Loss of salvation???

[studier]

Ephesians 2:8-9

For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, ​

it is the gift of God— not by works, so that no one can boast.​

If we could do no works to earn our salvation?
Then why so some say we can do works to lose it?

What kind of work can we do the lose it, when works had nothing to do with how we got it?

......

How do you get from my identifying the tense of the verb to taking us to works? If you desire security to be included in the perfect paraphrastic, and it's not, then you need to go elsewhere in Scripture to prove it.

 

[Toknow]

I made a video about assurance. Assurance of Salvation

I started watching the video.
It's very professional.
Did you write the script?

Within the first few minutes I realized what your concern is.
YOU are worried about some that feel that cannot be assured thier salvation.

I am worried about those that hear that salvation cannot be lost.

Where is the happy medium?

Here's the happy medium,,,
so that those that believe can be assured their salvation.
I get accused of worrying about mine from some on these Forums - not just me, but all who post as I do.
I'm not worried at all.

Why?

Because I decided to say YES to God.
I accepted His gift of salvation and I will be saved unless I decide to abandon the very God that saved me.

We can decide to abandon Him in two ways:

1. A simple decision that Christianity is not for me. I didn't count the cost. I'm looking back.
There could be many reasons...one which Jesus mentioned in Luke 15, which you mentioned, tribulation.

2. The return to a life of sin. OSAS teaches that we cannot lose our salvation ---- no matter what. This is a terrible teaching and is dangerous to some that do not properly understand that a transformation must take place...a conversion. God must be obeyed.
Of course, a life of sin is a conscious decision that one would make...it doesn't just happen by mistake.

Jesus said it best: ABIDE in Me and you will have eternal life (or words to that effect).


There are some on this very thread that do not show any sign of conversion.
Can this be because they do NOT understand that God demands obedience?
Romans says our mind must be transformed and we're not to adhere to the world.
is this truly understood by those that condemn one for just saying that God must be obeyed?
Why this debate?
Does God NOT want obedience?

i taught chirldren our faith, pre-teens and early teens.
I had to be careful of every word I said because so much could be misunderstood.
Can adults also misunderstand?

What is amazing to me is how we understand scripture differnetly.
This is a problem in Christianity today.

I
Protestantism (I'm Protestant) has caused the fracture of Christianity and has caused too many
odd ideas to surface that were never taught in the church until, maybe, a couple of hundred years ago.
OSAS is one of these ideas.

Anyway, yes, we're both concerned...but for different reasons.
I do appreciate your civility...not demonstrated by some on here.
And we have had a good conversation.

Will finish watching the video later on...

And THEY WERE NEVER SAVED TO BEGIN WITH is a total cop-out.
As I showed with some scripture.
THAT idea should be removed from our vocabulary.

The reality is sthat some believe in what is called easy believism.
I don't think you do....
but our ideas do become ingrained, don't they?
What to do?

I have my solution,,,but we Protestants are a bit thick headed about it.
I won't get into it.

 

[Toknow]

As studier points out, the verb is not in the past tense. The Greek text describes an event that begins in the past, but continues into the future.

it continues into the future IF we want it to.

I keep asking if our free will is taken away at salvation.

Do we have to WANT to continue to be saved?

If so,,, do WE have any input into our salvation?

This is what @sawdust stated just above:
Doesn't that mean it is complete with lasting consequences? He made us alive, it's finished and will never be undone.

Does that sound right to you?
IT WILL NEVER BE UNDONE.

Does sawdust have any say in the matter?
Life is long.


And, let me add:
If the statement THEY WERE NEVER REALLY SAVED is correct....

then
it means we can never be sure of our salvation.
That statement CAUSES one to be unable to be assured.

HOW would any of us know whether or not we are really saved?
There would be no way!

Any one of us could be in the NEVER REALLY SAVED camp.

 

[studier]

As studier points out, the verb is not in the past tense. The Greek text describes an event that begins in the past, but continues into the future.

When you say "continues into the future" please explain what you mean - beginning at the past event and forever - or beginning at the past event and future from there up to the point of the discussion - or???

I posted something to you recently on this matter and don't think you responded. Maybe one of us missed the other??

 

[CS1]

Actually, no, I do not agree.

You're talking about context. We don't need this whole chapter of Luke 15 to understand
what Jesus is teaching in all of the examples.

Each one is teaching something different.




The Lost Sheep
Those close to the Jesus do not need help.
It is those that WANDER AWAY that require help.
Jesus will actively seek those that WANDER AWAY form the flock.
The lost sheep would most probably have ended up dead,,,as happens in real life sheep herding...had the shepherd not found it AGAIN.
So let's check:
THE SHEEP WAS IN THE FLOCK
THE SHEEP WANDERED AWAY AND BECAME LOST
THE SHEEP WAS FOUND AGAIN


The parable teaches that salvation can be lost by wandering away.


Agreed.
The coin represents the Kingdom of God here on earth.


The lost sheep was in the fold...
he was SAVED.
He wandered off and became LOST.
He did return.

The parable is most definitely about losing ones salvation.

No sir.
You're reading into the scripture.
You're ADDING your own ideas into scripture.
This is eisegesis and should not be practiced.

Let's check out verse 24 again since you seem to have missed an important point.

Luke 15:24
24for this son of mine was dead and has come to life again; he was lost and has been found.’ And they began to celebrate.


I DO believe Jesus knew what He wanted to teach.
Jesus said that the son has COME TO LIFE AGAIN.

AGAIN means:
the son was
saved
lost
saved again


It is not speaking about someone that was lost and is saved.
The Son was a member of the household.
He asked for his inheritance.
The father gave him 2/3 of the inheritance since he was the first born.
HE LEFT THE HOUSEHOLD.
HE ABANDONED THE FATHER.
He went into the world and realized what a mistake he made.
He CAME BACK HOME and was made alive again.
He rejoined the household.


This reminds me of:

1 Pete 2:20-22
20For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world by the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and are overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first.

21For it would be better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn away from the holy commandment handed on to them.

22It has happened to them according to the true proverb, “A DOG RETURNS TO ITS OWN VOMIT,” and, “A sow, after washing, returns to wallowing in the mire.”
They are
SAVED
LOST
Those that cannot accept the simple teachings of scripture do tend to make up excuses for what Jesus taught.
I believe OSAS is a dangerous teaching...
and it was NEVER a part of church teaching until very recently.
It is NOT an orthodox Christian teaching.


James 3:1
1Let not many of you become teachers, my brethren, knowing that as such we will incur a stricter judgment.

OK then you know it all enjoy.

 

[Toknow]

Which translator do you trust? How many English versions of the Bible exist? You trust them all, even though they say different things?

Roger,,,this really takes too much time!
I think we've said all we can.

I'll just run thru quick:
Every version of the bible says the same.
maybe some word is different...
but the theology does not change.
Not even in other languages.

I understand you are not interested in languages or language tools. That's fine.

Right.
Not interested in the Greek.
No scholarly enough.
But I get the message anyway.

Nonetheless, the only inspired text of the New Testament is the Greek text. Your English text is neither inspired nor authoritative.

Interesting!
Muslims believe one must read the Quran ONLY in Arabic.

I guess you think God spoke Greek.
As to authority...
we protestants should not even mention that word.

It appears as if you didn't read my posts where I pointed out the many times you have added to the text. In order for you to maintain your argument that Jesus' conditional statements are intended to be warnings, you mistakenly add contingency to his statements.

Can't do more than post scripture.
If you think I'm adding OK
But I did happen to read Revelation 22....Deut 4

Through faith is not the same as BY faith. We talked about this. God is the one who saves. This is why the text says we were saved by grace. He saves us by giving us faith and using his power to keep us from falling.

God give us faith?
That sounds reformed.
I've said this before.
No further comment.
BY FAITH
THROUGH FAITH

The nuance is unimportant.
FAITH SAVES. That IS importtant.

Yes, it does. Did you read the verses I sent you? All three Apostles argue that the testing of our faith leads to endurance, and endurance leads to proof, and proof leads to hope. And our hope will not disappoint us because the love of God has been poured out into our hearts.

I read that our faith requires testing.
We DO NEED AN AUTHORITY, don't we??

If, as you say, a person can lose his salvation, then Peter is wrong. The testing of our faith is nothing like silver or gold. Its worthless. Who knows, I might fail next time. The core idea behind the Apostolic argument is the concept of "proof" or "attestedness. Some people have been blessed with a faith that is so resilient that it will never fail. And how does one find out if his or her faith is resilient? When put to the test, it survives.

You take a math test now.
You pass.

Will you pass the next one?

WHAT is needed to pass the test?
THAT is the question.

And if the NT does not convince you that salvation can be forfeited,,,
I certainly will not.

BUT IT CAN.
Given you scripture that you reject.

How does a person reject scripture?
By bringing their own idea to it instead of reading it plainly.

i go back to the parable of the sower. In two out of three cases of belief, only one type of faith survived. So, I agree, Falling away is possible. What makes the difference between a person who falls away and the person who doesn't fall away? According to the parable, the seed that results in a faith that perseveres was planted in a heart that God had prepared in advance.

I thought God prepared all hearts?
Does he not give enough grace to all so that He may be known?
Does the sun not shine on the good and the evil?

You do sound a bit reformed friend.

Falling away is possible, but those whom God is saving will never fall away.

Then, HOW, do I know I'm not one of those that will fall away?
In YOUR system of belief....
NO ONE can ever know that they are saved.

And yet, I KNOW that I am.

John Calvin taught that a person could be saved for a while BY GOD and then GOD makes them fall away.
Not going to look for it unless you ask.

BOOK 3
MAYBE CHAPTER 23
MAYBE PARAGRAPH 8
institutes of the christian religion

If I ignored them, it wasn't on purpose, sorry. But I wanted to point out to you that you are arguing against those who believe that a one-time confession is all that is needed for salvation. And some Christians also mistakenly or inadvertently believe that they were saved the moment they confessed belief.

Actually, we WERE saved the moment we BELIEVED.

If WE BELIEVE
we are SAVED.

the Greek language might come in handy here.

And you are doing well in your argument against "Easy Believism". According to Jesus parable, not everyone who believes will persevere. But some believers do persevere. And I think Jesus would want us to explore and discuss why. It seems like it would be a fruitful discussion. What do you think?

Sure.
But we have to concentrate on one topic....
too much time I don't really have.
sorry.

You said:
And you are doing well in your argument against "Easy Believism". According to Jesus parable, not everyone who believes will persevere. But some believers do persevere. And I think Jesus would want us to explore and discuss why. It seems like it would be a fruitful discussion. What do you think?

Is this easy enough?
Obey God.

God chooses us according to his purpose, which we may never know.

You scare me Roger!
you lean toward calvinism.

It also takes many sentences to untwist it.

In what sense are they saved? Delivered from What?

Not answering.
You're an intelligent fellow.
And I'm not dumb.
We know what we are saved from...
hell is only one item.

Of course, but Jesus parable describes two believers who fell away and another who didn't. And he explains why the third believer didn't fall away. That's the part we need to discuss further. The ground didn't cultivate itself, did it?

Calvinism.
WORK OUT YOUR SALVATION......non-calvinism

He doesn't say why they left or why they were attached to the vine in the first place. Right? Let's not jump to conclusions. In the parable of the sower, he tells us why people leave and why they stay.

Oh my.
HOW John 15:2 could be misinterpreted leaves me to wonder why it isn't.
Doesn't MATTER why they were attached to it in the first place.
The person is IN JESUS.
It is a saved person.

There are many reasons why people leave.
WHY do they stay??

You're stating that people DO leave.
If we LEAVE the protection of Jesus...
we will no longer be saved.

1. Let's conentrate on why they leave.
2. Who was attached to the vine in the first place since you seem ot have some idea about this.
3. and that other topic that I highlighted above......why some persevere.

 

[Toknow]

OK then you know it all enjoy.

In the great big world of Protestantism CS1.....
YOU know just as much as I do.

Just because you're a minister does not mean you are CORRECTLY teaching the NT.
YOU might be minunderstanding doctrine just as much as anyone esle.

Can't address what I spent a good deal of time on?

Fine.

But don't insult me in your non-reply.

I gave you REASONS why i don't agree with you. ( I did NOT tell you I know it all).

Can YOU give ME reasons why you're right?

Apparently not.

 

[studier]

If you think I'm adding OK

Adding contingency to conditional statements was an interesting statement he made. At some point the answer you gave is about all one can do with such thinking. OSAS requires it or something similar to it.

 

[Musicmaster]

Recently, I heard a false teaching pastor, one who parrots the works-based salvation-loss gang's fables that claim we, what is called "dispensational OSAS," separate Jews and Gentiles in spite of the fact that, in Christ, we're all one and the same. That's nothing but yet another failure to uphold what scripture actually says.

Well, in this world, however, the distinctions will continue to live on, especially given that, in Christ, I'm not a neuter or a woman and women are not men nor are they neuter. The distinctions are still very real in this life regardless that, in Christ's salvation of for all who believe His Gospel preached through Paul, is for all in that the distinctions in this world do not override His offer of salvation for all.

The complaint about separation between us Jews and Gentiles, that will continue to be a reality in this world unto the very end and beyond...pointing even into the New Jerusalem. It was beyond that false teaching pastor's comprehension how the Lord does and will continue to recognize distinctions into the new Heavens and new earth and new Jerusalem. Well, that's just the way it will be dare one read scripture for what it says rather than trying to superimpose on'e desired beliefs as being authoritative over the realities revealed and outlined within scripture.

MM

 

[HeIsHere]

How do you get from my identifying the tense of the verb to taking us to works? If you desire security to be included in the perfect paraphrastic, and it's not, then you need to go elsewhere in Scripture to prove it.

Perfect paraphrastic..

SALVATION as a state of being brought about by a previous act (PERFECT)
 ● Ephesians 2:5,8

Therefore the passages affirms saved is saved.

 

[Toknow]

Adding contingency to conditional statements was an interesting statement he made. At some point the answer you gave is about all one can do with such thinking. OSAS requires it or something similar to it.

Right.
I just call this twisting scripture.
it happens when a passage is so clear, so simple to undersand....
that some kind of explanation needs to be made for it so that it harmonizes
with the person's theology.

Isn't the word IF a "contingency"?
Doesn't it mean that a futue event IS possible?
But may not necessarily happen?

My daughter tells me I think too much.
And is it any wonder??!

 

[Toknow]

Perfect paraphrastic..

SALVATION as a state of being brought about by a previous act (PERFECT)
 ● Ephesians 2:5,8

Therefore the passages affirms saved is saved.

LOL
You do hate all those conditions and IF's !

You have been saved. JUSTIFIED
You are being saved. SANCTIFIED
You will be saved. GLORIFIED

Each condition depends on the previous condition.

It's necessary to read ALL of scritpure....
not just the parts you like.

 

[Musicmaster]

OK then you know it all enjoy.

It's meaningless to try and rationalize with those who are not at all rational.

MM

 

[studier]

Recently, I heard a false teaching pastor, one who parrots the works-based salvation-loss gang's fables that claim we, what is called "dispensational OSAS," separate Jews and Gentiles in spite of the fact that, in Christ, we're all one and the same. That's nothing but yet another failure to uphold what scripture actually says.

Well, in this world, however, the distinctions will continue to live on, especially given that, in Christ, I'm not a neuter or a woman and women are not men nor are they neuter. The distinctions are still very real in this life regardless that, in Christ's salvation of for all who believe His Gospel preached through Paul, is for all in that the distinctions in this world do not override His offer of salvation for all.

The complaint about separation between us Jews and Gentiles, that will continue to be a reality in this world unto the very end and beyond...pointing even into the New Jerusalem. It was beyond that false teaching pastor's comprehension how the Lord does and will continue to recognize distinctions into the new Heavens and new earth and new Jerusalem. Well, that's just the way it will be dare one read scripture for what it says rather than trying to superimpose on'e desired beliefs as being authoritative over the realities revealed and outlined within scripture.

MM

IOW, and as usual, 'I'm an Israeli and thus anyone who disagrees with me does not understand Scripture.'

 

[HeIsHere]

LOL
You do hate all those conditions and IF's !

You have been saved. JUSTIFIED
You are being saved. SANCTIFIED
You will be saved. GLORIFIED

Each condition depends on the previous condition.

It's necessary to read ALL of scripture....
not just the parts you like.

Wrong again, we are justified, redeemed, regenerated and positionally sanctified eternally.
It is not possible for a person to ever have the status of JUSTIFIED decreed by GOD revoked!!
All sin atoned for past, present and future, a complete gift.
Conditions are not to maintain spiritual salvation but for discipleship and fellowship.

Christ Jesus met all the conditions.

 

[HeIsHere]

It's meaningless to try and rationalize with those who are not at all rational.

MM

Yeah it really, really is.

 

[studier]

Perfect paraphrastic..

SALVATION as a state of being brought about by a previous act (PERFECT)
 ● Ephesians 2:5,8

Therefore the passages affirms saved is saved.

SALVATION as a state of being - at the moment under discussion and no further - brought about by a previous act (Greek Perfect Paraphrastic tense) - Eph2:8

Therefore the passages affirms saved is saved at the moment under discussion and no further.

 

[HeIsHere]

SALVATION as a state of being - at the moment under discussion and no further - brought about by a previous act (Greek Perfect Paraphrastic tense) - Eph2:8

Therefore the passages affirms saved is saved at the moment under discussion and no further.

You are joking right?
How many nano-seconds does that entail..hilarious.

 

[studier]

It's meaningless to try and rationalize with those who are not at all rational.

MM

As if rationality is based upon being irrational and then supposedly identifying who is rational, or being an Israeli or having a ThM or being a minister or knowing Greek or holding to a certain theological system or....

Oy vey...

 

[studier]

You are joking right?
How many nano-seconds does that entail..hilarious.

No, I'm actually explaining what the Greek Perfect Paraphrastic tense means.

Hard to answer snark but I suppose it could be a moment but most likely longer and of course, for some, never.

Per your discussion with @Toknow, maybe the 'IF' clauses shed some light on this - at least IF we let them speak and we don't change them to fit our systematic theology.