Loss of salvation???
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Only if you don't have faith.
Hebrews 11:1
Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.
To have faith is to have certainty. If you are not certain of your salvation you ought to ask yourself, "whose word are you really believing in?"
"Did God really say?" We know where that comes from.
From the consequences of sin? No. Christ took that on and the Gospel is applied to believers saving them from death.
From the power of sin? Yes, we must walk by faith. Also known as sanctification.
From the presence of sin? No. That will be fulfilled in the resurrection.
If you believe you can lose your salvation?
It would mean you believe that salvation is a reality.
The initial salvation is God placing us in Christ.
Then, desiring that we should choose to walk in Christ.
Walk in Christ = walk in the Word of God.
You can lose direction and begin walking in the ways of the world.
When that happens we do not lose our salvation from the Lake of Fire.
But, we lose blessings that God wants to accompany our salvation on earth.
And, that is very helpful for our understanding? How?
I asked my question with the hopes you would declare what that tense gives the believer.
But, instead?
What did you offer?
"We are not good enough to know what it means."
Why play that game?
What's the matter?
Don't like teaching for free of charge?
Give answers that are needed that you have to share.
Freely you were given.....
I get that but at what future present does it stop being true? The present is the only moment we can live in therefore I read it now, it is true, I read it next week, it is true. From a practical perspective it remains true forever.
How do you know you have faith?Only if you don't have faith.
Hebrews 11:1
Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.
To have faith is to have certainty. If you are not certain of your salvation you ought to ask yourself, "whose word are you really believing in?"
"Did God really say?" We know where that comes from.
How do you know you won't fall away from it one day?
If you can say THEY NEVER HAD FAITH (those that fall away)
THEN
How do you know you are not in that camp?
This is not for me but....
it stops being true when YOU decide it's not true anymore.
Jesus said this:
Luke 14.28-30
28“For which one of you, when he wants to build a tower, does not first sit down and calculate the cost to see if he has enough to complete it?
29“Otherwise, when he has laid a foundation and is not able to finish, all who observe it begin to ridicule him,
30saying, ‘This man began to build and was not able to finish.’
Jesus is teaching that there's a cost to following Him.
Some on here believe that salvation is a free gift, which it is,
but that God wants nothing in return.
If God wants nothing in return,,,then Jesus' teaching is a false teaching.
There IS a cost to following Jesus.
One cost is to treat others with respect....
some on here do not do this...
are they following Jesus?
Jesus said that we are to pick up our cross daily and follow Him.
Some do not want a cross to pick up.
Some do not want to follow Him.
They just want to live the way they were living before.
Jesus wants us to follow Him.
Jesus wants us to obey Him.
What would you say that our input to our salvation should be?
You say we must walk by faith.
Does that include any active faith?
Does it include following Jesus?
What does it mean to follow Jesus?
You mentioned sanctification.
What is sanctification?
It's not me that believes we can forfeit salvation.
It's what the NT teaches and I've provided many passages.
Of course it's a reality.
Agreed.
Agreed.
So would you say that treating someone that does not agree with you
with ridicule is walking with God?
Are we supposed to have a transformed life is the Holy Spirit is dwelling in us?
What if there's no evidence of a transformed life?
Walking in the way of the world is NOT walking with Christ.
Galatians 5:16-21
16But I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not carry out the desire of the flesh.
17For the flesh sets its desire against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; for these are in opposition to one another, so that you may not do the things that you please.
18But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the Law.
19Now the deeds of the flesh are evident, which are: immorality, impurity, sensuality,
20idolatry, sorcery, enmities, strife, jealousy, outbursts of anger, disputes, dissensions, factions,
21envying, drunkenness, carousing, and things like these, of which I forewarn you, just as I have forewarned you, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.
Those that are walking in the world will NOT inherit the Kingdom of God.
No sir. We do not lose BLESSINGS.
Nowhere in the NT is this taught.
The dog went back to his vomit
The pig went back to wallowin in the mire.
They lost salvation...not gifts.
You mentioned returning to the world.
I don't know if you mean when a person SINS....
or when he returns to a LIFE OF SIN...which corresponds more to returning to the world.
That person cannot be saved...he will be as lost as before.
John said:
1 John 3:4-10
4Everyone who practices sin also practices lawlessness; and sin is lawlessness.
5You know that He appeared in order to take away sins; and in Him there is no sin.
6No one who abides in Him sins; no one who sins has seen Him or knows Him.
7Little children, make sure no one deceives you; the one who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous;
8the one who practices sin is of the devil; for the devil has sinned from the beginning. The Son of God appeared for this purpose, to destroy the works of the devil.
9No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
10By this the children of God and the children of the devil are obvious: anyone who does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor the one who does not love his brother.
Anyone who practices righteousness is of God. verse 10
The one who practices sin is of the devil. verse 8
John is not speaking about losing BLESSINGS....
John is writing his gospel and letters to SAVE OUR SOUL.
I'm explaining what a verb tense in Eph2:8-9 says and doesn't say and explaining why eternal security is not stated in the verb tense.
The verb tense in Eph2:8 doesn't say anything about it lasting or not lasting beyond that current statement Paul made. It only says it had lasted from when it began up to that current point in time.
Why must we assume what you say?
The verb tense itself is neutral; it doesn't support or deny eternal security. Since the grammar doesn't do the work, you’re shifting the argument away from it.
If the 'gift' refers to the entire process of being 'saved by grace through faith,' - which I think is the grammatical structure - why are you isolating only one prepositional phrase ('by grace') to force a sense of security into the verb? Why must we assume your conclusion is the only option, and more importantly, why must we consider part of the phrase and only ongoing grace apart from ongoing faith?
Because the word says what faith is. Do you not have certainty in the word of God? Are you not assured of His word? Have you no confidence?
If not, how do you stand against sin and evil in this world? Are you why the Church is so weak and powerless? How can you be ever ready to share the hope (confidence) in you if you have no confidence? How can you work out a salvation that you only "maybe" have if you get it all right?
I can't believe someone who has supposedly walked with the Lord as long as you have even thinks to ask such a question?
That's understandable.
@Roger316 when you told GeneZ "...The Greek text describes an event that begins in the past, but continues into the future." did you mean "forever" when you said "the future"?
I think you likely did mean that from something I read of yours earlier, which I responded to an haven't seen you reply in return.
IF you think the perfect paraphrastic is to be taken as a perfect - and you think the perfect tense means began in the past but continues forever, please provide a link to the resource that defines the perfect tense this way.
Thanks.
I know but the scripture in question Eph.2:8 is not talking about discipleship, it is talking about being regeneration. You did nothing to be made alive in Christ, that was all God's doing hence, saved by grace and not of works.
Funny how you only address the salvation that requires our participation and not the part that God works without your permission.
I've explained the meaning of the tense extensively and repeatedly GeneZ. You may be tuning into the "game" at a late point in the discussion and drawing a false conclusion.
What's helpful to our understanding is that the perfect tense does not give assurance to the believer beyond the point the perfect tense was used to speak of their then current state.
Eternal Security does not come from that verb.
Let's see what @Roger316 would like to agree or disagree with.