Loss of salvation???

[Genez]

Why would you think I didn't know?

You did not give an answer that would show you did.

 

[Toknow]

Ever notice I have little time for you?

This saddens me Gene.
I was hoping you'd have more time for me.

For I have figured you out.

Great!
At least someone has!!

You love legalism too much.

Oh yeah.
I do.
Really I do.
I have this thick book on my desk, right here beside me.
I check that book every night and make sure I did everything it says.
And if I missed just one little tiny thing,,,
I just start sweating bullets...knowing how unhappy God is with me.
Gosh. I might even have lost my salvation!!!

I do not know what your background is.
But, apparently, what you do you learned to consider normal and without question.

What do you mean you don't know my background?
You seem to know everything about me !

And you're right.
I don't question anything.

I just accept whatever is presented to me.

Which is kind of strange because I can't seem to accept what You offer...

Will have to give this some thought.

If it is ever to happen?

You're the type that needs to be shocked into correction.

Whatcha got in mind?
Just keep in mind that I have a heart thing.
You know...
Don't make it toooo shocking.
Maybe I didn't follow all the rules in my big black book
and I won't be ready for, you know, death.

But, that will not happen with you.

What won't happen?
I had such high hopes.

For up goes the nose, and away you walk.

Thank God...I can still walk!
I see people around that can't.
No nose up for them !

In Bible college I had contact with a very pretty legalistic girl.
It was a pity to behold.
Very saddening.

What was sad?
That you couldn't date her?
There are plenty of fish in the sea...no problem.

You do seem to know a lot about me however...
I am rather cute.

You're pretty good !
You shoulda been a mentalist !

 

[Toknow]

You did not give an answer that would show you did.

Ya know GeneZ

I know a lot of stuff that you don't know that I know.

I like soteriology and apologetics.

I try to stick to those.

 

[Kroogz]

Hebrews 6:4-6 was a report to the Jerusalem church concerning the sad state of certain Jewish believers in Christ.

Instead of standing on the atonement of Christ?
They reverted to their old way of thinking which was under the Law of Moses.

They had come to know salvation.

​

"who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age..."​

Yet, they had been Jews so strongly dedicated to following the law, that they had made the law into their god.

It says it is impossible to bring them back to repentance.
Not, impossible to bring them back to salvation.

Repentance means to have a change of mind.
To accept correction.

Those Jews, like Catholics who refuse to give up Mary worship, were refusing to accept the atonement of the Cross.

The animal sacrifices under the law had been teaching tools for Jews to learn the principles for atonement.
So, when the Cross finally came? It could become an easy change in thinking to see that what the animal sacrifices
taught about, but could not fulfill and put an end to their need as the Cross does.

In effect? Those Jews continuing in the animal sacrifices were making a mockery of the Cross of Jesus!

To their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace.​

Their stubbornness caused them to became spiritually retarded.
Like cutting oxegen off from the brain for too long.
Ever try reasoning with a retarded person who was doing something they did not want to stop doing?
It was impossible to achieve success at that stage.

So? Though these Jewish believers were saved?
They were going to fail in having God bestow His blessings upon them.
For, to become eligible for God's blessings that one needs to be walking in the Spirit and truth to receive.

That is why the writer of Hebrews told the readers to stop trying to change them, and to move on to the blessings that accompany salvation for the faithful believer.

​

Land that drinks in the rain often falling on it and that produces a crop useful to those for whom it is farmed receives the blessing of God. But land that produces thorns and thistles is worthless and is in danger of being cursed. In the end it will be burned. Hebrews 6:7-8​

That burning does not refer to Hell. For this is speaking about those who entered salvation.
That burning they would face is to be seen in 1 Corinthians 3:11-15.

​

For no other foundation can anyone lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. ​

Now if anyone builds on this foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, ​

straw, each one’s work will become clear; for the Day will declare it, because it will be ​

revealed by fire; and the fire will test each one’s work, of what sort it is. If anyone’s work ​

which he has built on it endures, he will receive a reward. If anyone’s work is burned, ​

he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.​

See it come together now?

Hebrews 6 was not about a loss of salvation.
But, a loss of rewards which will be revealed after their works were tested by fire!

For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, ​

which God prepared in advance for us to do. Ephesians 2:10​

Their works will be burned! Not the person!

If anyone’s work is burned, he will suffer loss (of reward); ​

but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.​

​

grace and peace ........

Completely agree.

My point was for those who think they have to maintain salvation or possibly lose it, like the Jews did. It is actually about our security in Christ.

Once renewed always renewed.

 

[Toknow]

Completely agree.

My point was for those who think they have to maintain salvation or possibly lose it, like the Jews did. It is actually about our security in Christ.

Once renewed always renewed.

I think you need to go back and reread Hebrews 6:4-6 again and this time, you know,
actually read it and leave your silly ideas behind so you could really understand that THOSE FELL AWAY.

Yeah.

 

[Genez]

Completely agree.

My point was for those who think they have to maintain salvation or possibly lose it, like the Jews did. It is actually about our security in Christ.

Once renewed always renewed.

It does not say that He died for 'most of our sins.'

When He saves us He already knows what sins we will commit after we are saved.
Yet, He saved us just the same....

Logic...
Keyword for Logos is where we derived logic from.

 

[Genez]

I think you need to go back and reread Hebrews 6:4-6 again and this time, you know,
actually read it and leave your silly ideas behind so you could really understand that THOSE FELL AWAY.

Yeah.

There you go.

Why don't you go find some church filled with baby Christians and some lame brained insecure pastor, so you can scare them all?

Ever try to restore a Catholic who prays to Mary, back to praying only in Jesus name?
They fell away, too.

Yes... God saves even people whom He knows will be stubborn and stupid after they are saved.
He is not willing that any should perish...

If they believed Jesus died for their sins, and later become stupid about everything else?
They are saved.

You must think God is petty and likes to have anyone who does things wrong to burn in the Lake of Fire?
It angers Satan that God saves them in spite of themselves.
It is God's way of telling Satan and his angels that they too could have been restored if they had only repented.

Enjoy your day....
I will enjoy His.

 

[Genez]

Ya know GeneZ

I know a lot of stuff that you don't know that I know.

I like soteriology sand apologetics.

I try to stick to those.

There is also bad soteriology and apologetics.
And, there is good.

Legalism knows what feels right to its legalistic impulses.

I will just keep dribbling the ball around you.

 

[Roger316]

You went from stating that our free will in inviolable
to stating that God does everything...

I don't think I said anything like that. You seem to be confusing me with someone else.

That's monergism...

I don't believe in monergism or synergism. Stop trying to fit me into a box.

The Holy Spirit DOES NOT PRESERVE US.
The Holy Spirit helps us to be preserved.

You SAY you believe in free will....
but your statements do not show this.

What is being "born again?" It doesn't seem like you have heard of it.

 

[Roger316]

Apparently, since you got 3 likes for stating that we are not required to obey God....
it seems that some on this thread believe it's OK to disobey God.

I didn't say disobedience was permissible. Please don't put words in my mouth. I said that obedience was NOT a requirement for salvation. In fact, I showed you from Deuteronomy that after God circumcises the hearts of Israel, they will obey him. Circumcision of the heart precedes obedience.

Obedience is required for salvation.

JESUS said so:

Matthew 7:26-27
26 "Everyone who hears these words of Mine and does not act on them, will be like a foolish man who built his house on the sand.
27 "The rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and slammed against that house; and it fell -and great was its fall."

Jesus said we are to feed the hungry and clothe the poor, along with other commands....
Those who do NOT DO as Jesus commanded :

We talked about this passage already. You skipped a verse. Matthew 7:24, where Jesus says that the wise man's house will never fall. In your view, this can never happen because in your view, the wise man can always fall -- contradicting what Jesus said.

Matthew 25:45-46
45 "Then He will answer them, 'Truly I say to you, to the extent * that you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.'

46 "These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."

Strike Two....

This is not a strike against my view since it says nothing about believers having fallen from grace.

you state that we are not to obey GOD.

I did not say that we are not to obey God. In fact, I distinctly remember telling you that everyone is obligated to obey God.

Roger...you can believe your calvinist ideology....

I don't believe in Calvinist ideology.

I'll just say this:
IF the Holy Spirit is indwelling and dedicated to doing God's will...
then I certainly hope that you give full responsibility to the Holy Spirit when a person sins.

Everyone sins, everyone is evil. Do you doubt that?

 

[studier]

Please explain to me from the Greek why the all that is given to Christ in the following verse does not include people and if it does, why are they the exception to being lost.

John 6:39
This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day.

I said IMO it does include people (and likely more things), but it's corporate in the sense of a finished group (a thing instead of a man or individual men) like the finalized Body of Christ.

IOW it's the completed package of what God wants raised and Jesus will have lost nothing from it pursuant to God's parameters, which [arguably] allows men the choice to depart - so they either were part and left before completion, or never were part - both of which could be applied.

I'm also going to ask you to look at the Vine and the Branches analogy in John15 and say who's removing non-producing branches from the Vine/Jesus and letting them dehydrate and having them thrown into fire and burned - Jesus or the Father - the farmer/vine-dresser.

IMO and the opinion of those who see individual departure (or more) as actual potential, there's a reason Jesus speaks of this completed package (6:37a with 6:38-39) vs. individuals (6:37b-38 with 40) who come toward/to Him and He assures them He will not force them to leave, or force them out.

I think things like this also present us with timing issues to consider - when is this talking about? The main focus of the Father's will is the raising in the last day as was Jesus' statement in John12:48-50 about judgment. IOW, but Lord, I thought it was OSAS and one & done and you promised me life even if I didn't obey you and did decide to leave you! Who told you my Word says that?

 

[Roger316]

Oops.
You sound upset.
You're reformed and you know it.
Are you embarrased by it?


Do you read the NT?
Do you read ONLY the parts about how we are chidren of God?
I believe you've missed all the parts where it teaches that salvation can be lost.

And this WAS NEVER SAVED bs is really getting old.

IF THEY WERE NEVER SAVED...

then dear sir...

EVEN YOU CANNOT KNOW IF YOU'RE REALLY SAVED.


I think I understand Paul just fine.

I understand Calvin really fine too.

But I prefer to follow Jesus.

You seem to have a short memory. I already told you how God teaches a follower of Christ that his or her salvation is secure and can't be lost. This is a major theme of the NT. In fact, as I demonstrated, three different Apostles make the same point. Namely, we exult in our trials because perseverance is proof that our faith can never be shaken. Jesus makes this same case in the parable of the Sower, where he says that the word planted in the cultivated soil will persevere and bear fruit.

 

[Roger316]

YOU are helping others to learn how to read the bible for themselves?
Egotism.
Pride.
The two sins that lead to all other sins.

There is nothing egotistic or prideful about a math student doing his own homework. Likewise, there is nothing egotistic or prideful in a Bible student doing his own Bible study. If the reformers got one thing right, it's the fact that the Holy Spirit encourages independent Bible study, so as to search the scriptures unfiltered by Religious Dogma. The truth is open to everyone.

AND THEN HAVE FALLEN AWAY....
can't take it, can you?


Ruins your reformed theology.

It doesn't ruin MY theology to consider verses from within their context instead of "proof-texting" single verses. A man can take a single verse and make it say anything he wants to hear. Those who learn that the scriptures have an objective meaning, which is a message intended by the author, develop the necessary Bible study techniques that seek the message for it's own sake. Not simply to win an argument.

I encourage you to examine the text from within the context and try to understand what Jesus and the Apostles are trying to teach us, rather than attempting to box them into a corner.

 

[Kroogz]

I think you need to go back and reread Hebrews 6:4-6 again and this time, you know,
actually read it and leave your silly ideas behind so you could really understand that THOSE FELL AWAY.

Yeah.

Yes, they fell away.

And it is very similar to the loss of salvation crowd of today.

They no longer rely on Christs finished work. They rely on their work/fruit/obedience.

They have fallen from Grace, fallen away.......Made shipwreck of the faith.

You install "loss of salvation" in the verse. And it is quite clear that it is nigh on impossible to renew your mind of that misconception.

 

[Kroogz]

You must think God is petty and likes to have anyone who does things wrong to burn in the Lake of Fire?

Burn in the Lake of Fire. This is what loss of salvation would mean.

Anyone who has an inkling of the Character and nature of The Lord Jesus would know that loss of salvation would be as clear as eternal security.

Never perish.
No condemnation.
Born of imperishable seed.
Nothing can separate us from the love of Christ.
We are sealed for the day of redemption.
We have eternal life.

The Lord Jesus Christ would tell us clearly " a believer can lose their salvation and burn in the Lake of fire forever." It would be clear and indisputable. Not as clear as mud.

 

[Genez]

I didn't say disobedience was permissible. Please don't put words in my mouth. I said that obedience was NOT a requirement for salvation. In fact, I showed you from Deuteronomy that after God circumcises the hearts of Israel, they will obey him. Circumcision of the heart precedes obedience.

We talked about this passage already. You skipped a verse. Matthew 7:24, where Jesus says that the wise man's house will never fall. In your view, this can never happen because in your view, the wise man can always fall -- contradicting what Jesus said.


This is not a strike against my view since it says nothing about believers having fallen from grace.

I did not say that we are not to obey God. In fact, I distinctly remember telling you that everyone is obligated to obey God.

I don't believe in Calvinist ideology.

Everyone sins, everyone is evil. Do you doubt that?

She... will really wear you out if you take her seriously.
She's like a weapon formed to de-edify.

Period.

 

[Genez]

I think things like this also present us with timing issues to consider - when is this talking about? The main focus of the Father's will is the raising in the last day as was Jesus' statement in John12:48-50 about judgment. IOW, but Lord, I thought it was OSAS and one & done and you promised me life even if I didn't obey you and did decide to leave you! Who told you my Word says that?

Jonah was leaving God when a big fish swallowed him.
What happened?

 

[Lovette]

Oh my gosh.

Do you know what it means to bind and loose?
You really should find out.

And if you're wrong about THAT
perhaps you could be wrong about forfeiture of salvation too?


Please explain how the following persons WERE NEVER SAVED.
Thanks.


2 Peter 2:20-22
20 For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world by the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and are overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first.

21 For it would be better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn away from the holy commandment handed on to them.

22 It has happened to them according to the true proverb, "A DOG RETURNS TO ITS OWN VOMIT," and, "A sow, after washing, returns to wallowing in the mire."


Peter even states that they RETURNED TO THEIR VOMIT...AND RETURNED TO THE MIRE.



Here's another passage.
These also were saved and then became lost....


Hebrews 6:4-6
4 For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit,


5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come,


6 and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame.

Here's your answer, same as the message from 1 Cor. 3:12-15 - loss of REWARD, not salvation, and harsher punishment.

And that servant who knew his master’s will, and did not prepare himself or do according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes. But he who did not know, yet committed things deserving of stripes, shall be beaten with few. For everyone to whom much is given, from him much will be required; and to whom much has been committed, of him they will ask the more. (Lk. 12:47-48)

“But his lord answered and said to him, ‘You wicked and lazy servant, you knew that I reap where I have not sown, and gather where I have not scattered seed. So you ought to have deposited my money with the bankers, and at my coming I would have received back my own with interest. So take the talent from him, and give it to him who has ten talents. ‘For to everyone who has, more will be given, and he will have abundance; but from him who does not have, even what he has will be taken away. And cast the unprofitable servant into the outer darkness. There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’ (Mt. 25:26-30)

 

[Lovette]

Did the ungrateful servant lose his forgiveness or did it just appear that he was forgiven?

IDK, the Lord will judge wisely and fairly upon his second coming.

“Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life. Most assuredly, I say to you, the hour is coming, and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God; and those who hear will live. For as the Father has life in Himself, so He has granted the Son to have life in Himself, and has given Him authority to execute judgment also, because He is the Son of Man. Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice; and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation. I can of Myself do nothing. As I hear, I judge; and My judgment is righteous, because I do not seek My own will but the will of the Father who sent Me. (Jn. 5:24-30)

 

[Genez]

Here's your answer, same as the message from 1 Cor. 3:12-15 - loss of REWARD, not salvation, and harsher punishment.

And that servant who knew his master’s will, and did not prepare himself or do according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes. But he who did not know, yet committed things deserving of stripes, shall be beaten with few. For everyone to whom much is given, from him much will be required; and to whom much has been committed, of him they will ask the more. (Lk. 12:47-48)

“But his lord answered and said to him, ‘You wicked and lazy servant, you knew that I reap where I have not sown, and gather where I have not scattered seed. So you ought to have deposited my money with the bankers, and at my coming I would have received back my own with interest. So take the talent from him, and give it to him who has ten talents. ‘For to everyone who has, more will be given, and he will have abundance; but from him who does not have, even what he has will be taken away. And cast the unprofitable servant into the outer darkness. There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’ (Mt. 25:26-30)

IMHO...

Outer darkness does not mean hell.
Hell is beneath the earth, not outer space.
Outer darkness is outer space around the earth.

Outer darkness is a place of punishment for the rebellious unfaithful believers during the Millennium.
They will be confined to outer space, not on earth, looking down and into what they are being denied by God.
They will be weeping and gnashing their teeth to see what great joyous experiences others will be enjoying that they will be denied.