It teaches you can fall from grace. I can't find anywhere it teaches once made alive in Christ, you can die again.
Loss of salvation???
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It teaches you can fall from grace. I can't find anywhere it teaches once made alive in Christ, you can die again.
Yes — Ephesians 2:8 does use a perfect paraphrastic construction, and that is exactly why the verse carries the sense of both a completed salvation and an ongoing state of being saved.
The Construction in Ephesians 2:8
The key phrase is:
χάριτί ἐστε σεσῳσμένοι
“by grace you are ones who have been saved”
This is the classic perfect paraphrastic:
- ἐστε — present tense of εἰμί (“you are”)
- σεσῳσμένοι — perfect passive participle of σῴζω (“having been saved”)
Together they form a present perfect sense:
“you are (right now) in the condition of having been saved.”
What This Means Grammatically
The perfect participle points to:
- a completed act (God saved you)
- a continuing state (you remain in that saved condition)
- Completed salvation (the decisive act of God)
- Continuing salvation (the ongoing state and sustaining work of God)
— “I am saved, and I am being saved” — fits the Greek perfectly.
Why Paul Uses a Paraphrastic Here
Paul could have used a simple perfect verb (σεσῴσθε), but the paraphrastic makes the state more vivid:
- Not just “you have been saved,”
- but “you are in the condition of having been saved.”
This is especially important in Ephesians 2, where Paul contrasts:
- What you were — νεκροί, “dead” (2:1)
- What you now are — σεσῳσμένοι, “saved ones” (2:5, 2:8)
God has acted decisively, and you now live in the ongoing result of that action.
Theological Implication
This construction undercuts the idea that salvation is a fragile, reversible moment. Paul’s grammar insists:- God’s saving act is completed
- The believer’s saved condition is ongoing
- The sustaining grace is present (“by grace you are…”)
The perfect paraphrastic is doing heavy theological lifting.
Dis I pass?
The idea that the Ephesians are saved "forever" comes from the idea of inheritance. He says that they heard the gospel and believed, THEN they were given the Holy Spirit as an earnest of their inheritance. In other words, God has made a promise to them that he intends to keep.
Paul uses arrabōn in Ephesians 1 because it perfectly captures the force of his argument: God has already begun the inheritance He promised, and the Holy Spirit is the legally binding proof that God will finish what He started. In the ancient world, an arrabōn was not symbolic—it was a non‑refundable down payment that obligated the giver to complete the transaction. By calling the Spirit the arrabōn, Paul is saying that God has staked His own presence as the guarantee of the future He promised. This word lets Paul hold together two truths at once: believers already possess the first portion of the inheritance, and the full inheritance is absolutely certain because God Himself has made the initial payment. In one term, Paul communicates present experience, future certainty, and divine commitment.
It essentially says our boastable works are not part of it. It doesn't say we do nothing even though you deleted the "though faith" part of the gift package of 'saved by grace through faith' and desire the verb to say what it doesn't say.
Yes. It seems obvious to me. Do you have an argument to the contrary? I'd like to hear it.
My theology means nothing to you.
So why should keep continuing to bother?
For I realize....
Religious snobbery never cedes
Jesus told me I should just leave you be...... Matthew 15:14.
Like I said, no thanks. Not interested in talking with you. I find you rude and judgmental. You don't need to yell to be heard but you keep doing it, just like another poster recently.
Have a nice day.
When we're finished with Eph2:8 - which you brought up - then I'll move forward.
Thanks sawdust.
I needed that good laugh.
Why do you make statements about what Jesus taught
or, at least, what you THINK He taught....
that you are unable to support with scripture?
Why do you insist on posting about matters you do not understand as if you did?
Also, you lean toward calvinist theology and you are not even aware of it.
You have faith because you said YES to God OF YOUR OWN FREE WILL.
When you said YES to God OF YOUR OWN FREE WILL
you did not LOSE that free will.
At any point in time,,,
you could retract your decision and tell God that you no longer wish to worship Him.
YOU STILL HAVE YOUR FREE WILL.
Do you agree with this?
If you do NOT,,,I suggest you change your denomination.
The absence of free will is the backbone of calvinism.
Right along side total depravity.
I'm talking about regeneration as that is the context, being made alive in Christ. If you consider that is the total salvation package? I don't know what to say anymore.
You have good hearing sawdust.Like I said, no thanks. Not interested in talking with you. I find you rude and judgmental. You don't need to yell to be heard but you keep doing it, just like another poster recently.
Have a nice day.
You could hear me all the way from Italy !!
And could you post when I yelled at you?
Perhaps you mean when I use caps.
Do you know why normal people use caps?
You know...not those types that like to scream at others on facebook or other social media.
Please explain why caps are used.
LOL
Better to move on to something they THINK they undersand.
I better log off.
I'm getting giddy from all this nonsense.
(did I just give away my age?)
Well.. start giving ones with meaning and see if it produces anything better?
Jesus did not fail to win over the Pharisees because of weak exegesis.
Recognizing what the real problem is saves one from unneeded wear and tear.
Didn't you say you saw faith as a gift based on the structure of the verse? (I may be confusing you with someone else)
We have discussed this, I see faith as a production of the word and our believing as an act of our will. Our will does not produce faith, hence, faith is a gift and why it is assurance and confidence because it relies on the word, not ourselves. Faith exists apart from our believing. If however, we wish to have faith, then we must align our will with the Lord's will. He then works for our benefit by means of grace through faith.
Like I said, too quick to judge. You don't listen. I know what Calvinism teaches and I am not a Calvinist. Please go harass someone else.
The normal people on here I speak to don't use caps except in rare circumstances. You use them in virtually every post. It is considered yelling.
Yes — Ephesians 2:8 does use a perfect paraphrastic construction, and that is exactly why the verse carries the sense of both a completed salvation and an ongoing state of being saved.
The key phrase is:
χάριτί ἐστε σεσῳσμένοι
“by grace you are ones who have been saved”
This is the classic perfect paraphrastic:
- ἐστε — present tense of εἰμί (“you are”)
- σεσῳσμένοι — perfect passive participle of σῴζω (“having been saved”)
Together they form a present perfect sense:
“you are (right now) in the condition of having been saved.”
The perfect participle points to:
The present form of εἰμί points to:
- a completed act (God saved you)
So the grammar itself teaches:
- a continuing state (you remain in that saved condition)
- Completed salvation (the decisive act of God)
- Continuing salvation (the ongoing state and sustaining work of God)
— “I am saved, and I am being saved” — fits the Greek perfectly.
Paul could have used a simple perfect verb (σεσῴσθε), but the paraphrastic makes the state more vivid:
It emphasizes identity, not just event.
- Not just “you have been saved,”
- but “you are in the condition of having been saved.”
This is especially important in Ephesians 2, where Paul contrasts:
The paraphrastic fits Paul’s theme:
- What you were — νεκροί, “dead” (2:1)
- What you now are — σεσῳσμένοι, “saved ones” (2:5, 2:8)
God has acted decisively, and you now live in the ongoing result of that action.
This construction undercuts the idea that salvation is a fragile, reversible moment. Paul’s grammar insists:
- God’s saving act is completed
- The believer’s saved condition is ongoing
- The sustaining grace is present (“by grace you are…”)
The perfect paraphrastic is doing heavy theological lifting.
Dis I pass?
The idea that the Ephesians are saved "forever" comes from the idea of inheritance. He says that they heard the gospel and believed, THEN they were given the Holy Spirit as an earnest of their inheritance. In other words, God has made a promise to them that he intends to keep.
I have to go....
but
IF God made a promise that He intends to keep.....
what are all those teachings of Jesus that state that we can become lost again?
What did Peter mean when he stated that a dog could RETURN to his vomit....and a pig to wallowing in the mire?
YOU HAVE BEEN SAVED
YOU ARE SAVED
same difference.
We were saved at some point in the past.....
no idea there of FOREVER......
It remains to be seen if we ABIDE IN CHRIST....
IF WE ENDURE....
IF WE DID NOT BELIEVE IN VAIN.
We ARE SAVED BY FAITH.
If we lose OUR FAITH....
we will no longer be saved.
arrabon captures something by force?
Then why does PAUL, the same Paul...
state:
Romans 11:19-22
17But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive, were grafted in among them and became partaker with them of the rich root of the olive tree,
18do not be arrogant toward the branches; but if you are arrogant, remember that it is not you who supports the root, but the root supports you.
19You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.”
20Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear;
21for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either.
22Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off.
To you God's kindness
IF YOU CONTINUE in His kindness
otherwise you also will be cut off.
........
For Jesus to lose just one of all the Father gave Him?
Would mean that Jesus failed to do the Father's will.
I wonder what kind of excuse some may want to try when it is shown that they have been left without one.
We can not lose our salvation.
But, some sure can lose their mind.
.......
All those the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me
I will never drive away. For I have come down from heaven not to do my
will but to do the will of him who sent me. And this is the will of him who
sent me, that I shall lose none of all those he has given me, but raise them
up at the last day." John 6:37-39
For Jesus to lose just one of all the Father gave Him?
Would mean that Jesus failed to do the Father's will.
For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him
who sent me. And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of
all those he has given me, but raise them up at the last day."
I wonder what kind of excuse some may want to try when it is shown that they have been left without one.
For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him
who sent me. And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of
all those he has given me, but raise them up at the last day."
We can not lose our salvation.
But, some sure can lose their mind.
.......
If you know calvinist theology,
why do you keep saying that God does everything.
And you've never stated what SANCTIFICATION means.
No, not really. Which AI did you use?Dis I pass?
Here's Google AI beginning with my query:
Please start from scratch and explain the perfect paraphrastic tense as used in Eph2:8-9 as you summarize the tense from Greek references and quote the references. Specifically, does it speak of a "forever" or "lasting" state beyond the current point under discussion when used. I'm doing this for others to read. Please be precise and completely unbiased from any theology with your answers.
To understand Ephesians 2:8, we must look at the specific Greek construction:
("you are having been saved"). This is a Perfect Passive Periphrastic Participle.
In Greek grammar, a "periphrastic" construction uses a helping verb (in this case, este / "you are") alongside a participle (ses\bar{o}smenoi / "having been saved") to express a specific aspect of time and state.
1. The Nature of the Perfect Tense
The Greek Perfect tense is distinct from the English perfect. Its primary function is to describe a completed action in the past that has resulting effects in the present.
- The Focus: The emphasis is on the present state of the subject.
- The Duration: It describes a condition currently in effect at the time of speaking/writing.
2. Does it imply a "Forever" or "Lasting" State?
Precisely speaking, the Greek Perfect tense does not grammatically encode the future. It is a "snapshot" of the present reality resulting from the past. Whether that state continues forever or can be lost is a question of theology and context, not a function of the verb tense itself.
- Temporal Boundary: The Perfect tense guarantees the state up to and including the present moment. It does not, by its own power, project that state into the infinite future.
- Reversibility: The grammar is silent on whether the state is irrevocable. For example, in John 9:25, the man says, "I was blind, now I see" (using a similar logic of changed states). The fact that he "now sees" describes his current condition, but the grammar itself doesn't prove he could never go blind again; it only confirms his current sight is a result of a prior healing.
3. The Periphrastic Nuance
By using the periphrastic (este + ses\bar{o}smenoi), Paul emphasizes the existing condition of the believers.
- Translation: "You are [now] in a state of having been saved."
- Linguistic Function: It highlights the "finished" nature of the work (it is a gift already received) rather than a process currently in progress (the Present tense).
Summary for Your Readers
If we are being linguistically precise and unbiased by any theological system (Arminian or Calvinist):
- What the tense confirms: It confirms that at the moment Paul wrote this, the Ephesians were currently occupying a "saved" state because of a past event of grace.
- What the tense DOES NOT confirm: It does not provide a grammatical guarantee of "eternal security" (perpetuity) nor does it provide a grammatical warning of "apostasy" (reversibility).
- The Logical Conclusion: The verb
is a description of status, not a prophecy of duration. To argue that the state is "unconditional" or "forever," one must appeal to other verses or theological frameworks, as the Greek Perfect tense alone cannot carry that burden.