21For it would be better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn away from the holy commandment handed on to them.

22It has happened to them according to the true proverb, “A DOG RETURNS TO ITS OWN VOMIT,” and, “A sow, after washing, returns to wallowing in the mire.”


Unless Peter is contradicting himself,,, we have to read 1 Peter 1:7 very carefully.


3.
James 1:2
2Consider it all joy, my brethren, when you encounter various trials, 3knowing that the testing of your faith produces endurance. 4And let endurance have its perfect result, so that you may be perfect and complete, lacking in nothing.
Yes. James. Who taught that faith wihtout works is a dead faith.
He is above saying that we require a perfect result...so that we may be complete and lacking in nothing.
Endurance must have a perfect result.
Those verses were not stating at all that it is impossible to lose our salvation.
There might be some others,,,,but I haven't found any yet,

Know why Roger?
IF you did find such a verse...
we would have a really good conflict in the NT
and we might as well throw out our bibles.

No conflict in the NT.
All verses must be harmonized.

 

[Toknow]

Thank you for your prayer and your feedback. And to you as well.

I thought the author did a pretty good job on that article. And I agree with your post.

The tendency seems to be in too many aspects of theology, IMO, to think we have to negate one so we can have the other, but this can also be a false-dichotomy, an either or vs. a both/and or even another point legitimately brought in - genuine believing is not just what we do, but also what we think.

Then, in the end, he's reviewing 2 words, not just eis, but pisteuo eis - most literally (as you know) to believe into.

So most simply, then trending then into the deeper sense of the words and the overall reality of what we're speaking about, to believe begins with being convinced of certain facts. And eis speaks of proceeding forth and into something.

These are used by John relationally and contextually in regard to accepting/believing who Jesus is and that acceptance eventuating in us entering into a living union and relationship with Him.

Then as your quoted verses tell us, that relationship is mandated to be abiding/remaining & very productive. Again as you note in giving us these verses, it is also a submission to His authority - He commands us to abide in [union] with Him - which matches what the author of the article said that is the Jewishness of pisteuo eis that John uses so dynamically & relationally - our relationship with YHWH's Christ/King and our Lord is one of obedience to Him - Paul calls it obedience [of] faith that he was tasked to bring the nations to - and this is faith-obedience - which really just trends into faithfulness - being faithful to Him according to His will.

Appreciate your response.

I read the above and it has made everything much clearer than I even thought I understood.
I'd like @Qt to know that I agree with this nuance in that it expains much better being IN CHRIST.

Qt does not have to respond to my last post to him, unless he wants to, of course.

 

[Mem]

I'll honor/accept/respect your right to choose to disagree.

Honoring the right to choose is in itself is not only affording another some degree of freedom but it occurs to me that it also places a degree of dignity on them. This dignity as something I reserve as having a right to is trending as a current contemplation, and I notice that it seems to correlate with honor.

 

[studier]

Honoring the right to choose is in itself is not only affording another some degree of freedom but it occurs to me that it also places a degree of dignity on them. This dignity as something I reserve as having a right to is trending as a current contemplation, and I notice that it seems to correlate with honor.

Yes - that's precisely what we've been getting at. Honoring the right to choose is an expression of dignity. 'Honoring' is actually the better of the overlapping words to use here. It's not that God desires or approves of the decision (especially when it's unbelief), and He certainly doesn't commend or praise it - but He affords it the dignity that His volitional creatures were created with. He lets the choice stand as genuinely ours, then responds in keeping with His justice and mercy: life to belief, condemnation to unbelief. Thanks for the contemplation and bringing out the dignity sense.

 

[HeIsHere]

It's eisegesis. Nothing more.

If you want to bring in hermeneutics, then it's called presuppositional hermeneutics which are not to be done with doctrines like ES. Your kidding yourself if you think otherwise and so is the one telling you these things.

Proper hermeneutics are based in exegesis, not eisegesis.

Again, where'd you get this nonsense?

Are you asserting that scripture does not affirm/teach the absolute security of the believer?

 

[HeIsHere]

YOU are as far away from hermeneutics as we are to the sun...
maybe more.

But I'm here to tell you that I must be leaving for a while.
Due to time constraints.
But fear not Jeff.
Your favorite gal on these Forums shall return.
just so you could have some fun THINKING that you're upseetting her.
Something you, my dear sir, will never be able to do.
That could only be accomplished by someone I respect.

FranC you have not changed on iota.

Hermeneutics aside, not they I think you understand it, or having any formal training regarding interpreting any text, those of us on here who are saved, have the Holy Spirit within affirming that we are eternally saved to the uttermost and it is an irrevocable Gift.

 

[HeIsHere]

Yep. "Christ is raised" is eisegesis. And being "raised with Him" is also eisegesis. Didn't you know?

Col 3:1~~Since, then, you have been raised with Christ, set your hearts on things above, where Christ is, seated at the right hand of God.

The loss of salvation crowd sure don't have their hearts set on things above.

Thank you.

May God have mercy on them making God fickle, trying to add to what Christ Jesus already accomplished.

Seven eternal promises to the Born Again Believer:

For a Christian to lose their salvation and be expelled from the kingdom…

1. God would have to forsake us, when he said he wouldn’t (Heb 13:5)
2. God would have to cast us out, when he said he wouldn’t (John 6:37)
3. God would have to condemn us, when he said he wouldn’t (Rom 8:1,34)
4. God would have to withdraw his Spirit, when he said he wouldn’t (John 14:16-17)
5. God would have to remember our sins, when he said he wouldn’t (Jer 31:34, Heb 10:17)
6. God would have to forget that we are his children, when he said he wouldn’t (Is 49:15)
7. God would have to blot our names out of the book of life, when he said he wouldn’t (Rev 3:5)

 

[studier]

Are you asserting that scripture does not affirm/teach the absolute security of the believer?

Actually I was asserting that you were misrepresenting proper exegesis and hermeneutics based upon proper exegesis. In answer to your question now that you've pivoted away from interpretive methods, as I understand you I don't agree with your view of "absolute security" and I wouldn't automatically think we'd agree on what a "believer" is.

 

[Toknow]

FranC you have not changed on iota.

And I most certainly hope I never do!
Why change something this nice?

Hermeneutics aside, not they I think you understand it, or having any formal training regarding interpreting any text, those of us on here who are saved, have the Holy Spirit within affirming that we are eternally saved to the uttermost and it is an irrevocable Gift.

I have no formal training.
What do I know?
What does hermeneutics even mean?
I just use the word because I saw it written down somewhere.
Interpretation?
Huh?
What does that even mean?

But, ya know, now that I come to think of it....
sometimes I've received gifts I've thrown out !

Ain't that terrible of me?

Hang in there Jeff.
I shall return.

I sure hope you're cute.
It's good to have cute guys waitin' for ya!

 

[HeIsHere]

Actually I was asserting that you were misrepresenting proper exegesis and hermeneutics based upon proper exegesis. In answer to your question now that you've pivoted away from interpretive methods, as I understand you I don't agree with your view of "absolute security" and I wouldn't automatically think we'd agree on what a "believer" is.

I am not misrepresenting proper hermeneutics, that is false.

Hermeneutics:

-old testament symbolism and connections

-audience relevance,

-historical/cultural context,

-time indicators

-literary context

-define the terms

-logic

-unity

Study to show thyself approved.

 

[HeIsHere]

And I most certainly hope I never do!
Why change something this nice?


I have no formal training.
What do I know?
What does hermeneutics even mean?
I just use the word because I saw it written down somewhere.
Interpretation?
Huh?
What does that even mean?

But, ya know, now that I come to think of it....
sometimes I've received gifts I've thrown out !

Ain't that terrible of me?

Hang in there Jeff.
I shall return.

I sure hope you're cute.
It's good to have cute guys waitin' for ya!

Oh like you thought David was cute?

 

[studier]

I am not misrepresenting proper hermeneutics, that is false.

Hermeneutics:

-old testament symbolism and connections

-audience relevance,

-historical/cultural context,

-time indicators

-literary context

-define the terms

-logic

-unity

Study to show thyself approved.

OK. Paste a list from somewhere and that proves understanding hermeneutics after you've perfectly described an eisegetical process as being proper. Paste a list of Scriptures and paraphrased interpretation apart from surrounding context and show thyself approved.

 

[Toknow]

Oh like you thought David was cute?

Hey!

Every guy is cute...
well, I'm not sure about you.

 

[HeIsHere]

OK. Paste a list from somewhere and that proves understanding hermeneutics after you've perfectly described an eisegetical process as being proper. Paste a list of Scriptures and paraphrased interpretation apart from surrounding context and show thyself approved.

I understand hermeneutics because I went to school and had to learn it and use it... you know to research and write papers and all that.
The list is standard for the Bible so it is not my list.

Meh, you are just sore cause you know @Kroogz, @Musicmaster @Genez @sawdust @mailmandan and who ever else has been on this thread have shown over and over again the Good News of scripture IS Saved IS SAVED.

 

[Kroogz]

I am not misrepresenting proper hermeneutics, that is false.

Hermeneutics:

-old testament symbolism and connections

-audience relevance,

-historical/cultural context,

-time indicators

-literary context

-define the terms

-logic

-unity

Study to show thyself approved.

There is another one........Common sense. Basic, easy to understand, stand alone truths.

John 8:58~~ the deity of the Lord Jesus Christ: Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly,(for certain,indeed,without a doubt) I say to you, before Abraham was born, I am.”

John 5:24~~ eternal security: “Truly, truly, (for certain,indeed,without a doubt)I say to you, he who hears My Word, and believes Him Who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.”

 

[Toknow]

I understand hermeneutics because I went to school and had to learn it and use it... you know to research and write papers and all that.
The list is standard for the Bible so it is not my list.

Meh, you are just sore cause you know @Kroogz, @Musicmaster @Genez @sawdust @mailmandan and who ever else has been on this thread have shown over and over again the Good News of scripture IS Saved IS SAVED.

Nice little clique there.
I would remove mailmandan.
The rest, yeah, I would not be happy to belong to that clique.

 

[HeIsHere]

There is another one........Common sense. Basic, easy to understand, stand alone truths.

John 8:58~~ the deity of the Lord Jesus Christ: Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly,(for certain,indeed,without a doubt) I say to you, before Abraham was born, I am.”

John 5:24~~ eternal security: “Truly, truly, (for certain,indeed,without a doubt)I say to you, he who hears My Word, and believes Him Who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.”

Excellent verses "has eternal LIFE!" present possession ...... Seriously, I became a (born from above) believer almost 35 years ago and I could plainly read what is written in Scripture, no fancy hermeneutics required.

Even then...... I knew enough that less clear scripture where deeper understanding and context were required, could never be placed above the clear written promises and declarations of Christ Jesus, Paul, Peter, James et. al.,

 

[Kroogz]

Even then...... I knew enough that less clear scripture where deeper understanding and context were required, could never be placed above the clear written promises and declarations of Christ Jesus, Paul, Peter, James et. al.,

The basics.The basics.The basics.

If we don't believe and understand the basics.......we go nowhere in the Christian way of life.

And John 5:24 is a true basic eternal security verse. If we don't believe Him who sent Jesus, we will live in death and condemnation and not our new life in Christ. The broad road.

 

[studier]

I understand hermeneutics because I went to school and had to learn it and use it... you know to research and write papers and all that.
The list is standard for the Bible so it is not my list.

Meh, you are just sore cause you know @Kroogz, @Musicmaster @Genez @sawdust @mailmandan and who ever else has been on this thread have shown over and over again the Good News of scripture IS Saved IS SAVED.

I can see you've learned a lot from your posts and the company you keep. Enjoy the day.