Loss of salvation???

[Toknow]

I can give scriptural support.... and a suggestion for hours of excellent lessons you will never listen to.
For, after a while?
You become not too hard to figure out.

You don't seem to understand how Forums function.

YOU state what YOU believe to be truth
I state what I believe to be truth.

YOU must support your truth with scripture or it's just your OPINION.
I must do the same.

Do you really think that you're going to change my mind or the mind of anyone on this forum?

I'm not here to LISTEN TO YOUR LESSONS....
Just like YOU are not here to listen to MY LESSONS...

We're here to discuss theology.
But, apparently, your here to change the minds of persons.
Good luck.

 

[Toknow]

Those words spoken by rabbi Jesus, was spoken to Jews.
Jews, according to what Jews could know before the Church age began.

The word saved, or sozo in the Greek, can speak of personal salvation, or of being delivered, rescued, protected.

"Those who endure to the end will be 'delivered" speaks to those who will learn the Word and and endure the seven year Tribulation.
They will be delivered into the new heaven and new earth of the Millennium.
That will apply to Jews that rabbi Jesus was speaking to (in its historical context) .

I am not the only one who sees this. https://lindasbiblestudy.wordpress.com/tag/matthew-2413/

We really have to learn the Word of God in detail if we are to avoid keep making the same humanly confident assumptions that are not truth.

Enduring to the end means just that - no matter which verse we want to use.
If you wish to understand that it means enduring till the end of the tribulation...fine.


However,
THIS verse cannot be misunderstood.


Hebrews 3:14
14For we have come to share in Christ, if indeed we hold our original confidence firm to the end.
It plainly states that we must hold OUR ORIGINAL CONFIDENCE firm to the end.
No tribulation necessary.

Verse 12 confirms the above:


Hebrews 3:12
12Take care, brethren, that there not be in any one of you an evil, unbelieving heart that falls away from the living God.


It is possible to fall away ... the conditions are given.....
and this is why we're told to encourage each other daily so that we will not get a hardened heart through sin.


verse 13
13But encourage one another day after day, as long as it is still called “Today,” so that none of you will be hardened by the deceitfulness of sin.

 

[Genez]

I wasn’t quoting Matthew 24:13 or making a point about the tribulation. My comment was simply about legitimate questions regarding salvation and perseverance.

I was answering you.
The notion of enduring to the end for salvation has its roots in a misunderstanding of Matthew 24:13.

 

[Toknow]

I wasn’t arguing for or against OSAS. I was simply using AI as a quick way to show the issues in your post. You would have had the same reaction whether I used AI or said them on my own.

You’ve dismissed a few questions that I’ve seen. This was your post:

Will check to see what questions I've dismissed.

AI listed them this way:

• What counts as losing faith?
• Is a single sin enough?
• Is prolonged rebellion required?

I’ve personally asked you if we must do works then how many. I’ve also asked what sins cause you to lose salvation.

First, the answers to AI's points:
APOSTACY
A SINFUL LIFE which is disobedience to God

NO unless it's serious (murder) or unless it is ongoing for a long time...see reply one.


YES but don't ask how long...it's one of those silly questions


Now, I'll reply to YOUR questions.
HOW MANY WORKS?
No one ever asks what a work is?
What do YOU think a work is?? (not dodging)

Man sins every day.
We do our best.
We ask God to forgive us. (some don't even think we're supposed to ask for forgiveness)
There's a difference between sining and living in sin.
John explains this in 1 John chapters 1 and 2 and 1 John 3:9 (can't post it- getting too late and must leave).

When you get on a highway, it’s not wrong to want to know the speed limit so you don’t get a ticket. A baseball player wants to know how many strikes they get before they’re out. Clear standards matter.

Sure. But Jesus told us what to do.
This is not a baseball game with set rules.
Jesus said to
LOVE GOD
LOVE YOUR NIEGHBOR AS YOURSELF

Are we doing this?
What does it entail?
Maybe to you it means something different than it does to me.
Maybe the Holy Spirit is calling you to do something different than I do.
no set rules.
We do have the 10C


What do you want to hear?
you want to hear that if we sin 6 times in one day we're lost?
It's not possible.
We'd need to keep a tally of our sins and concentrate on them all day long.

This is why I say it's a silly question.

The same type of questions can be asked of the OSAS position as well. For example, if someone claims to be saved but later becomes a serial killer, are they still saved? These questions simply test the consistency of the doctrine.

But you see...you gave a pefect example of why OSAS cannot be true.
So you DO understand.
C Stanly said we could murder someone and still be saved.
This is preposterous.
The Holy Spirit cannot live with sin.

Here’s a couple scenarios:

1)One person believes in OSAS and if they fall away, well then they never truly believed to begin with.

2)Another person believes they can fall away and lose their salvation.

Yes. The outcome is the same.
The problem is in teaching our faith.
We must teach what the NT teaches.
If someone never was really Christian...they're lost anyway.

We have to ASSUME that the person is saved.
jesus said they are saved...Luke 8:13, Luke 15:24 THEN fell away.

The person that believes he can fall away is safer....because falling away is something he must do of his
own free will. You don't just fall away as you're getting out of bed one morning.
You must consciously decide that you no longer can follow God...just like you decide that you DO want to follow God.


The person that believes they can fall away and not lose their salvation is in true peril.
Since God hates sin and disobedience...wouldn't you agree that this type of believer is in peril ?

3) And another isn’t sure that they are saved.

This is terrible and something we never discuss on these Forums.
I have written to some and I always bring up the Prodigal Son.
Also, if a person is worried about not being saved...
it most probably means that they are.

Now if any of the people endure to the end then they are saved. If any don’t endure to the end they are not saved. Same outcome no matter what one believes now. Now if a person believes they can live how they want then they are delusional and don’t love God anyways.

I think that's very sound reasoning !

As for Charles Stanley, I’ve never listened to or read anything of his. But do you believe if a Christian murders someone, they are not able to repent?

Sure. God will forgive any sin. If the person is sorry.
But he was saying that they ALREADY REPENTED once !
And once is all that is necessary.

This is damnable doctrine and those that teach this will answer to God.

 

[Toknow]

I was answering you.
The notion of enduring to the end for salvation has its roots in a misunderstanding of Matthew 24:13.

I sure hope you saw my post 8762.

There's no doubt that Hebrews is stating that we must endure to the end.

NO TRIBULATION
NO MATTHEW 24

 

[Genez]

You don't seem to understand how Forums function.

YOU state what YOU believe to be truth
I state what I believe to be truth.

YOU must support your truth with scripture or it's just your OPINION.
I must do the same.

Do you really think that you're going to change my mind or the mind of anyone on this forum?

I'm not here to LISTEN TO YOUR LESSONS....
Just like YOU are not here to listen to MY LESSONS...

We're here to discuss theology.
But, apparently, your here to change the minds of persons.
Good luck.

YES.... Good luck.

I do answer questions.
But not with all....

I just do not like how you fail to reason,
and always push what you assume.

So be it.

 

[Luke1813]

Can a once truly saved believer backslide too much and lose the gift of salvation? If so do they need to repent and ask for forgiveness through Christ again? Thoughts are welcome and scripture too!

Without reading the thread, I have no doubt that you have received some pretty interesting responses to your question.

My response won't be all that interesting, or even well thought out. Because I've already settled this debate with myself long ago, but not until after I lived out the scenario which you described.

During the many years that I ran from my Father, there were times when I doubted His everlasting love for me. There was even a period of about six months when He completely removed any perceivable sense of His presence from my life. I'm not a fearful guy generally, but that was a terrifying experience to say the least.

When my time of trial and temptation finally passed, when whatever work He was doing in me had been completed, Jesus brought me back into the fold.

I'm a pretty good Dad, I love my children. I can imagine a few evil deeds that would make it very difficult for me to like my children, clearly I don't believe any child of mine would be capable of such things, but even if they were, my love for them is eternal. We call Him Our Father, He calls us His children.

Some of us dedicate a great deal of time fighting on behalf of the unborn, my granddaughter is very involved in the pro life movement, its a noble endeavor. We fight because the scriptures and the Spirit of God within us tell us that abortion is a great evil.
The fact that God hates abortion might be the one and only issue most Christians could agree upon. And yet some of those same Christians will argue endlessly, with absolute certainty, that Our Loving Father, is Himself in the abortion business.

Strange days indeed

 

[Toknow]

YES.... Good luck.

I do answer questions.
But not with all....

I just do not like how you fail to reason,
and always push what you assume.

So be it.

I don't ASSUME anything Genez.

I use scripture when I post.

Posting without scripture is just plain OPINION.

I find that those that believe in easy believism, cheap grace,
the idea that God doesn't really have to be obeyed...are the ones
that have a problem with either me or my posts.
I always do wonder why.
Maybe obeying God is to difficult?

They do tend to get into ad hominums instead of scripture but that speaks
to THEIR knowledge and has nothing to do with what I post.

You can not post to any person you do not care to post to....
but to say that it's because you don't like how they reason...
is rather dishonest.

The truth is that you don't like the doctrines they espouse.

 

[Just_A__Follower]

Will check to see what questions I've dismissed.


First, the answers to AI's points:
APOSTACY
A SINFUL LIFE which is disobedience to God

NO unless it's serious (murder) or unless it is ongoing for a long time...see reply one.


YES but don't ask how long...it's one of those silly questions


Now, I'll reply to YOUR questions.
HOW MANY WORKS?
No one ever asks what a work is?
What do YOU think a work is?? (not dodging)

Great question and since you’re the one that says it’s a requirement, I’ll let you answer it. What is a work?

Man sins every day.
We do our best.
We ask God to forgive us. (some don't even think we're supposed to ask for forgiveness)
There's a difference between sining and living in sin.
John explains this in 1 John chapters 1 and 2 and 1 John 3:9 (can't post it- getting too late and must leave).


Sure. But Jesus told us what to do.
This is not a baseball game with set rules.
Jesus said to
LOVE GOD
LOVE YOUR NIEGHBOR AS YOURSELF

Are we doing this?
What does it entail?
Maybe to you it means something different than it does to me.
Maybe the Holy Spirit is calling you to do something different than I do.
no set rules.
We do have the 10C

You’re the one that called it His rule book.

What do you want to hear?
you want to hear that if we sin 6 times in one day we're lost?
It's not possible.
We'd need to keep a tally of our sins and concentrate on them all day long.

This is why I say it's a silly question.

I find it to be a reasonable question. Again, stating that it’s a requirement without describing the requirement leaves people to guess what the requirement is.

But you see...you gave a pefect example of why OSAS cannot be true.
So you DO understand.
C Stanly said we could murder someone and still be saved.
This is preposterous.
The Holy Spirit cannot live with sin.

Yes. The outcome is the same.
The problem is in teaching our faith.
We must teach what the NT teaches.
If someone never was really Christian...they're lost anyway.

We have to ASSUME that the person is saved.
jesus said they are saved...Luke 8:13, Luke 15:24 THEN fell away.

The person that believes he can fall away is safer....because falling away is something he must do of his
own free will. You don't just fall away as you're getting out of bed one morning.
You must consciously decide that you no longer can follow God...just like you decide that you DO want to follow God.


The person that believes they can fall away and not lose their salvation is in true peril.
Since God hates sin and disobedience...wouldn't you agree that this type of believer is in peril ?

Oh I agree, but does OSAS teach that? Do they not teach that if you fall away you weren’t saved to begin with? In other words the exact same outcome as some who believes they can fall away and lose their salvation. Both have the same outcome.

This is terrible and something we never discuss on these Forums.
I have written to some and I always bring up the Prodigal Son.
Also, if a person is worried about not being saved...
it most probably means that they are.

Not sure why it’s terrible especially if it means they are, but ok.

I think that's very sound reasoning !

Sure. God will forgive any sin. If the person is sorry.
But he was saying that they ALREADY REPENTED once !
And once is all that is necessary.

This is damnable doctrine and those that teach this will answer to God.

So have you never committed a sin, repented, and then ended up committing the same sin again down the road? Or is it that one can repent of lying or stealing multiple times but only gets one chance to repent of murder?

 

[Genez]

I use scripture when I post.

Sure....
It is what you habitually do with the Scripture that is the problem.
I have posted Scripture, and then decided it does no good after you get done with it.

I think it might be best for you to put me on Ignore?
Or, should I go first?

 

[Roger316]

The other member mentioned PERSONAL EFFORT re KEEPING SAVED.
He mentioned WORKS SALVATION.

You know...WORKS has become a filthy word in theology.
May the good Lord forbid that we do good works for Him !!

As to falling away being a free will choice.

Yes. I decided to believe and trust.
I can decide to STOP believing and trusting.

Unless, of course, we lose our free will once we become saved.

Isn't deciding to believe a work?

 

[Roger316]

Where did I say a believer MUST not fall away?

Could you give the number of that post please.

I'm simply trying to understand your position better.

 

[Roger316]

The other member mentioned PERSONAL EFFORT re KEEPING SAVED.
He mentioned WORKS SALVATION.

You know...WORKS has become a filthy word in theology.
May the good Lord forbid that we do good works for Him !!

As to falling away being a free will choice.

Yes. I decided to believe and trust.
I can decide to STOP believing and trusting.

Unless, of course, we lose our free will once we become saved.

Let me explain it in terms you might understand. You seem to be teaching what I would call a "transactional" salvation. A man gives God faith and trust in exchange for salvation. Whereas the Bible actually teaches a "relational" salvation. A man is born again or born from above, and he has a relationship with God.

You seem to believe that a man can lose his salvation because the salvation event occurs the moment he confesses Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior. But in order to remain saved, the man must continue to believe in Jesus Christ his whole life after that. (Correct me where I misrepresent your position. My intention is not to create a strawman.) God wants faith, the man wants salvation, and the two trade. The event is transitional.

Isn't that right? You give God something he wants so you get what you want?

 

[Toknow]

Sure....
It is what you habitually do with the Scripture that is the problem.
I have posted Scripture, and then decided it does no good after you get done with it.

I think it might be best for you to put me on Ignore?
Or, should I go first?

So.....
No reply to my post to you no. 8762.

This says a lot.


No matter , those for whom I post have read the post even if YOU are unable to give
it a reply.

I just posted SCRIPTURE...
I did nothing with it.
No need for paragraphs to explain it.

It's just simply what the NT teaches.
We must endure to the end.

As to this ingnore idea:
I'm a mature person...I don't need to place members on ignore because I don't agree with them.

You can behave however you see fit to.
If you'd rather put me on ignore because you cannot defend your position...
that's fine with me.

 

[Toknow]

Great question and since you’re the one that says it’s a requirement, I’ll let you answer it. What is a work?

No sir.
I spend a lot of time replying to YOUR questions.

Now let's see if you could reply to JUST ONE of mine.
It seems easy enough for anyone who understands grace.

You’re the one that called it His rule book.

Please POST where I called anything A RULE BOOK.

Thanks.

I find it to be a reasonable question. Again, stating that it’s a requirement without describing the requirement leaves people to guess what the requirement is.

Well, then, Just, I guess Christianity is just too difficult of a religion for you.
Like I said,,,you might do better with The Law.
It tells you EXACTLY what you are to do to please God.
613 requirements.
Give it a go.

Oh I agree, but does OSAS teach that? Do they not teach that if you fall away you weren’t saved to begin with?

No. The NEVER WERE SAVED part of those that fall away is the EXCUSE that the OSAS give because it's APPARENT in NT writings that some DO in fact fall away. It's a way of theirs to explain this falling away because they cannot accept the truth.

OSAS teaches that once a person "accepts" Jesus (whatever that means to them) NOTHING they do can ever cause them to lose their salvation.

THIS is what OSAS teaches.

So then they read that some DO fall away...
the excuse? They were never saved to begin with.

Which means that NO ONE can be sure of their salvation!
Pretty lame excuse, isn't it.

In other words the exact same outcome as some who believes they can fall away and lose their salvation. Both have the same outcome.

Correct.
But, it seems to me, that we have to post correct NT teaching....
no matter whether we like it or not.

Correct teaching is that A BELIEVER can fall away.
JESUS taught this, and Paul and all the writers.

Not sure why it’s terrible especially if it means they are, but ok.

Because Just,,,,it's terrible for a person not to be sure of their salvation.
It's terrible not to know if God is pleased with you or not.
It's terrible not to know where you're going to spend eternity.
etc.

Jesus said He came to bring a life more abundant.
How do we have a life more abundant if a person is not even sure of his salvation??

So have you never committed a sin, repented, and then ended up committing the same sin again down the road? Or is it that one can repent of lying or stealing multiple times but only gets one chance to repent of murder?

LOL
I don't know anyone that is perfect.

However, if a person murders one human...
then repents...

then murders another human...

I'd have some serious question as to his sincerity.

God cannot be mocked.

 

[Toknow]

Isn't deciding to believe a work?

Some think everything is a work.

If you could show me how having faith/believing is a work, it would be helpful.

Paul pitted faith/believing against works.

So faith is NOT a work, as taught by the NT

Ephesians 2:8 FAITH IS A GIFT.

 

[Toknow]

I'm simply trying to understand your position better.

The only MUST i ever use is this must:

A believer MUST obey God.

He is required to.

No other musts in the Chrsitian faith.

 

[Toknow]

Let me explain it in terms you might understand.

Roger,
let me explain something YOU will understand:

You believe in monergism
I believe in synergism

You seem to be teaching what I would call a "transactional" salvation. A man gives God faith and trust in exchange for salvation. Whereas the Bible actually teaches a "relational" salvation. A man is born again or born from above, and he has a relationship with God.

I don't see either word in the bible.

What I see is this:

In order to be saved we:

1. believe in God
2. obey God


You can give that whatever term is being used these days.

Transaction is a legal term.
Justification is a legal term.

You've brought up an interesting point.

Havng read also the OT....I'd say we have a relational salvation. (beginning with A and E)
We believe in God...
we become children of God.


1 John 3:1
1See how great a love the Father has bestowed on us, that we would be called children of God; and such we are. For this reason the world does not know us, because it did not know Him.

You seem to believe that a man can lose his salvation because the salvation event occurs the moment he confesses Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior. But in order to remain saved, the man must continue to believe in Jesus Christ his whole life after that.

Correct.
And BELIEVE means someething specific in Greek...I'm sure you know this.
The BELIEVE part must be active, just as the Greek teaches.

(Correct me where I misrepresent your position. My intention is not to create a strawman.) God wants faith, the man wants salvation, and the two trade. The event is transitional.

I have never expressed the above.
It's not in my vocabulary.

If you think this is what is meant by synergy....so be it.

Isn't that right? You give God something he wants so you get what you want?

You made a deal with GOD??

Or is it that you don't understand something about Christianity?
What could that something be?

Why would you bring up such a cold idea?
Is God a cold God to you?

Does He not love His creation??

Does He not want sons?


Romans 8:14-16
14For all who are being led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God.

15For you have not received a spirit of slavery leading to fear again, but you have received a spirit of adoption as sons by which we cry out, “Abba! Father!”

16The Spirit Himself testifies with our spirit that we are children of God,

 

[Just_A__Follower]

No sir.
I spend a lot of time replying to YOUR questions.

Now let's see if you could reply to JUST ONE of mine.
It seems easy enough for anyone who understands grace.

You spend a lot of time answering questions with other questions aka dismissing the original question.

Please POST where I called anything A RULE BOOK.

Thanks.

“That is why we are supose to keep man in check with HIS rule book.” Post 7203

“Is the NT not a rule book??” Post 5647

Well, then, Just, I guess Christianity is just too difficult of a religion for you.
Like I said,,,you might do better with The Law.
It tells you EXACTLY what you are to do to please God.
613 requirements.
Give it a go.



No. The NEVER WERE SAVED part of those that fall away is the EXCUSE that the OSAS give because it's APPARENT in NT writings that some DO in fact fall away. It's a way of theirs to explain this falling away because they cannot accept the truth.

OSAS teaches that once a person "accepts" Jesus (whatever that means to them) NOTHING they do can ever cause them to lose their salvation.

THIS is what OSAS teaches.

So then they read that some DO fall away...
the excuse? They were never saved to begin with.

Which means that NO ONE can be sure of their salvation!
Pretty lame excuse, isn't it.


Correct.
But, it seems to me, that we have to post correct NT teaching....
no matter whether we like it or not.

Correct teaching is that A BELIEVER can fall away.
JESUS taught this, and Paul and all the writers.


Because Just,,,,it's terrible for a person not to be sure of their salvation.
It's terrible not to know if God is pleased with you or not.
It's terrible not to know where you're going to spend eternity.
etc.

Jesus said He came to bring a life more abundant.
How do we have a life more abundant if a person is not even sure of his salvation??

You believe that you are able to fall away. Is this not the same? You are not sure where you will spend eternity since you cannot be sure that you won’t fall away. The OSAS are the only ones that seem to be sure about where they will spend eternity.

LOL
I don't know anyone that is perfect.

However, if a person murders one human...
then repents...

then murders another human...

I'd have some serious question as to his sincerity.

God cannot be mocked.

So if someone lies again or steals again, you wouldn’t have the same serious question about their sincerity? What if someone just hates their brother again?

 

[Toknow]

You spend a lot of time answering questions with other questions aka dismissing the original question.

“That is why we are supose to keep man in check with HIS rule book.” Post 7203

“Is the NT not a rule book??” Post 5647



You believe that you are able to fall away. Is this not the same? You are not sure where you will spend eternity since you cannot be sure that you won’t fall away. The OSAS are the only ones that seem to be sure about where they will spend eternity.

So if someone lies again or steals again, you wouldn’t have the same serious question about their sincerity? What if someone just hates their brother again?

The NT, in the way that I stated it
IS A RULE BOOK.

It explains HOW we are to be saved.

It was not meant to express the idea that we follow a SET OF RULES.

As to the rest,,,
this looks like an ongoing debate about the same ideas.

Anyway, I don't reply to questions so I see no reason why you would keep asking them.

Have a good day sir.