Loss of salvation???

[markss]

Sensitive aren't we?

Typical.

 

[markss]

Sensitive aren't we?

WHAT did I post that so offended you?
Post it.

Digging the bottom of the barrel maybe?
You feel that you need to protect MMD?
He's a grown adult markss and does not require your help.

However, yes,,,that post of his DID NOT MAKE ANY SENSE.

I've posted why you will not reply.

Because the reply will incriminate you.

There is no reply because any reply will prove you WRONG.

yes sir.
Wrong.

Your whole post is projection. I've told you why I'm not interested in replying to you. Lack of manners. Lack of bounderies. Doesn't make for good conversation.

"Oh How did I hurt you?" Are you kidding me???

 

[Mem]

I could ask Bill.
He might know.
Craig is good at this stuff.

What I know is that what I think is NOT what I am.

Do YOU believe that we are what we think?


Root?
Are you projecting onto Matthew 13 and Luke 8?

I was continuing in the topic of the parable of the Sower. Could you make sure your verse references are hot linked? You can't expect me to retrieve them myself if I shouldn't expect you to be as kind to take advantage of the, very helpful, feature added for such appreciated convenience.

 

[Mem]

What I know is that what I think is NOT what I am.

Does this apply if you think you are a Christian?

 

[markss]

I recall telling you that you were wrong about this and several things by now.

Having your words and their words in the same posts it was easy to see, though maybe easier for someone else perhaps.

Regardless, we're going in circles.

Much love!

 

[Toknow]

Typical.

Sensitive!!!!

You know what's typical markss?

How you speak between yourselves...
which should not be practiced on a Forum...
but what do I know....

but will not reply to questions UNLESS you think the reply will help your cause.

JESUS said that they BELEIVED FOR A WHILE.

A believer is SAVED.

THEN they FELL AWAY.

They fell away from their faith,,,what they believed,,,,
they fell away from their SALVATION.


Not those that cry LORD LORD...
The foolish man that did NOT act on the words of Jesus....
If we endure....
If we do not fall away...
If we do not return to our previous state....

The NT is very clear in what it teaches.
There are CONDITIONS to being saved.
There are CONDITIONS to remaining saved.


James 3:1
1 My brothers and sisters, most of you shouldn't want to be teachers. You know that those of us who teach will be held more accountable.


I even used a different version......
it states the same as all the others!

 

[Toknow]

Your whole post is projection. I've told you why I'm not interested in replying to you. Lack of manners. Lack of bounderies. Doesn't make for good conversation.

"Oh How did I hurt you?" Are you kidding me???

Post it.

Post what I said that bothered you so much that you are unable to reply.

LACK OF MANNERS??

HERE is what is lack of manners.....

members speaking among themselves without tagging in the member they're speaking of.

This is gossip.

Members that do this should be thread banned...
and if continued they should be forum banned for a month or so.

THIS is lack of manners.

NOT
What I might say to YOUR FACE.

lEARN THE DIFFERENCE.

 

[markss]

Here is what Jesus said:


John 13:35
35 If you love one another, everyone will know you are my disciples."

We love one another
It gives a signal


What you DO
determines WHO YOU ARE

It does not determine who you are, it shows who you are. You are not mammal because you breathe, you breathe because you are a mammal.

Loving others does not cause you to be Jesus' disciple, even the sinners love each other (As Jesus said), being a disciple causes you to love others.

No one can see if you are a disciple, that's inside, but others can see if you love, that's outside.

If you love one another, they will know you are his disciples.

Your actions show what you are, it does not cause you to be what you are.

Much love!

 

[Toknow]

I was continuing in the topic of the parable of the Sower. Could you make sure your verse references are hot linked? You can't expect me to retrieve them myself if I shouldn't expect you to be as kind to take advantage of the, very helpful, feature added for such appreciated convenience.

i don't know how to HOT LINK.

My habit is to post the verses I'm referring to...but this was going too fast to keep repeating the verse.

I'll do it now:

My point was to show that Jesus Himself taught that our salvation is conditional and that it could be forfeited.

I used 3 parables,,,but right now we were discussing:
one verse does not doctrine make...but there are many in the NT.


Luke 8:13
13 "Those on the rocky soil are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no firm root; they believe for a while, and in time of temptation fall away.


My point is:

1. They HEAR,,,,they RECIEVE with joy.

2. They believe for a while.

3. They fall away.


So the Word is received....this is not a mental belief.
Jesus said they BELIEVE for a while. A believer is a saved person.
Then...they fall away.


Your comment would be appreciated.


But later...

 

[Toknow]

Does this apply if you think you are a Christian?

I don't THINK I'm a Christian.
I can know that I am.

 

[studier]

I've come to the conclusion that your intent is to remove any shadow of doubt and so have adopted the approach to the subject in such position as the devil's advocate. But, then again, I might be projecting.

Close.
I'm sure some here will agree with 'devil's advocate' but more literally than idiomatically.
I don't know if we can get to removal of 'any shadow of doubt' in some things. I'm not sure we're meant to or maybe not just yet, which means keep moving forward and realize & accept that He sets the pace.
I'd like us all to be thinkers with solid reasoning - we're all members one of another.
I'd like us all to know His revealed thinking with precision and accuracy. My first question to my first year Greek professor was, 'it's been 2,000 years, what's the problem?' His one-word answer, 'eisegesis'.
In Him under grace I think we should be the wisest and best judges on the planet and likely would be if growth to maturity wasn't attacked/accommodated/promoted as much as it is. Spiritual immaturity is and has been widespread.
I'm pushed and I push.
cc: @Genez

 

[Toknow]

Does this apply if you think you are a Christian?

However,,,,
yes,,,I do believe that some THINK they're Christian
but they are not.
And I'd be happy to discuss this.

 

[markss]

JESUS said that they BELEIVED FOR A WHILE.

James 2:17-20 LITV
17) So also faith, if it does not have works, is dead being by itself.
18) But someone will say, You have faith, and I have works. Show me your faith apart from your works, and I will show you my faith out of my works.
19) You believe that God is One. You do well; even the demons believe and shudder.
20) But are you willing to know, O vain man, that faith apart from works is dead?

Belief does not equal rebirth.

 

[Toknow]

It does not determine who you are, it shows who you are. You are not mammal because you breathe, you breathe because you are a mammal.

Loving others does not cause you to be Jesus' disciple, even the sinners love each other (As Jesus said), being a disciple causes you to love others.

No one can see if you are a disciple, that's inside, but others can see if you love, that's outside.

If you love one another, they will know you are his disciples.

Your actions show what you are, it does not cause you to be what you are.

Much love!

Why don't you reply to the parable of the sower instead?


I'm not interested in discussing
IF HE A THIEF BECAUSE HE STEALS
OR DOES HE STEAL BECAUSE HE'S A THIEF.

I said Bill should be asked this.
NOT me.

I'm interested in theology.

Wish to reply about the sower?
How he accepts the word with joy....
believes for a while...
and then falls away.....

 

[studier]

Having your words and their words in the same posts it was easy to see, though maybe easier for someone else perhaps.

Regardless, we're going in circles.

Much love!

Consider difference in lenses. I think yours are clouded.
Agree re: circles.
All done for now.

 

[Toknow]

James 2:17-20 LITV
17) So also faith, if it does not have works, is dead being by itself.
18) But someone will say, You have faith, and I have works. Show me your faith apart from your works, and I will show you my faith out of my works.
19) You believe that God is One. You do well; even the demons believe and shudder.
20) But are you willing to know, O vain man, that faith apart from works is dead?

Belief does not equal rebirth.

Jesus said they BELIEVED for a while.
Then they fell away.

I asked very specific questions:


1. WHAT did they believe?

2. From WHAT did they fall away?


I doubt Jesus meant mental assent since mental assent does not save
and a person cannot fall away from mental assent.


@PennEd accused me of using my favorite version of the NT.
Not the first time he's done this. As if different versions teach different doctrine.


So let's look at what a different version says:


Luke 8.13
13 Those on the rock are the ones who hear the message and receive it with joy. But they have no roots. They believe for a while. But when they are put to the test, they fall away from the faith.

 

[markss]

Self awareness, while being valuable above many things, is neither always possessed nor always sought after.

Much love!

 

[markss]

Luke 8.13
13 Those on the rock are the ones who hear the message and receive it with joy. But they have no roots. They believe for a while. But when they are put to the test, they fall away from the faith.

Luke 8:13 KJV
13) They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away.

Luke 8:13 LITV
And those on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the Word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a time, and in time of trial draw back.

Luke 8:13 YLT
And those upon the rock: They who, when they may hear, with joy do receive the word, and these have no root, who for a time believe, and in time of temptation fall away.

Luke 8:13 EMTV
But those on the rock are they that, whenever they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of testing fall away.

Whichever version this is I don't know why you'd use it. It's interpreting, not just translating.

Much love!

​

 

[Roger316]

It does have a specific meaning and structure.

I'm not denying that the Greek has meaning and structure. It most certainly does. The locus of my objection is a common pitfall for those of us who use Bible study tools, like dictionaries, lexicons, grammars, and commentaries. Sometimes, inadvertently, we use these tools as if they were inspired scripture, not giving due respect to the fact that they are based on interpretations.

A word doesn’t “mean” anything on its own. It only has meaning when used within a sentence, paragraph, or discourse. Each level of context influences the others. While it’s tempting to cite grammar rules as the answer to a hermeneutical question, we should focus on understanding and explaining how our interpretation of the grammar best clarifies what the author was trying to convey.

Even if we had a grammar that identified every occasion of the third case conditional, we must always be aware that the grammar might be wrong. Granted, it is probably right most of the time, but it remains another man's interpretation of the text. Disciplined Bible study requires that we do our own work and allow ourselves to disagree with the grammar when the author's intent is easily discernible.

A word never carries its full semantic range into any given sentence. Instead, its possible meanings are narrowed and specified by the immediate linguistic environment. The sentence provides the grammatical and logical structure that selects which sense of the word is actually in play. But even a sentence can remain ambiguous or misleading when isolated, because its meaning depends on the paragraph around it—the argument being made, the topic under discussion, the contrasts being drawn, and the author’s rhetorical purpose.

In turn, the paragraph only makes full sense within the larger discourse. Themes, argument flow, and authorial intent shape how each paragraph functions, which then shapes how each sentence works, which finally determines what each word actually means. Interpretation therefore moves back and forth between levels—word, sentence, paragraph, discourse—each one constraining and illuminating the others. Meaning isn’t extracted by zooming in on a word; it emerges from understanding how that word participates in the larger movement of thought.

I apologize in advance for the length of this post.

Few here are trained in really analyzing it but we all nevertheless have opinions, no matter how long we've been reading our Bibles.

I am certainly glad that you have taken the lead on this, and I fully appreciate hearing your ideas. Perhaps more Christians will follow your lead and find a renewed interest in Bible study. I hope they do.

We both know that all is not resolved through knowing how to analyze the language, but, when it gets to a certain depth, at least we can know why and how men have been and are at disagreements in various points.

Good point.

When we've gone as far as we can go, we rest or we continue to seek Him to take us further. Although I've had to go back to unwind some doctrines I was taught, in the studies of the established rules of grammar, it's been pretty much just forward progress.

That's great. I hope others are encouraged by your example. Just remember, teaching others is like sending them a post card that says, "wish you were here."

 

[Roger316]

What you do
determines who you are.

Don't you mean, "what you do demonstrates who you are?" This is a big theme in the New Testament: who we are on the inside vs. who we are on the outside.

If you do not DO
you are no follower of Jesus.

Isn't Jesus' statement meant to be descriptive rather than predictive?

Romans 6:13-16
13 and do not go on presenting the members of your body to sin as instruments of unrighteousness; but present yourselves to God as those alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness to God.

14 For sin shall not be master over you, for you are not under law but under grace.

15 What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? May it never be!

16 Do you not know that when you present yourselves to someone as slaves for obedience, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin resulting in death, or of obedience resulting in righteousness?


1. We are not under the Law
but under grace.
This does not eliminate the necessity of obeying God.
It CHANGES the METHOD by which we can obey.
LOVE.

Is Paul talking about the method here? He doesn't seem to tell us HOW obedience is achieved, only that we submit ourselves to righteousness. What does that look like?

2. We PRESENT OURSELVES to the one we wish to obey as slaves.
Sin.....resulting in death.

Obedience....resulting in righteousness.

Good point. How does this relate to the question of salvation and whether someone can lose it?