Loss of salvation???

[JayWalker]

The last shall be first!

Jesus Christ is the First Born from the Dead so the victorious ones abide in Him and are joint heirs with Him.

Hope you catch up someday pal

You see OSAS in this verse where exactly - where does it say someone cannot walk away or that justification is forever?

Please explain.

They're fixing to try and feed you a pack O Lies

 

[Genez]

There is nothing in the Greek verb tenses that even remotely convey loss/forfeit salvation.

Never perish is never perish.

Eternal life is eternal life.

Born of imperishable seed is imperishable seed.

Having a forever advocate is a forever advocate.

No condemnation is no condemnation.

Being Crucified with Christ is as sure as His life, death and resurrection.

When they get this way there is something weird going on with these people.
It is as if they are relieved to think we can lose our salvation.

I still think some crave the notion as to bully others into thinking they can lose their salvation.
If it were Satan himself telling me I can lose my salvation?
That, at least, would make sense considering where it was coming from.

There is an undercurrent of evil attached to those who are convinced they can undo the saving work of Jesus on the Cross.

 

[Genez]

I did already proved it with scripture.
Paul asks, "Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth. Who is he that condemneth?"
Romans 8:33

They are alienated from thinking with God's nature.

How could omniscience justify what will change for the worse?
He alone knows the beginning and the end. Isaiah 46:10

When He is declaring us justified?
It is for the whole package of what we have been made to become, and will be.
He can not justify us for how we are for only one second of our existence.

 

[rogerg]

They are alienated from thinking with God's nature.

How could omniscience justify what will change for the worse?
He alone knows the beginning and the end. Isaiah 46:10

When He is declaring us justified?
It is for the whole package of what we have been made to become, and will be.
He can not justify us for how we are for only one second of our existence.

And would also mean that salvation isn't completely dependent Jesus Christ (the Savior) and His works, but instead, upon man and his works.

 

[mailmandan]

And would also mean that salvation isn't completely dependent Jesus Christ (the Savior) and His works, but instead, upon man and his works.

Jesus Christ saves us through faith based on the merits of His finished work of redemption alone (Romans 3:24-26) and not based on the merits of our works. (Romans 4:5-6; Ephesians 2:8,9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9)

 

[studier]

There is nothing in the Greek verb tenses that even remotely convey loss/forfeit salvation.

Never perish is never perish.

Eternal life is eternal life.

Born of imperishable seed is imperishable seed.

Having a forever advocate is a forever advocate.

No condemnation is no condemnation.

Being Crucified with Christ is as sure as His life, death and resurrection.

When the scholarship was incorrect re: how to interpret Greek verbs, some were teaching eternal security based upon the perfect tense. Some still are. It's not correct teaching.

Some have aligned with the scholarship and are now back to debating security doctrinally - more like you just did. This means we have to wrestle with every word and concept and doctrine to prove our views.

From my perspective this discussion began when @Genez asked me what the verb tense of 'saved' is in Eph2:8, thinking the perfect tense meant saved goes on forever, just as he and others, including me, had been taught.

It's taken however many pages of nonsense, personal attacks and childishness to get to this point.

Every doctrinal point you just raised is arguable in regard to OSAS. It's all been debated and still is debated among various sects of the Faith. The hostilities are insanity. The proof-texting methodology accomplishes nothing.

@Roger316 mentioned a Reformed author Jack Crabtree who says about proof-texting something to the effect: proof-texting—the practice of using isolated snippets of Scripture as definitive "proof" for a doctrine—is a "sin" against the goal of discovering the objective meaning of a text - and proof-texting is often "fraudulent" and "anti-intelligent" because it ignores the broader context and linguistic intent of the author in favor of confirming existing biases.

I completely agree with him and will note that "linguistic intent" includes grammar being the vehicle through which an author expresses a specific assertion about reality.

Having said this, noting what I said that you responded to, and reading what you said first in your above reply, I will tell you that I do think part of the discussion will in fact involve a verb tense - not the perfect - but mainly the present tense.

@Sipsey very subtly said something in a response to me that I subtly agreed with -

Why are so many concerned about tomorrow, when it’s only today that counts? Today is the day of our salvation!

Not speaking for @Sipsey, but this is OC language repeated by Paul in 2Cor and there is similar language in concept also from the OC speaking about God's sheep that is used in Heb3 in warning passages and in Heb4 in the passages having to do with entering God's rest.

The reason I agreed with @Sipsey is that our salvation is a process. It's odd how so many know the explanation of were saved, are being saved, will be saved - to which I added were saved in the past and are saved right now/today - yet want to put all the emphasis on 'were saved so will be saved' and effectively negate 'are saved today and are being saved', which is what the Eternal Security sect is basically doing, while a bit different version - OSAS - just inserts its 'P' for Perseverance of the Saints into the process and and makes it monergistic.

Both sects are in a sense monergistic and as I'm thinking through this again, if I held to either, which I don't, I'd probably go with the P in TULIP because they at least don't seem to make much room for believers who can turn their back on Christ or be "losers" as some label them but still "go to heaven" because they believed once but had little or no concern for 'today' each day and for 'being saved progressively' (which many call 'being sanctified') so they will just be denied rewards.

At least the Reformed in sense seem to show more respect for God in regard to His Elect and whether in monergism or monergism + compatibilism they don't leave a lot of room for God making loser believers.

Too long already, so two things; Thanks for a direct post without all the disrespect that flies so freely around here, and no one has really done that much with the John5:24 vs. 1John3:14 verses I originally countered you about.

The solution there as I said IMO is very simple - it's not a matter of the word "eternal" - it's not a matter of proof-texting and arguing with other 'doctrines' - it is actually a matter of present tense verbs and the word "abides/remains" in 1John3:14; it's a matter of 'today' as @Sipsey asked a question about and that lasts as long as there is a today.

 

[studier]

Matthew 24:9-13

“Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and kill you, and you will be hated by all nations​

for My name’s sake. And then many will be offended, will betray one another, and will hate one​

another. Then many false prophets will rise up and deceive many. And because lawlessness​

will abound, the love of many will grow cold. But he who endures to the end shall be saved.​

That does not describe the day and age that we are living in.
It was one of mass chaos and violent betrayal going on.

Keep in mind. Those words spoken? Jesus was speaking to Jews.
The Church age had not yet begun!
For Jews will be reading the Bible when the Tribulation hits the world.

What Jesus said was also meant for future Jews, and was intended for Jews who will be alive during the Great Tribulation!

Those who endure to the end? End of the Tribulation? Will be DELIVERED!
They will enter alive into the Millennium with Jesus sitting on His Throne... in Jerusalem!

Those believers will be the ones who will need to endure for seven years of horrible Tribulation on earth!

Well and good though your eschatology will also be argued against by some.

So, I take it you don't see endurance until the end as a general principle re: salvation even though endurance is also instructed and commanded in our salvation process, and timid failure of it resulting in withdrawing from faith and being righteous is warned against in Heb10.

Endurance is a topic that requires substantial discussion in itself. A good argument can be made, probably beginning with Jesus' 4 soils parable that endurance is a necessity in faith and salvation.

I also take it that you'd rather not deal with John5:24 cf. 1John3:14 that I asked you about.

 

[studier]

If you don't mind, you raise some interesting thoughts and questions and I would like to respond to them myself.

Romans 8:33
Admittedly, the verse by itself doesn't necessitate endurance or permanence. But it resides in a context where that is the overall concept. Think of it this way: all of reality is like a house: physical things are on the bottom floor, whereas spiritual things are on the top floor. Humans, animals, planets, stars, trees, mountains, chemistry, physics, and history are all on the bottom floor. Angels, demons, Satan, and heaven are on the top floor. The entire house represents everything that is real. But nothing in the house, whether it is on the top floor or the bottom floor, is permanent. Everything is transitory.

God exists outside the house to the extent that he is self-existent and cannot "go out of existence." Paul argues that if God, who exists outside of time, space, and circumstances, justifies someone, then nothing in all of our reality can thwart his effort or will. Nothing in this reality can defeat God's will for us. This would include our will since we exist inside this reality. But Let's put that aside for now and assume that my will can still dictate my fate.

Paul argues for permanence and endurance earlier in the chapter. For the sake of his argument, Paul narrows the focus to "those who are in Christ Jesus." When Paul makes assertions about those “in Christ” in Romans 8, he is indeed speaking in a way that is categorically true, but with a very specific meaning of “categorical.” When Paul says stuff like:

• “There is now no condemnation for those in Christ Jesus”
• “The Spirit of God dwells in you”
• “You are sons and heirs”
• “Nothing can separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus”

he is not describing:

• how believers feel,
• how they perform,
• or how they perceive themselves.

He is describing what is true by virtue of belonging to the category “in Christ.” This is a status truth, not a situational truth. That being the case, Paul has placed us in a good position to understand what Paul says in Romans 8:10-11. It is categorically true that the Spirit will give life to the mortal bodies of all those who are "in Christ,"



Romans 8:28-30
Here, Paul draws a straight, unbroken line between being foreknown and glorified, affirming his belief that all those "in Christ", without exception, will experience eternal life in the coming age.

The term "foreknown" has the same meaning as "to know" in the covenant sense. Those who were in covenant with Christ will not fail to be glorified.


God preordains who will be saved and who will be judged.


You said it yourself. We are saved according to God's advance plan / divine purpose.

Some are critical of Calvinism, accusing it of being fatalistic. That is the weakness of Calvinism and a fair critique. Fatalism says that our fate is not determined by our free will choices and so it doesn't matter what we do. In the end it is always the same.

The missing piece of the foreordination picture is the idea that God not only foreordains people he foreordains their personal stories. When people talk about foreordination, they usually imagine God determining who will be saved. But Scripture’s vision is far richer and more personal. God does not merely foreordain destinations; He foreordains narratives. In other words: God does not simply foreordain that you will be His. He foreordains how you will become His.
This is the difference between a bare decree and a crafted life.

Fatalism says:
“The end is fixed, and nothing you do matters.”

Biblical predestination says something entirely different:
?The end is fixed because God is writing a story in which your actions, choices, prayers, and faith genuinely matter.”

Fatalism erases agency. Predestination establishes agency by giving it a place in a divinely crafted narrative.

This is the crucial distinction.

No disrespect but I ended yesterday smiling at how a simple discussion and taking a certain position on mainly a single issue and a couple pieces of yet unanswered Scripture, end up being in the position of being pulled in several directions from different points of doctrine. So, I'm going to self-limit for awhile and stay on-point.

I will say that a quick read through this leaves me with this: I think I see Crabtree's philosophical determinism; I don't agree with monergism or monergism + compatibilism; God's finalized Plan is intact and remains intact no matter what, but endurance and perseverance is commanded, explained, and thus IMO is volitional, and as I just posted re: the "endure to the end will be saved" Scripture, endurance in itself is a topic worthy of more extensive discussion. All this to say I don't accept Perseverance of the Saints doctrine.

I hope you'll note my mention of the essence of Crabtree's remarks about proof-texting, which IMO were very good. See my most recent post to @Genez

 

[studier]

They're fixing to try and feed you a pack O Lies

I'm prepared.

 

[rogerg]

Jesus Christ saves us through faith based on the merits of His finished work of redemption alone (Romans 3:24-26) and not based on the merits of our works. (Romans 4:5-6; Ephesians 2:8,9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9)

I would respectfully suggest that it is in the reverse - that for those whom He chose to salvation, everything pertaining to/required for salvation was completely and perfectly achieved/accomplished/satisfied by Christ alone as the Savior with nothing being left out of it- and by His righteousness/faith, salvation is given, and by salvation, is our faith is given. That is, for those saved they are but recipients and beneficiaries of what Christ brought forth.

[2Pe 1:1 KJV] 1 Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ:

[Gal 2:16 KJV] 16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

[1Pe 1:2-5 KJV]
2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.
3 Blessed [be] the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,
4 To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you,
5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

 

[studier]

When they get this way there is something weird going on with these people.
It is as if they are relieved to think we can lose our salvation.

I still think some crave the notion as to bully others into thinking they can lose their salvation.
If it were Satan himself telling me I can lose my salvation?
That, at least, would make sense considering where it was coming from.

There is an undercurrent of evil attached to those who are convinced they can undo the saving work of Jesus on the Cross.

Ad hominem rhetoric.

 

[mailmandan]

When they get this way there is something weird going on with these people.
It is as if they are relieved to think we can lose our salvation.

I still think some crave the notion as to bully others into thinking they can lose their salvation.
If it were Satan himself telling me I can lose my salvation?
That, at least, would make sense considering where it was coming from.

There is an undercurrent of evil attached to those who are convinced they can undo the saving work of Jesus on the Cross

These folks are wrapped up in the gospel according to SELF.

SELF promotion.
SELF righteousness.
SELF preservation.

 

[studier]

They are alienated from thinking with God's nature.

How could omniscience justify what will change for the worse?
He alone knows the beginning and the end. Isaiah 46:10

When He is declaring us justified?
It is for the whole package of what we have been made to become, and will be.
He can not justify us for how we are for only one second of our existence.

More ad hominem rhetoric.

Note the thumbs-up from the Reformed monergistic determinist in agreement with the Free-Grace Dispensationalist.

I'll bet the agreement only lasts for a moment if you start talking Reformed vs. Free-Grace.

 

[studier]

And would also mean that salvation isn't completely dependent Jesus Christ (the Savior) and His works, but instead, upon man and his works.

Reformed monergism.

 

[studier]

Jesus Christ saves us through faith based on the merits of His finished work of redemption alone (Romans 3:24-26) and not based on the merits of our works. (Romans 4:5-6; Ephesians 2:8,9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9)

Basic Faith-Alone of which there is little if any disagreement as far as this statement goes.

 

[studier]

I would respectfully suggest that it is in the reverse

And there it begins - Reformed vs. what is essentially Free-Grace Faith-Alone.

On the merry-go-round...

Couldn't have scripted it better.

Another page in His book this day - huh @Roger316?

 

[PennEd]

When they get this way there is something weird going on with these people.
It is as if they are relieved to think we can lose our salvation.

Exactly right.

They simply cannot fathom that the finished work of Jesus Christ is enough for salvation.

It pinches their conscience when others point out this Truth.

The relief they feel is that they pridefully think their works and obedience will save them, NOT obedience to the Gospel, solely the finished work of Jesus.

And so they constantly compare themselves to others.

“I’m not like those sinners that rely solely on Jesus, I fast twice a week, give generously to the poor, etc…”

 

[studier]

These folks are wrapped up in the gospel according to SELF.

SELF promotion.
SELF righteousness.
SELF preservation.

Exactly right.

They simply cannot fathom that the finished work of Jesus Christ is enough for salvation.

It pinches their conscience when others point out this Truth.

The relief they feel is that they pridefully think their works and obedience will save them, NOT obedience to the Gospel, solely the finished work of Jesus.

And so they constantly compare themselves to others.

“I’m not like those sinners that rely solely on Jesus, I fast twice a week, give generously to the poor, etc…”

The lack of sound reasoning in favor of multiple fallacious arguments around here is quite the thing.

But it's a lot easier than thinking through and understanding Scripture - obviously anybody can do what's being done here...

Pathetic.

 

[TruthDefender]

Not all who believed throughout time are Christians.
Adam and Eve were not Christians. Isaiah was not. Moses was not... etc.

Before Pentecost took place?
Jews were Jews and the term, 'in Christ,' did not yet exist.

That is why, Jesus disciples were all said to be Jewish.
Jesus was called a 'rabbi' and taught his Jewish disciples.

Google search it: Jesus was called a 'rabbi' and taught Jewish disciples.

At Pentecost was when the new creation in Christ first appeared.
The Church that day came into being.
At the Rapture the church will have been removed from the earth.

Then....

Jews left on earth, who will then believe?
Will once again be called Jews.
The Church will raptured and will be in heaven

What do your statements have to do with your question? Of course Adam and Eve weren’t Christians, they also weren’t Jews. Judaism didn’t begin till millenniums later. They were the first 2 humans on this planet.

To answer your question regarding Matt. 24:9-13, Jesus was talking to the 11 disciples on the Mount of Olives about what the signs would be before He returns. He was eluding to what future Christians would go through, and warning that we would be hated by the world for His name sake (which is true, we have various levels of persecution, depending on where we live).

 

[mailmandan]

Exactly right.

They simply cannot fathom that the finished work of Jesus Christ is enough for salvation.

It pinches their conscience when others point out this Truth.

The relief they feel is that they pridefully think their works and obedience will save them, NOT obedience to the Gospel, solely the finished work of Jesus.

And so they constantly compare themselves to others.

“I’m not like those sinners that rely solely on Jesus, I fast twice a week, give generously to the poor, etc…”

Amen! I will never forget very soon after I received Jesus Christ through faith several years ago and the light finally came on that I realized until we get to the end of the creature, we will not get to the beginning of the Creator. It's a PRIDE issue.