Loss of salvation???

[sawdust]

@sawdust

I'm going to attempt to summarize where I think we mainly disagree:

God established the destinations, but by telling us to 'choose life,' He makes us responsible for choosing our end. I don't have to create the destination to be the one who decides to arrive there.​

I'd like to get back to just focusing on Scripture, one at a time and in some context as necessary. I saw you quoted a verse. IF you want to discuss it, please tell me what it means to you and why.

The verse I quoted in full (there were others I mentioned) was Jn.6:39,

This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day.

To me it means exactly what it says. Whatever has been given to Christ will not be lost by Him and He will raise it up at the last day. To do anything less would be disobedient as it is the will of the Father for Christ.

 

[sawdust]

BUT
are you saying that GOD gives us the faith first so that we can come to believe?

No I'm not saying that.

 

[studier]

The verse I quoted in full (there were others I mentioned) was Jn.6:39,

This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day.

To me it means exactly what it says. Whatever has been given to Christ will not be lost by Him and He will raise it up at the last day. To do anything less would be disobedient as it is the will of the Father for Christ.

Yes, it can see why you say this, but I'd prefer to have some context explained to me beginning at least at John6:37-40.

 

[Toknow]

Look again. I know that Paul's line of argument can be difficult for some to follow, but if we stick with it and slow down, we can usually sort things out.

Romans 9;6-9

Bear in mind the question Paul is addressing at any given moment. He is attempting to answer an objection to his gospel. He begins his argument with a preface.

Romans 9:1-5

He acknowledges that God made promises to Israel (to his kinsmen of the flesh, 9:3) and that his gospel seems to contradict those promises. The objection goes something like this: "Paul, your gospel can't be true because if it were, then the promises of God have failed.

We sure do hate to post scripture.
so now, since I don't have the NT memorized,,,I have to go look for it and post it for you.

Romans 9:1-5
1I am telling the truth in Christ, I am not lying, my conscience testifies with me in the Holy Spirit,

2that I have great sorrow and unceasing grief in my heart.

3For I could wish that I myself were accursed, separated from Christ for the sake of my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh,
4who are Israelites, to whom belongs the adoption as sons, and the glory and the covenants and the giving of the Law and the temple service and the promises,

5whose are the fathers, and from whom is the Christ according to the flesh, who is over all, God blessed forever. Amen.

I really do like Romans 9:1-5
It would seem, to many, that Paul loves the Jews more than God does since God has chosen, based on nothing, to send most of them to hell. Many of them will be passed over by God.

By predestination we mean the eternal decree of God, by which he determined with himself whatever he wished to happen with regard to every man. All are not created on equal terms, but some are preordained to eternal life, others to eternal damnation; and, accordingly, as each has been created for one or other of these ends, we say that he has been predestinated to life or to death.

The Institutes of the Christian Religion
John Calvin
Book 3
Chapter 21
Paragraph 5

Paul begins his defense with a reminder about Abraham and his descendants. Apparently, Paul is looking at God's promise to Abraham and his seed. Genesis12:7. He notes that when God formalized his promise to Abraham, he restricted the promise to Isaac. Genesis 15:4 Paul refers to Isaac as the "child of promise. Romans 9:8 Abraham and his descendants will receive the eternal covenant. Genesis 17:6-8 God reaffirms his promise to Abraham and his seed. Genesis 22:17-18.

God's promise that all people of the earth will be blessed through Abraham.
Genesis 12:3
Agreed.

That was Paul's first point in his argument. God made a promise to Abraham and his seed -- but the promise was not made to all of Abraham's naturally born children. Isaac was not naturally born; he was born to Abraham and Sarah through a miracle, ratifying God's choice. Isaac is a child of promise.

Agreed.

To strengthen his case, Paul draws on another historical event to show that God continues to choose individuals from the population to bless. Romans 9:10-13. The point of contention is God's promise to give the land and the eternal covenant to Abraham and his descendants. And Paul is arguing that God's promise was exclusive to men of God's choosing, such as Isaac. Paul cites Jacob and Esau as another example where God chose between two of Abraham's naturally born sons, such that Jacob, not Esau inherited the land. This was to demonstrate that God's choice would stand. Romans 9:11

So, contrary to the word of his opponents, the fact that some believe the gospel while others do not is not evidence against the gospel that Paul preaches because, according to Biblical history, God decides who is a child of Abraham and who isn't a child of Abraham.

Children of Abraham are by faith.
If someone wanted to belong to the clan/tribe of Abraham, even Gentiles, they were allowed to as long as they were circumcized....the same reason that Christaians are to be baptized to belong to the New Covenant.

However, I don't believe Romans 9 is speaking about individual salvation.
Paul is clearly, by your own words above, addressing the fact that through the lineage of Abraham, God's promise would be brought to the world...the promise being God's salvation through the messiah.

Ishmael was not chosen for this task. I should say his lineage.
Esau was not chosen...the Edomites were not those that would bring the promise to the world.
Jacob,,,whose descendants are the Israelites,,,,would be chosen by God to bring the promise through his lineage.

The Israelites were chosen...
not individuals.
Romans 9 is addressing the nation of Israel and not individual salvation.

I don't know why you decided to interpret this passage through the lens of Molinism,

What did I state that sounds like Molinism?
Although I don't understand Molinism 100%,,,
I do know that I do not believe this is how God knows what will happen.
I may be ignorant here...but I just cannot fathom that God would work like this....
knowing all the senarios that can ever happen given any set of circumstances.

Although, I could be wrong about this....
We cannot know for sure HOW God knows...
we can only know that He DOES know everything that will happen.

1 of 3

 

[Toknow]

2 of 2

since Paul never raises the issue of God's foreknowledge in this passage. Those who appeal to Middle Knowledge to explain Romans 9 end up undercutting Paul’s argument.

I'm not appealing to middle knowledge.
I'm appealing to the fact that the reformed believe Romans 9 is about individual salvation
and every other denomination believes it's about corporate salvation.

Romans is not an easy book to understand fully, and Romans 9 to 11 should be in a separate letter.....
but it certainly does seem that Paul is speaking about a NATION and not about individual salvation.

If God’s choice of Jacob was based on foreseen decisions Jacob would freely make, then God is no longer choosing but merely reacting to creaturely choices. Yet Paul insists the opposite: before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad, God acted “so that His purpose according to election might stand.”

Do you deny that God can know who will be a better leader?

Romans 9:9-12
9For this is the word of promise: “AT THIS TIME I WILL COME, AND SARAH SHALL HAVE A SON.”

10And not only this, but there was Rebekah also, when she had conceived twins by one man, our father Isaac;

11for though the twins were not yet born and had not done anything good or bad, so that God’s purpose according to His choice would stand, not because of works but because of Him who calls,

12it was said to her, “THE OLDER WILL SERVE THE YOUNGER.”


Notice that in verse 11 it states that E and J had not done anything yet.
God did not choose the promise keeper by his works.
just like we are not picked by our works.
it seems, can we know for sure?, that God chose Jacob because, maybe God wanted to show that the son not meant to carry on the promise would be the better choice.

Of this we can be sure:
God did not choose one to damn the other.
It is NOT about individual salvation.

Paul’s whole point is that Jacob’s status as the child of promise rests on God’s sovereign initiative, not on Jacob’s future choices. If Middle Knowledge is driving the decision, then the decisive cause is Jacob, not God—and Paul’s argument collapses.

I DO believe that God chose Jacob.
If we agree that God chose Jacob as the promise keeper and not for personal salvation...then we agree.
However, God chose Jacob based on God's FOREKNOWLEDGE.
Foreknowledge is not causation.

And I see no need for Molinism/middle knowledge.

And you don't want to discuss philosophy....

Yes, but unlike you, I proved my point from scripture. Paul argues that God creates history, not just guides it, in Hebrews 1:2

God creates history...your verse....

Hebrews 1:2

1God, after He spoke long ago to the fathers in the prophets in many portions and in many ways, 2in these last days has spoken to us in His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the world.

The above states that Jesus is heir of all things...
He has authority over all things...
How does this mean that God created history?

I have authority over my children...
I do not cause every move they make.

I never claimed that man has ho free will.

Then why do you keep speaking about compatibilist free will?
So you are now stating that you believe in libertarian free will?

You know what an age is don't you?

I know how the translators of the NT translated the word AGES from the Greek.
They know more than I ever will.
The word that makes the most sense is: world/universe


Hebrews 1:2
New International Version
but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom also he made the universe.

New Living Translation
And now in these final days, he has spoken to us through his Son. God promised everything to the Son as an inheritance, and through the Son he created the universe.

English Standard Version
but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed the heir of all things, through whom also he created the world.

Berean Standard Bible
But in these last days He has spoken to us by His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, and through whom He made the universe.



2 of 3

 

[Toknow]

3 of 3


Berean Literal Bible
in these last days has spoken to us in His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, and through whom He made the ages,

King James Bible
Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

New King James Version
has in these last days spoken to us by His Son, whom He has appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the worlds;

New American Standard Bible
in these last days has spoken to us in His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, through whom He also made the world.

NASB 1995
in these last days has spoken to us in His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the world.

NASB 1977
in these last days has spoken to us in His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the world.

Legacy Standard Bible
in these last days spoke to us in His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the worlds,

Amplified Bible
has in these last days spoken [with finality] to us in [the person of One who is by His character and nature] His Son [namely Jesus], whom He appointed heir and lawful owner of all things, through whom also He created the universe [that is, the universe as a space-time-matter continuum].

Christian Standard Bible
In these last days, he has spoken to us by his Son. God has appointed him heir of all things and made the universe through him.

Holman Christian Standard Bible
In these last days, He has spoken to us by His Son. God has appointed Him heir of all things and made the universe through Him.

American Standard Version
hath at the end of these days spoken unto us in his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, through whom also he made the worlds;

Contemporary English Version
But now at last, God sent his Son to bring his message to us. God created the universe by his Son, and everything will someday belong to the Son.

English Revised Version
hath at the end of these days spoken unto us in his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, through whom also he made the worlds;

GOD'S WORD® Translation
In these last days he has spoken to us through his Son. God made his Son responsible for everything. His Son is the one through whom God made the universe.

Good News Translation
but in these last days he has spoken to us through his Son. He is the one through whom God created the universe, the one whom God has chosen to possess all things at the end.

International Standard Version
has in these last days spoken to us by a Son whom he appointed to be the heir of everything and through whom he also made the universe.

NET Bible
in these last days he has spoken to us in a son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he created the world.

New Heart English Bible
in these last days has spoken to us by a Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, through whom also he made the ages.

Webster's Bible Translation
Hath in these last days spoken to us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

Weymouth New Testament
has at the end of these days spoken to us through a Son, who is the pre-destined Lord of the universe, and through whom He made the Ages.
Majority Text Translations
Majority Standard Bible
But in these last days He has spoken to us by His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, and through whom He made the universe.

World English Bible
has at the end of these days spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, through whom also he made the worlds.
Literal Translations
Literal Standard Version
in these last days speaks to us in [His] Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, through whom He also made the ages;

Berean Literal Bible
in these last days has spoken to us in His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, and through whom He made the ages,

Young's Literal Translation
in these last days did speak to us in a Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, through whom also He did make the ages;

Smith's Literal Translation
At these last days spake to us in the Son, whom he set heir of all things, by whom also he made the times;
Catholic Translations
Douay-Rheims Bible
In these days hath spoken to us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the world.

Catholic Public Domain Version
lastly, in these days, he has spoken to us through the Son, whom he appointed as the heir of all things, and through whom he made the world.

New American Bible
in these last days, he spoke to us through a son, whom he made heir of all things and through whom he created the universe,

New Revised Standard Version
but in these last days he has spoken to us by a Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, through whom he also created the worlds.

 

[Toknow]

AI
———————————
Christians have historically held three main views about whether salvation can be lost and whether we can be certain of it. Each position appeals to specific passages of Scripture.

---

1. Eternal Security (We cannot lose salvation)​

Sometimes called “perseverance of the saints.”
This view teaches that if someone is truly saved, God will preserve them to the end.

Key idea​

Salvation is God’s work from beginning to end, so a truly regenerated person will not finally fall away.

Scriptures used​

Jesus promises security

• Gospel of John 10:28–29
  “I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand.”

The full chain of salvation

• Epistle to the Romans 8:30
  Those He justified, He also glorified.

God finishes what He begins

• Epistle to the Philippians 1:6
  He who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion.

Those who leave were never truly saved

• First Epistle of John 2:19
  They went out from us, but they were not really of us.

Conclusion of this view​

True believers persevere, and those who permanently abandon the faith were never truly regenerated.

---

2. Conditional Security (We can lose salvation)​

Often held in Arminian and Wesleyan traditions.
This view says believers must continue in faith and can later fall away.

Key idea​

Salvation is real, but it can be forfeited through unbelief or apostasy.

Scriptures used​

Warning about falling away

• Epistle to the Hebrews 6:4–6
  It is impossible to restore again to repentance those who have fallen away after tasting the heavenly gift.

Falling from grace

• Epistle to the Galatians 5:4
  You have fallen away from grace.

Branches removed from Christ

• Gospel of John 15:6
  If anyone does not remain in me, he is thrown away like a branch.

Need to endure

• Gospel of Matthew 24:13
  The one who endures to the end will be saved.

Conclusion of this view​

A believer must continue in faith. Apostasy can result in loss of salvation.

---

3. No Assurance (We cannot know for sure if we are saved)​

Historically common in parts of medieval Christianity and some sacramental traditions.

Key idea​

A person may be in a state of grace now but cannot have absolute certainty about final salvation.

Scriptures used​

Work out salvation with fear

• Epistle to the Philippians 2:12
  Work out your salvation with fear and trembling.

Paul disciplines himself

• First Epistle to the Corinthians 9:27
  I discipline my body… lest after preaching I myself should be disqualified.

Judgment according to works

• Epistle to the Romans 2:6–7
  God will repay each person according to what they have done.

Conclusion of this view​

A person may hope for salvation but cannot be certain until the final judgment.

---

Simple comparison​

View	Main Idea	Emphasis
Eternal Security	True believers cannot lose salvation	God preserves believers
Conditional Security	Believers can fall away	Must continue in faith
No Assurance	Final salvation uncertain	Ongoing faithfulness required

---

One interesting thing: the strongest biblical support for assurance often comes from passages like:

• First Epistle of John 5:13
  “I write these things to you… that you may know that you have eternal life.”

That verse is one reason many Protestants emphasize assurance of salvation.

There are a handful of passages that almost every debate about losing salvation eventually revolves around. These verses appear to pull in different directions, which is why Christians interpret them differently.

Here are five of the biggest battleground passages and why they matter.

---

1. Hebrews 6:4–6​

From Epistle to the Hebrews

“For it is impossible, in the case of those who have once been enlightened… and then have fallen away, to restore them again to repentance…”

Why it's debated​

The text describes people who:

• were enlightened
• tasted the heavenly gift
• shared in the Holy Spirit

Then it says they fall away.

Interpretations​

Conditional security view

• These are real believers who fall away and lose salvation.

Eternal security view

• These people experienced spiritual blessings but were never truly regenerated.

---

2. Hebrews 10:26–27​

Also in Epistle to the Hebrews

“If we go on sinning deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins.”

Why it's debated​

It sounds like someone who knows the truth can come under judgment.

Two interpretations

• Apostasy after genuine faith
• A warning to those exposed to the gospel but rejecting it

---

3. John 15:1–6 (The Vine and Branches)​

From Gospel of John

“Every branch in me that does not bear fruit he takes away…”
Later:

“If anyone does not remain in me he is thrown away like a branch and burned.”

Why it's debated​

The branches are described as being “in Christ.”

Interpretations:

Conditional security

• Real believers who stop abiding are cut off.

Eternal security

• These are professing believers connected outwardly but not truly saved.

---

4. Galatians 5:4​

From Epistle to the Galatians

“You who would be justified by the law… you have fallen away from grace.”

Why it's debated​

What does “fallen from grace” mean?

Interpretations:

Loss of salvation

• Turning to law removes someone from grace.

Doctrinal error

• They are abandoning the principle of grace, not necessarily losing salvation.

---

5. 1 John 2:19​

From First Epistle of John

“They went out from us, but they were not really of us.”

Why it's debated​

This verse is a key defense of eternal security.

Interpretation:

People who permanently leave the faith show they never truly belonged.

---

Why the debate exists​

The tension in Scripture looks like this:

Security passages​

• Gospel of John 10:28 — no one can snatch Christ’s sheep
• Epistle to the Romans 8:38–39 — nothing separates us from God's love

Warning passages​

• Epistle to the Hebrews 6 and 10
• Gospel of Matthew 24:13 — endure to the end

So theologians try to explain how both sets of verses fit together.

---

A simple way many theologians reconcile them​

A common Protestant summary:

• True believers persevere because God preserves them.
• Warning passages are real means God uses to keep believers faithful.

So the warnings function like guardrails on a mountain road — they keep you from going over the edge.

Your AI must be reformed!
Yes sir.
God puts those guardrails there so you don't go over.
Kind of like taking your free will away.

 

[Musicmaster]

I was going to respond to you MM.

But how does one respond to a person that does nothing but insult them?

I don't think they should.

The question that's relevant here is why do you persist in your campaign for exasperating many here who have experienced the merry-go-round of trying to get you to believe what scripture teaches in the clarity of the language inspired? Ask the right question, and you will get reasonable answers in the place of what you perceive as insults.

IF you ever want to have a serious conversation...
I'll still be here.

IF...the little word IF....
it sets a condition that must be met if anything is to happen.
Just like in the NT writings.

You'll have to input more context so that I understand to what you're referring.

MM

 

[Genez]

I was going to respond to you MM.

But how does one respond to a person that does nothing but insult them?

Confronting one with an error that they keep making is not an insult.

Jesus righteously insulted Peter!

From that time on Jesus began to explain to his disciples that ​

he must go to Jerusalem and suffer many things at the hands ​

of the elders, the chief priests and the teachers of the law, ​

and that he must be killed and on the third day be raised to life.​

​

Peter took him aside and began to rebuke him. ​

“Never, Lord!” he said. “This shall never happen to you!”​

​

Jesus turned and said to Peter, “Get behind me, Satan! You are a stumbling block to me; ​

you do not have in mind the concerns of God, but merely human concerns.”​

​

Matthew 16:21-23​

​

The Holy Spirit can be in an insult.

 

[Genez]

Yes. Please do.
PLease use scripture to show that we fall away from grace and NOT salvation.

Before anything else?
We need to get a grasp on what grace does, and is not doing.
Grace is supernatural power.

It is God's enabling power granted to a believer, to enable that believer to do a right thing, that the believer in his own energy has not have the power to do.

Three times I pleaded with the Lord to take it away from me. ​

But he said to me, “My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness.” ​

​

Therefore I will boast all the more gladly about my weaknesses, so that Christ’s power may ​

rest on me. That is why, for Christ’s sake, I delight in weaknesses, in insults, in hardships, ​

in persecutions, in difficulties. For when I am weak, then I am strong.​

​

2 Corinthians 12:8-10​

That is why we need to be saved by grace!
For in our natural strength?
We could not overcome what was preventing us from believing in Christ.

 

[Kroogz]

The verse I quoted in full (there were others I mentioned) was Jn.6:39,

This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day.

AND He has been given ALL things........The animals, the trees, the blades of grass, EVERYTHING.

We, humans tend to think everything revolves around us.

 

[Just_A__Follower]

Your AI must be reformed!
Yes sir.
God puts those guardrails there so you don't go over.
Kind of like taking your free will away.

It discussed three different views, not just one. Scroll down and you’ll find the one you like. I was simply posting the info that showed all 3 views have supportive scripture. Seems like an endless debate to me. Seems to me we will never have a definitive answer in this lifetime since everyone is working from the same scriptures but interpreting them differently.

 

[Kroogz]

​

Therefore I will boast all the more gladly about my weaknesses, so that Christ’s power may ​

rest on me. That is why, for Christ’s sake, I delight in weaknesses, in insults, in hardships, ​

in persecutions, in difficulties. For when I am weak, then I am strong.​

​

2 Corinthians 12:8-10​

That is why we need to be saved by grace!
For in our natural strength?
We could not overcome what was preventing us from believing in Christ.

This is something that needs to be seriously contemplated by believers. The deck is SOOOOOOOOOOOO stacked against us. Satan, demons, the cosmos, our sin nature, this whole world is against us. Little Ole' peons in a huge cosmic system.

Only the Grace of God can break through it.

 

[Genez]

AND He has been given ALL things........The animals, the trees, the blades of grass, EVERYTHING.

We, humans tend to think everything revolves around us.

Stick with the verse?. John 6:37.

All those the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me, I will never drive away.​

Jesus was not talking about animals, the trees, the blades of grass.

 

[Genez]

This is something that needs to be seriously contemplated by believers. The deck is SOOOOOOOOOOOO stacked against us. Satan, demons, the cosmos, our sin nature, this whole world is against us. Little Ole' peons in a huge cosmic system.

Only the Grace of God can break through it.

Not simply breaking through.

He who overcomes (is victorious), I will grant him to sit beside Me on My throne, ​

as I Myself overcame (was victorious) and sat down beside My Father on His throne. Revelation 3:21​

Grace will bring us to a place of having mastered over those things that those who fell from grace can not.

Not simply breaking through if we stayed with growing in grace and knowledge faithfully. Those who are transformed experientially are those who overcome by exploiting God'd grace freely given to the humble believers.

Many are called (saved)

But on a few of all the called/saved will be chosen by God to reign with the Son!
Only those who genuinely matured in Christ will be chosen for the task.
The rest could not be trusted with the power and authority God will give only those who put sound doctrine first in their life.

 

[Toknow]

The question that's relevant here is why do you persist in your campaign for exasperating many here who have experienced the merry-go-round of trying to get you to believe what scripture teaches in the clarity of the language inspired?

The question that is relevant here is why you persist in insulting persons that are merely posting.

And YOU should not be trying to teach ME what scripture teaches since I did not join this Forum in order to be taught by YOU.

Ask the right question, and you will get reasonable answers in the place of what you perceive as insults.

Go back and read your posts.

You'll have to input more context so that I understand to what you're referring.

MM

Every time I try to post to you,
I get back insults.

So no need for me to clarify anything to you.

 

[Toknow]

Confronting one with an error that they keep making is not an insult.

Jesus righteously insulted Peter!

From that time on Jesus began to explain to his disciples that ​

he must go to Jerusalem and suffer many things at the hands ​

of the elders, the chief priests and the teachers of the law, ​

and that he must be killed and on the third day be raised to life.​

​

Peter took him aside and began to rebuke him. ​

“Never, Lord!” he said. “This shall never happen to you!”​

​

Jesus turned and said to Peter, “Get behind me, Satan! You are a stumbling block to me; ​

you do not have in mind the concerns of God, but merely human concerns.”​

​

Matthew 16:21-23​

​

The Holy Spirit can be in an insult.

You do make rather arrogant remarks GeneZ.

It might just be YOU that is making many errors.

 

[Toknow]

Before anything else?
We need to get a grasp on what grace does, and is not doing.
Grace is supernatural power.

It is God's enabling power granted to a believer, to enable that believer to do a right thing, that the believer in his own energy has not have the power to do.

Three times I pleaded with the Lord to take it away from me. ​

But he said to me, “My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness.” ​

​

Therefore I will boast all the more gladly about my weaknesses, so that Christ’s power may ​

rest on me. That is why, for Christ’s sake, I delight in weaknesses, in insults, in hardships, ​

in persecutions, in difficulties. For when I am weak, then I am strong.​

​

2 Corinthians 12:8-10​

That is why we need to be saved by grace!
For in our natural strength?
We could not overcome what was preventing us from believing in Christ.

The above, unfortunately, does not reply to the question at hand.

YOU stated that we do not fall away from salvation but that we fall away from grace.

I asked you to post scripture to support this theory.

As ususal, you are unable to support your ideology with scripture.
The above just explans a quality of God's grace.

It does NOT support your idea that we fall away from grace instead of salvation.

The NT teaches that we fall away from salvation.

It's like this GeneZ:

Some guys on this thread like to discuss between themselves and encourage each other as to the incorrect
theolgy they have.

But they are UNABLE to support their theology to other members WITH SCRIPTURE.


You could try again.
Or you could retract your statement that we fall away from grace.


BTW,,,,if we do not have God's grace...
we also do not have salvation since God uses grace to save us.
Your theology is incorrect on two fronts.



Ephesians 2:8
8For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;

 

[Toknow]

It discussed three different views, not just one. Scroll down and you’ll find the one you like. I was simply posting the info that showed all 3 views have supportive scripture. Seems like an endless debate to me. Seems to me we will never have a definitive answer in this lifetime since everyone is working from the same scriptures but interpreting them differently.

It's not an endless debate.
We do have a definitive answer.

If we want to interpret scripture we can't carry around with us some idea that we received in some way known only to the individual person.

I'm still not certain which position you hold, but I've said this before and will repeat it here.
If we read through the NT and read some passages that sound as if we can never lose our salvation...
and then we come up against 1 or 2 or 3 or more that sound as if we could....

It would behoove us to STOP right there and makes sense of it
BECAUSE
scripture cannot be contradictory, it cannot cause conflict.
There can be no conflict in the NT or we could take our bibles and throw them away.

If we come across a verse that sounds as if the possibility exists that forfeiture of salvation actually exists,,,
then we have to go to the other ones and REALLY STUDY as to what they mean....then we would find that they don't mean what they SEEM to mean.

Take baptism.
Some will say that we are sealed.

Sealing refers to baptism.
We are baptized and sealed as belonging to God.
It is a seal of authority, of ownership.
This is why jesus commanded that we be sealed/baptized.

Now,,, YOU reconcile this with the rest of scripture and see what your final belief is.

Some questions.

1. Even though we're baptized...do we still retain our free will to walk away from God or is free will lost at baptism or at salvation?

2. Are there any verses that seem to say that a certain behavior is required? Does this conflict with the idea that we're saved forever no matter our behavior?

3. is it necessary to obey God? Did Jesus make obedience to His teachings a requirement?
So if we do not obey, but are "sealed" (as some understand it) do we retain our salvation?

The above requires some real studying...and not just coming to the NT with some conceived notion that is comfortable to us.
(I used to believe in OSAS but have had to change my thinking).

 

[studier]

Stick with the verse?. John 6:37.

All those the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me, I will never drive away.​

Jesus was not talking about animals, the trees, the blades of grass.

The verse was John6:39. I requested @sawdust take us through John6:37-40 at minimum.