Flow like water...proper hermeneutics based in eisegesis...no fancy hermeneutics required...
Loss of salvation???
- Thread starter gratefuloneson
- Start date
-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
Why someone would want to live in uncertainty and put others in uncertainty is beyond me.
IT is indeed ....
“Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life".
Music to my heart!
As with all who assert a losable salvation or a maintained salvation, really the same in the end...you deny yourself what He has to offer.
Again, one brief sentence - 4 major fallacies. And same methodology interpreting the Text and what others actually think and say.As with all who assert a losable salvation or a maintained salvation, really the same in the end...you deny yourself what He has to offer.
Which translator do you trust? How many English versions of the Bible exist? You trust them all, even though they say different things?
I understand you are not interested in languages or language tools. That's fine.
Nonetheless, the only inspired text of the New Testament is the Greek text. Your English text is neither inspired nor authoritative.
It appears as if you didn't read my posts where I pointed out the many times you have added to the text. In order for you to maintain your argument that Jesus' conditional statements are intended to be warnings, you mistakenly add contingency to his statements.
Through faith is not the same as BY faith. We talked about this. God is the one who saves. This is why the text says we were saved by grace. He saves us by giving us faith and using his power to keep us from falling.
Yes, it does. Did you read the verses I sent you? All three Apostles argue that the testing of our faith leads to endurance, and endurance leads to proof, and proof leads to hope. And our hope will not disappoint us because the love of God has been poured out into our hearts.
If, as you say, a person can lose his salvation, then Peter is wrong. The testing of our faith is nothing like silver or gold. Its worthless. Who knows, I might fail next time. The core idea behind the Apostolic argument is the concept of "proof" or "attestedness. Some people have been blessed with a faith that is so resilient that it will never fail. And how does one find out if his or her faith is resilient? When put to the test, it survives.
i go back to the parable of the sower. In two out of three cases of belief, only one type of faith survived. So, I agree, Falling away is possible. What makes the difference between a person who falls away and the person who doesn't fall away? According to the parable, the seed that results in a faith that perseveres was planted in a heart that God had prepared in advance.
Falling away is possible, but those whom God is saving will never fall away.
If I ignored them, it wasn't on purpose, sorry. But I wanted to point out to you that you are arguing against those who believe that a one-time confession is all that is needed for salvation. And some Christians also mistakenly or inadvertently believe that they were saved the moment they confessed belief.
And you are doing well in your argument against "Easy Believism". According to Jesus parable, not everyone who believes will persevere. But some believers do persevere. And I think Jesus would want us to explore and discuss why. It seems like it would be a fruitful discussion. What do you think?
God chooses us according to his purpose, which we may never know.
It also takes many sentences to untwist it.
In what sense are they saved? Delivered from What?
Of course, but Jesus parable describes two believers who fell away and another who didn't. And he explains why the third believer didn't fall away. That's the part we need to discuss further. The ground didn't cultivate itself, did it?
He doesn't say why they left or why they were attached to the vine in the first place. Right? Let's not jump to conclusions. In the parable of the sower, he tells us why people leave and why they stay.
You're so kind.
Thank you for staying away....
Most likely, you would wanted to be the treasurer.
Studier?I can see you've learned a lot from your posts and the company you keep.Enjoy the day.
When it says, "you have been saved by grace?"
What tense is "saved" in the Greek?
......
Later in the same chapter, he says that we must be born of the Spirit, Describing the Spirit of God, he likens it to the wind. We don't see the wind, per se, we see the effects of the wind. Literally, we see the fruits of the Spirit in the one who has been born again.
Jesus tells Nicodemus that unless a person is born again, he won't see the kingdom of God. In this context "to see" is to understand. Nicodemus claimed that Jesus must be the Christ because no one could do all the works that Jesus has done unless he was from God. By his own confession, Nicodemus demonstrated that he was born again.
It has to do with agency. If we were saved "BY faith" it would mean that our faith caused our salvation. But Paul argues that we are saved BY grace, indicating that God is the agent of our salvation.
Giving someone an indestructible faith is the Grace.
In chapter one, Paul lays out the logic of saving faith. First, the Ephesians heard the word of faith; then they believed it; then they were given the indwelling of the Holy Spirit as a marker and a down payment on the rest of their inheritance.
On the contrary, since God is the saving agent, then our belief and obedience are the result not the cause of our salvation.
Where does it say that God needs my permission?
Perhaps you didn't see them. Romans 5:1-5, James 1:2-4, 1 Peter 1:6-8
If it can be lost, then my hope would disappoint. But since my hope will not disappoint, then my salvation can't be lost.
Try to follow Paul's line of thought; he is building an argument.
A. Faith is tested
B. Faith survives and remains
C. Faith has been "attested"
D. The believer persevered.
E. Therefore, his hope will not disappoint.
The key concept here is "attested", which is translated as "proven character." I realize you don't like it when I bring up the Greek, but I think it will add to our understanding of Paul.
The Greek potters tested each pot to see if it would hold water and other liquids. If they passed the test, they were marked on the bottom "passed the test." If they failed the test, the potter would break the pot with a rod.
Paul is arguing that some believers are given resilience and a great ability to endure. God tests their faith so that THEY might see this for themselves. Once they see that their faith will survive the test, they are considered "attested" or proven.
The tests are very difficult, but they are intended to convey the idea "If you endure this test, you will endure any test." You have been attested.
Paul doesn't mean this as a warning or to express contingency. He says this as an encouragement. He does this a lot. When he says, "if indeed you continue in the faith firmly established and steadfast," we should hear him also saying, "and I know you will."
Take for instance his apparent "warning i Hebrews. After warning them about falling away he says to them, "9 But, beloved, we are convinced of better things concerning you, and things that accompany salvation, though we are speaking in this way. 10 For God is not unjust so as to forget your work and the love which you have shown toward His name, in having ministered and in still ministering to the saints.
Paul's purpose is pastoral, not judgmental.
It will only be found to result in praise and glory if it has been proven to be resilient. Peter argues that the proof itself is more precious than gold because it indicates a particular quality of the faith.
Thus the test.
Why? I see no contradiction
Not exactly. He is saying that we have a good reason to rejoice when our faith is tested because after it has been proven to the end {telos: perfect) then we lack nothing. -
Endurance IS the perfect result.
It is saying that when our faith is tested, and it passes the test, salvation is guaranteed. There is no guarantee for the faith that fails the test.
Doesn't that mean it is complete with lasting consequences? He made us alive, it's finished and will never be undone.
It speaks of their current state at the time of writing based upon a past event (likely salvation in Jesus Christ by grace through faith being applied to them). The verb does not speak beyond that. IOW it says nothing about their state beyond this point.
I've come to reason out that modern "Christianity" is very much simpler than I first thought, almost a year ago, when I first started posting, here in these forums.
There are just TWO religious systems in the world TODAY, all the way back to Eden. One the Spirit of Able, the other the spirit of Cain. One obedience, the other disobedience.
Satan has been very proficient at deceiving most folks all through history, into believing his Doctrines of Disobedience. So TODAY, most all men are following after and believing Satan, rather than Jesus.
As in the days of Noah. Matthew 24:37-39 , Luke 17:26-27 ... Most men TODAY prefer to believe Satan and to continue in their lusts "For all that is in the world—the desires of the flesh, the desires of the eyes, and the pride of life." (1 John 2:16 ) ... rather than believing (Noah) Jesus, the Word.
There are just TWO religious systems in the world TODAY, all the way back to Eden. One the Spirit of Able, the other the spirit of Cain. One obedience, the other disobedience.
Satan has been very proficient at deceiving most folks all through history, into believing his Doctrines of Disobedience. So TODAY, most all men are following after and believing Satan, rather than Jesus.
As in the days of Noah. Matthew 24:37-39 , Luke 17:26-27 ... Most men TODAY prefer to believe Satan and to continue in their lusts "For all that is in the world—the desires of the flesh, the desires of the eyes, and the pride of life." (1 John 2:16 ) ... rather than believing (Noah) Jesus, the Word.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Ephesians 2:8-9
For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves,
it is the gift of God— not by works, so that no one can boast.
it is the gift of God— not by works, so that no one can boast.
If we could do no works to earn our salvation?
Then why so some say we can do works to lose it?
What kind of work can we do the lose it, when works had nothing to do with how we got it?
......
Then if it does not speak of their state beyond that time, what causes God to make them dead again?
As studier points out, the verb is not in the past tense. The Greek text describes an event that begins in the past, but continues into the future.
That's a loaded question! Why would clarifying the meaning of a verb lead you to suggest God makes them dead again?