Loss of salvation???

[Lamar]

Stick with the verse?. John 6:37.

All those the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me, I will never drive away.​

Jesus was not talking about animals, the trees, the blades of grass.

To better understand this verse, the antecedent of the pronoun "those" must be identified.

It seems that many here are labeling "those" as anyone who at some point in time had a sincere moment of belief in Jesus Christ.

If this is correct then it is impossible to lose salvation regardless of what the person does or believes after that moment.

 

[Musicmaster]

So, once again, the topic of this thread in relation to salvation and its alleged loss, there's been loads of reasonings offered that clearly are based upon personal effort for retention once acquired. The inevitable conclusion is that salvation, then, in the beliefs of some, is works-based, whether those of that mind are willing to admit it or not. The ONLY conclusion is that they believe it to be works-based, no matter what measure of denials applied.

The first line of problem with the claims for loss is that they rely so very heavily upon hypotheticals...in many cases extreme hypotheticals put forth as if they were mainstream while never admitting that those few who might fit the definitions of the hypotheticals are so rare that the posters most generally can't point to even one person they have ever encountered who fit their hypothetical narrative. That alone betrays their lack of honesty in relation to the assumed scope of the perceived problem.

Rather, then, to discuss the merits of salvation to the uttermost for those who truly believed in Paul's Gospel, they jump headlong into one or more of the plethora of rabbit hole hypotheticals at the exclusion of the mitigations for such individuals we should engage with them to restore them to the recognition and daily practice in that seal upon them by Holy Spirit, given as a gift not earned by any individual on the basis of any personal merit from personal effort nor works, and thus move forward accordingly in the restoration work of one to another.

Pettiness, on the other hand, is the instrument of Satan that continues to absorb the light that otherwise should illuminate enlightenment against the absurdities that characterize any and all merit(s) in the arena of our salvation. The confining truths that govern salvation leave no room for personal merit(s), effort and/or works, but the dizzying cacophony of whirlwind verses ripped from their contexts and from other dispensations, the truths of which do not apply to us today, it all keeps the massive confusions smacking up against all who dare enter the fray.

I salute the silent lurkers who read the posts, even selectively, and do their own study and prayer about the subject, and allow Holy Spirit to enlighten them...the very Spirit of whom is the ONLY Source for any true harmony that could and should define all of TRUE Christianity, the Western flavor of such is rife with socially/worldly/religiously engineered theologies and outright falsehoods of demonic origin.

The greatest of all praise, of course, belongs to Holy Spirit, who alone waits to be asked for all truth to replace what they thought was the truth.

Jesus Christ is indeed come in the flesh, but we no longer know Him after the flesh and should no longer desire to know Him after the flesh, but cultural traditions continue to cement the emotions of the gullible to knowing Him after the flesh through such things as Christmas and Easter pageantry, music, images, festivals and emotional entanglements. It was in the flesh the Law was retained as the foundation for works-based salvation rooted in a grounding of faith. Blessedly, we're no longer bound to such because of grace, which has no room whatsoever for works, with works now tied only to rewards.

Amen.

MM

 

[Lovette]

To better understand this verse, the antecedent of the pronoun "those" must be identified.

It seems that many here are labeling "those" as anyone who at some point in time had a sincere moment of belief in Jesus Christ.

If this is correct then it is impossible to lose salvation regardless of what the person does or believes after that moment.

The tricky part is that although salvation cannot be lost, reward can.

Now if anyone builds on this foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw, each one’s work will become clear; for the Day will declare it, because it will be revealed by fire; and the fire will test each one’s work, of what sort it is. If anyone’s work which he has built on it endures, he will receive a reward. If anyone’s work is burned, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire. (1 Cor. 3:12-15)

 

[Just_A__Follower]

Some more study with an open mind unclouded by previous conclusions may indeed provide resolution.

More study may lead people to different beliefs, as @Toknow mentioned about her own experience, but it’s unlikely that study alone will produce a definitive answer on this topic.

What matters most is staying grounded in Christ. For some, believing in a certain way may help them remain rooted, but ultimately, God honors those who seek Him. As Matthew 7:7–11 teaches, God gives good gifts to those who ask. Would He give salvation to someone who truly does not desire it? Perhaps someone who ends up rejecting God never truly desired Him to begin with, but in the end, what matters is their relationship with Him now.

A life lived in God’s presence on earth leads to life with Him in eternity. A life apart from Him leads to separation from Him. Focusing on Christ and living in Him is the ultimate reality, regardless of specific theological debates

 

[Mem]

The tricky part is that although salvation cannot be lost, reward can.

Now if anyone builds on this foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw, each one’s work will become clear; for the Day will declare it, because it will be revealed by fire; and the fire will test each one’s work, of what sort it is. If anyone’s work which he has built on it endures, he will receive a reward. If anyone’s work is burned, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire. (1 Cor. 3:12-15)

Interesting that you should bring this passage up, considering that an image of a wooden doorstep with a fire burning under it, woke me this very morning with a sense of alarm.

 

[studier]

More study may lead people to different beliefs, as @Toknow mentioned about her own experience, but it’s unlikely that study alone will produce a definitive answer on this topic.

What matters most is staying grounded in Christ.

These are not two different things.

In fact, I'd argue that they absolutely must exist together and that what @Toknow and others, including me, have gone through was remaining in Christ. reading and studying His Word in Spirit, and letting Him be the authority of His Word, instead of men who tell us it means something else.

IOW, stay grounded in Christ and study His Word and let's see where this goes...

 

[Just_A__Follower]

You mention the early church.
The early church did NOT believe in OSAS.
It taught that persons could fall away by both apostacy and a sinful life.

Martin Luther did not believe in OSAS.
He believed that we are saved by grace alone and this is why he wanted to reform the CC.
He believed in repentence and a changed life.
It's easy to find this information on the net.


From Gemini:
No, Martin Luther did not believe in the modern doctrine of "Once Saved, Always Saved" (OSAS) or eternal security. While he emphasized salvation by grace through faith alone, Luther taught that a believer could fall from faith and lose their salvation.
The Puritan Board +2

• Possibility of Falling Away: Lutherans believe the Bible warns against falling from faith, meaning salvation is not guaranteed regardless of future actions or belief (1 Cor. 10:12, 1 Tim. 1:19).
• Repentance: Luther emphasized daily repentance rather than a one-time, irrevocable event.
• Assurance vs. Security: While rejecting OSAS, Luther and Lutheranism still teach that a believer can have full, confident assurance of their salvation in Christ at any given moment.
  Reddit +4

Luther taught that God's grace is sufficient, but that faith must be maintained, and it is possible to abandon that trust.




OSAS was never taught in the church until Calvinism.
Calvinism teaches the perseverance of the saints.
About 200 years ago some theologians began to teach the idea of OSAS to mainline churches and this idea did catch on although most denominations do not adhere to this teaching to this day.
OSAS is a heretical (meaning non-orthodox) idea which is very recent.
Recent ideas are never in line with orthodox christianity.
This is also from Gemini....

• John Nelson Darby and the Plymouth Brethren (19th Century): Darby (1800–1882) played a crucial role in developing dispensationalism, which popularized a form of eternal security that became widespread in American evangelicalism and, later, Baptist theology.
• James Robinson Graves (19th Century): An influential figure in Southern Baptist history, Graves helped move this branch of Christianity toward a strong belief in the "security of the believer".

Key Distinction:
It is important to note that what Calvin taught was "Perseverance of the Saints"—the idea that God causes the true believer to endure to the end. The modern, popular form of "Once Saved, Always Saved" (sometimes called "Free Grace" theology) often diverges from Calvin by asserting that a person can have assurance of salvation even if they totally fall away from the faith, which differs from Calvin’s original emphasis on a persevering life.

AI
—————————
Timeline Summary:

View	Approx. Start	Key Figures
OSAS	1530s (Calvin) / 1700s–1800s (phrase)	John Calvin, Particular Baptists
Can Fall Away	Late 1500s–1610	Jacobus Arminius, Remonstrants
Can’t Truly Know	1600s	Puritans, John Owen

Modern Label	First-Century View Alignment
OSAS	Partially: God protects believers, but emphasis on remaining faithful
Can Fall Away	Partially: warnings suggest apostasy is possible
Can’t Truly Know	Partially: believers were encouraged to examine themselves, so assurance was measured, not absolute

 

[Cameron143]

AI
—————————
Timeline Summary:

View	Approx. Start	Key Figures
OSAS	1530s (Calvin) / 1700s–1800s (phrase)	John Calvin, Particular Baptists
Can Fall Away	Late 1500s–1610	Jacobus Arminius, Remonstrants
Can’t Truly Know	1600s	Puritans, John Owen

Modern Label	First-Century View Alignment
OSAS	Partially: God protects believers, but emphasis on remaining faithful
Can Fall Away	Partially: warnings suggest apostasy is possible
Can’t Truly Know	Partially: believers were encouraged to examine themselves, so assurance was measured, not absolute

Puritans believed in eternal security.

 

[Mem]

Interesting that you should bring this passage up, considering that an image of a wooden doorstep with a fire burning under it, woke me this very morning with a sense of alarm.

As I think on it more, given that I won't be able to do otherwise for a bit now. Perhaps I was jolted awake so that I might retain some consolation in the particularity that the step had yet to be singed. There's always hope for me, after all, isn't there?

 

[Kroogz]

Nice job.

"All [things]" and "every [thing]" has a lot of range and requires some thinking - maybe to also consider how the Greek uses the neuter gender.

And it can be argued that John 6:37 says the same.

King James Bible
All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

New King James Version
All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out.

New American Standard Bible
Everything that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I certainly will not cast out.

NASB 1995
“All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out.
"that"
ὃ
ho Accusative NEUTER

The Father has given The Lord Jesus Christ everything. And It will all come to Him........The one (person/whosoever will) who comes will not be cast out.

 

[Just_A__Follower]

Puritans believed in eternal security.

AI
——————————
Yes, most Puritans did believe in eternal security, but they expressed it differently from the modern “Once Saved, Always Saved” (OSAS) phrasing.

Their actual position​

Puritans followed Reformed / Calvinist theology, which taught the Perseverance of the Saints. This doctrine was formally stated in the Westminster Confession of Faith.

It teaches that:

• Those truly regenerated by God will persevere to the end.
• God preserves the elect so they cannot finally fall away.

But Puritans added an important emphasis​

Puritans strongly stressed self-examination and evidence of true faith. Because of this they often warned believers not to assume they were saved.

Many Puritan pastors taught that:

• A person may think they are saved but not actually be regenerated.
• True believers will show ongoing repentance, obedience, and perseverance.

For example, John Owen and Jonathan Edwards wrote extensively about testing whether faith was genuine.

 

[Lamar]

The tricky part is that although salvation cannot be lost, reward can.

Now if anyone builds on this foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw, each one’s work will become clear; for the Day will declare it, because it will be revealed by fire; and the fire will test each one’s work, of what sort it is. If anyone’s work which he has built on it endures, he will receive a reward. If anyone’s work is burned, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire. (1 Cor. 3:12-15)

The "tricky part" is knowing what is the antecedent of "those" in John 6:37.

If it is those who at some time during their life had a sincere moment of belief in Jesus Christ then yes salvation cannot be lost.

If it is not then salvation can be lost.

The works that will be tested with fire will not affect the status of a person's salvation regardless of who "those" is referring to.

 

[studier]

The meaning comes from the context. In this context, Jesus is speaking of "things" hidden from others but given to his disciples. Sound right?

As I read @Kroogz, he's showing how "all things" in John6:37 has a lot of range and is used elsewhere.

It's a good start. It begins a focus on "all things" (neuter) in the John6:37 verse. From there John6:37-40 might begin to make more sense.

You'd have to ask @Kroogz what it means there and why he posted it.

 

[Cameron143]

AI
——————————
Yes, most Puritans did believe in eternal security, but they expressed it differently from the modern “Once Saved, Always Saved” (OSAS) phrasing.

Their actual position​

Puritans followed Reformed / Calvinist theology, which taught the Perseverance of the Saints. This doctrine was formally stated in the Westminster Confession of Faith.

It teaches that:

• Those truly regenerated by God will persevere to the end.
• God preserves the elect so they cannot finally fall away.

But Puritans added an important emphasis​

Puritans strongly stressed self-examination and evidence of true faith. Because of this they often warned believers not to assume they were saved.

Many Puritan pastors taught that:

• A person may think they are saved but not actually be regenerated.
• True believers will show ongoing repentance, obedience, and perseverance.

For example, John Owen and Jonathan Edwards wrote extensively about testing whether faith was genuine.

I think you will find the same sentiment in the reformers as well.

The Puritans were given to great contemplation, but they weren't the initiators of making one's election sure.

 

[studier]

Yes, I agree. Context is King! One could argue that the entire chapter is the context because it depicts a crowd that seems to recognize that Jesus came from God, but their only concern is whether or not Jesus will continue to feed them bread. The question on the table seems to be "which one of you actually understands what I am doing?" The only ones who seem to understand are the ones whom the Father sent to Jesus. John 6:35-40

Who among them seems to realize that Jesus came to do the will of his Father, which is to raise them up on the last day? Some get it, some don't. The ones who get it, are the ones who were given to Jesus by the Father. John 6:44

I agree re: the chapter being the context.

Based on Jesus' last question to the twelve, I don't think anyone really got it all and at the end Jesus even left them with another intense question to think about. Peter's answer was one to think about, especially the first part John6:68.

Re: the John6:39 verse where this started with @sawdust, the close context of 6:37-40 has some important things to ask of the Text re: this loss-of-salvation topic of the thread.

 

[Lamar]

Puritans believed in eternal security.

Puritans most certainly believed that they were the chosen few. (Matthew 7:13-14 & 22:14)

And they were not shy about proclaiming that to others.

 

[studier]

So, once again, the topic of this thread in relation to salvation and its alleged loss, there's been loads of reasonings offered that clearly are based upon personal effort for retention once acquired. The inevitable conclusion is that salvation, then, in the beliefs of some, is works-based, whether those of that mind are willing to admit it or not. The ONLY conclusion is that they believe it to be works-based, no matter what measure of denials applied.

The alleged only conclusion per one who speaks about fallacious argumentation by others, but does not recognize his own.

 

[studier]

The tricky part is that although salvation cannot be lost, reward can

That's one theory.

 

[Just_A__Follower]

These are not two different things.

In fact, I'd argue that they absolutely must exist together and that what @Toknow and others, including me, have gone through was remaining in Christ. reading and studying His Word in Spirit, and letting Him be the authority of His Word, instead of men who tell us it means something else.

IOW, stay grounded in Christ and study His Word and let's see where this goes...

Yea my point was that a life of studying won’t produce a definitive answer and it really won’t matter that it doesn’t. One either loves Christ or they don’t.

 

[Cameron143]

Puritans most certainly believed that they were the chosen few. (Matthew 7:13-14 & 22:14)

And they were not shy about proclaiming that to others.

They were not shy about proclaiming the gospel either.