Loss of salvation???

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sawdust said:
He has been given all authority which is why He can guarantee our salvation. :)
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Yes! And He has. Amen and Amen. John 5:24, John 10:28, Rom 8:38-39, 1 Pet 1:23......and many more.

For me personally, in my studies and this debate, the whole idea/concept/truth of discipline, rewards, reign and blessings is lost.

It's just lose/forfeit salvation or not really saved for the majority........A WHOLE lot of truth is being dismissed.

Eph 1:14~~who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory.
 
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Kroogz said:
Where do you get "toward?"
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From the preposition "pros" used in the verses which most literally means "toward". It's a motion or orientation toward something. It can be interpreted in a sense of relationship - see John1:1-2 where it's typically translated as "with" - "...the Word was existing pros God" and '[He] was in the beginning pros God."
Kroogz said:
All things will come to Him. Everything is His. The lost, the plan, believers, everything on earth and in the cosmos.
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The neuter could very well be speaking of such things, but for this discussion I'm going to focus at the moment just on the Ekklesia for a few reasons:
  • The neuter pronouns can and do speak of groups - they can give us the corporate view.
  • pros as I said can be orientation and relationship - so my first approach would be to view this as a group of men rather than other things not really in a oriented relationship with Him in the sense of how His Ekklesia is.
Kroogz said:
Everything is His, the harsh reality is that some of it will be cast out. On judgement day, even the lost are His. The earth and the heaven are His............Some of it is cast out, some of it is saved and some of it is made new.
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Understood, but these verses speak of Him not casting out, so I'm remaining with just what is said
Kroogz said:
The believer, a new creation In Him, will never be cast out and has been raised with Him.
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If we're willing to look at both or all sides of the OSAS argument, which I am willing to do, even desiring to do, then you're potentially adding theology to the verse - in fact a non-OSAS view says you're doing just that:
  • Jesus has switched from the group to the individuals
    • From the group He will not lose
    • The individual men He will not cast out
    • OSAS will join these 2 clauses:
      • The group will be an established group
      • Individuals in the group will not be cast out and will not be lost from being pros Christ
    • Non-OSAS will see them as distinct clauses using different verbs for different purposes:
      • The group will be an established group
      • Individuals in the group will not be cast out but may have walked away from being pros Christ
Honestly, this is one of those issues like @Toknow told us about re: the "IF" clauses causing her to reassess what she thought about OSAS. These verses contain similar considerations.

Objectively, we can read OSAS here or non-OSAS here. In my current opinion non-OSAS is a bit stronger just based upon the structure of the teaching in these verses and the wording in them even just to the point described above.

Then we deal with a few other things such as in John6:40 the normal suspects like believing being one moment in time or continuing (present tense), whether or not obedience and works are part of genuine Faith, what exactly eternal life is, why the subjunctive verb "may have" eternal life, etc.

My point so far since @Genez asked me what the tense in Eph2:8 'saved' is, is really simple - just as the perfect tense there did not have OSAS built into it, nor do I see it built in here in these John6 verses.

Any more discussion for me in these verses has to be directly about them and the actual language in them without adding or subtracting from various theologies.

cc: @sawdust awake in AU.
 
sawdust said:
He has been given all authority which is why He can guarantee our salvation. :)
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No debate with that no matter what others may allege.

Just back to where we started: do we choose to believe & do we choose to continue to believe?
 
Kroogz said:
Where do you get "toward?"

All things will come to Him. Everything is His. The lost, the plan, believers, everything on earth and in the cosmos.

Everything is His, the harsh reality is that some of it will be cast out. On judgement day, even the lost are His. The earth and the heaven are His............Some of it is cast out, some of it is saved and some of it is made new.

The believer, a new creation In Him, will never be cast out and has been raised with Him.
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"Everything" makes no sense. Jesus is talking about people, not things.
 
studier said:
From the preposition "pros" used in the verses which most literally means "toward". It's a motion or orientation toward something. It can be interpreted in a sense of relationship - see John1:1-2 where it's typically translated as "with" - "...the Word was existing pros God" and '[He] was in the beginning pros God."
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From the Context, "to" works the best.

All that the Father "gives"..........Present Indicative active.......It has all been Given. Done deal.
 
Roger316 said:
"Everything" makes no sense. Jesus is talking about people, not things.
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Colossians 1:16 says, “For in him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through him and for him.”
 
Roger316 said:
Aren't thrones, powers, rulers, and authorities people?
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Yes Sir.....And The invisible.....Angels(fallen) and their cosmic(worldly) system.

Colossians 1:16 says, “For in him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through him and for him.”

John 6:37~~All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out.

The "all things" are the "part a " of the verse. The "people" or whosoever will come is the "part b" of the verse.

IMO, it covers all things. The predetermined plan of salvation, Grace, mercy and judgment. Including the new earth and new heavens and everything in them........The creation. Animals,trees , every blade of grass and right down to the very dust and atoms.......He has been given ALL authority.
 
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Toknow said:
The above, unfortunately, does not reply to the question at hand.

YOU stated that we do not fall away from salvation but that we fall away from grace.

I asked you to post scripture to support this theory.

As ususal, you are unable to support your ideology with scripture.
The above just explans a quality of God's grace.

It does NOT support your idea that we fall away from grace instead of salvation.

The NT teaches that we fall away from salvation.

It's like this GeneZ:

Some guys on this thread like to discuss between themselves and encourage each other as to the incorrect
theolgy they have.

But they are UNABLE to support their theology to other members WITH SCRIPTURE.


You could try again.
Or you could retract your statement that we fall away from grace.


BTW,,,,if we do not have God's grace...
we also do not have salvation since God uses grace to save us.
Your theology is incorrect on two fronts.



Ephesians 2:8
8For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;
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As usual... you will deflect and negate anything that stands in your way.

Why should I bother?
 
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Mem said:
I recently heard a pastor recently make the interesting observation of Jesus saying this to Peter shortly after having commended Peter at Matthew 16:17.
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That is true.
When Jesus rebukes it is not a personal insult.
It is a strong presentation of what is needed for a correction.
To jar someone out of their stubborn dullness.

Do not rebuke mockers or they will hate you; ​
rebuke the wise and they will love you." ​
​
Proverbs 9:8​

One man's correction is seen as another man's insulting, arrogance-buster.
 
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Lamar said:
To better understand this verse, the antecedent of the pronoun "those" must be identified.

It seems that many here are labeling "those" as anyone who at some point in time had a sincere moment of belief in Jesus Christ.

If this is correct then it is impossible to lose salvation regardless of what the person does or believes after that moment.
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I am living proof.
I got saved reading a tract someone handed to me.
It took me ten years after believing to even begin to read the Bible.

But, right after I believed?
I was shown the Bible college I was to attend ten years later...
And, the Bible college was not there when I was given the dream.

God's plan is too big for small minds.
 
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studier said:
No debate with that no matter what others may allege.

Just back to where we started: do we choose to believe & do we choose to continue to believe?
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We must choose to accept that we are finding ourselves believing.
 
studier said:
No debate with that no matter what others may allege.

Just back to where we started: do we choose to believe & do we choose to continue to believe?
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Yes and yes.

And it comes back to @sawdust million dollar question.
sawdust said:
Does our believing save us or are we saved because God saves believers?

Acts 16:31.....The moment we believe we are saved.

Some believers will advance in His plan and some will not.......But all believers are saved.
 
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Lamar said:
The "tricky part" is knowing what is the antecedent of "those" in John 6:37.

If it is those who at some time during their life had a sincere moment of belief in Jesus Christ then yes salvation cannot be lost.

If it is not then salvation can be lost.

The works that will be tested with fire will not affect the status of a person's salvation regardless of who "those" is referring to.
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Salvation cannot be lost. If it appears to be "lost", then such a person is either never saved, or his work is unworthy, what's lost is his reward in heaven. You can't lose something you've never had in the first place.

“Assuredly, I say to you, whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven. (Matt. 18:18)
 
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