Loss of salvation???

[studier]

I hope you'll note my mention of the essence of Crabtree's remarks about proof-texting, which IMO were very good. See my most recent post to @Genez

@Roger316 - sorry, I meant my post to @Kroogz

 

[Gideon300]

You see OSAS in this verse where exactly - where does it say someone cannot walk away or that justification is forever?

Please explain.

Same question.

Plus, since I know you're not Reformed, are you going to now explain foreknowledge and predestination?

Will you also explain how and why we're now glorified in light of verses like Rom8:17 and in light of Rom8:28 that puts this into the context of God's prothesis - God's advance plan / divine purpose?

And I can go on asking you questions and requesting you explain Scripture apart from simply asserting they substantiate your presupposition.

Can you provide and explain Scripture that proves without a doubt that He doesn't?

Why are you so keen to "prove" that a Christian can lose their salvation? Is there some perverse satisfaction that you get in trying to undermine someone's faith? It is the exact opposite of what believers should be doing.

"And we urge you, brothers, to admonish the unruly, encourage the fainthearted, help the weak, and be patient with everyone."
(1 Thessalonians 5:14)

Are you afraid for yourself? It's a known psychological problem called projection.

You still do not know what it means to be born again. Do you not know that it is by an imperishable seed? Tell me how the imperishable can die? Tell me what part of eternal can die? If God causes us to be new creations, who can reverse what God has done? All who are born again have the spirit of adoption, Romans 8: 15-17

"For you did not receive a spirit of slavery that returns you to fear, but you received the Spirit of adoption to sonship, by whom we cry, “Abba! Father!” The Spirit Himself testifies with our spirit that we are God’s children.

Romans 8: 9-11
"You, however, are controlled not by the flesh, but by the Spirit, if the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Christ. But if Christ is in you, your body is dead because of sin, yet your spirit is alive because of righteousness. And if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead is living in you, He who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit, who lives in you."

My Bible tells me that I am the righteousness of God in Christ.
"God made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, so that in Him we might become the righteousness of God." 2 Corinthians 5:21

 

[studier]

Why are you so keen to "prove" that a Christian can lose their salvation? Is there some perverse satisfaction that you get in trying to undermine someone's faith? It is the exact opposite of what believers should be doing.

So, you want to join in on the poor reasoning with personal attacks...

My interest is that God's Word be read accurately and that we all accept as Truth and understand everything that He says. Your labeling as otherwise is meaningless.

It's really as simple as that

There's no reason for me to read the rest of your post.

 

[Roger316]

No disrespect but I ended yesterday smiling at how a simple discussion and taking a certain position on mainly a single issue and a couple pieces of yet unanswered Scripture, end up being in the position of being pulled in several directions from different points of doctrine. So, I'm going to self-limit for awhile and stay on-point.

I will say that a quick read through this leaves me with this: I think I see Crabtree's philosophical determinism; I don't agree with monergism or monergism + compatibilism; God's finalized Plan is intact and remains intact no matter what, but endurance and perseverance is commanded, explained, and thus IMO is volitional, and as I just posted re: the "endure to the end will be saved" Scripture, endurance in itself is a topic worthy of more extensive discussion. All this to say I don't accept Perseverance of the Saints doctrine.

I hope you'll note my mention of the essence of Crabtree's remarks about proof-texting, which IMO were very good. See my most recent post to @Genez

Dr. Crabtree's view concerning the narrative structure of creation is the key piece of the puzzle that helped me make sense of sovereignty vs. freewill.

 

[Roger316]

Basic Faith-Alone of which there is little if any disagreement as far as this statement goes.

Faith Alone is a slogan we inherited from the Reformers. If Dr. Crabtree is right, the slogan should have been "Santified Alone" based on the Greek meaning of "hagios": selected for a divine purpose.

 

[studier]

Dr. Crabtree's view concerning the narrative structure of creation is the key piece of the puzzle that helped me make sense of sovereignty vs. freewill.

Understood. Yet you'd agree that it is determinism and thus understand why others reject the entire model, correct?

 

[mailmandan]

Faith Alone is a slogan we inherited from the Reformers. If Dr. Crabtree is right, the slogan should have been "Santified Alone" based on the Greek meaning of "hagios": selected for a divine purpose.

Faith (rightly understood) in Jesus Christ "alone" for salvation (Romans 4:5-6; Ephesians 2:8,9) must not be confused with an empty profession of faith/dead faith that remains "alone" barren of works. (James 2:14-26)

 

[studier]

Faith Alone is a slogan we inherited from the Reformers. If Dr. Crabtree is right, the slogan should have been "Santified Alone" based on the Greek meaning of "hagios": selected for a divine purpose.

Also understood with the same question/comment.

 

[Roger316]

And there it begins - Reformed vs. what is essentially Free-Grace Faith-Alone.

On the merry-go-round...

Couldn't have scripted it better.

Another page in His book this day - huh @Roger316?

As I said before, Reformers were good exegetes of scripture, but they were bad at philosophy. The truth must account for both God's sovereignty and Human freedom.

 

[studier]

Faith (rightly understood) in Jesus Christ "alone" for salvation (Romans 4:5-6; Ephesians 2:8,9) must not be confused with an empty profession of faith/dead faith that remains "alone" barren of works. (James 2:14-26)

'rightly understood' being the key that the theological system you advocate does not have.

 

[studier]

As I said before, Reformers were good exegetes of scripture, but they were bad at philosophy. The truth must account for both God's sovereignty and Human freedom.

And some who go way back to the ECF say the Reformers were not such great exegetes. And some say exegesis was harmed by Greek Philosophy. And some say....

 

[Roger316]

Faith (rightly understood) in Jesus Christ "alone" for salvation (Romans 4:5-6; Ephesians 2:8,9) must not be confused with an empty profession of faith/dead faith that remains "alone" barren of works. (James 2:14-26)

That's right, and I agree with you as far as it goes. You added an important qualifier: our faith must be genuine.

The slogan "Faith-Alone", properly understood, is true, but incomplete because Jesus talked about being "born-again" which seems like another, distinct, aspect of Salvation. Would you agree?

 

[Roger316]

'rightly understood' being the key that the theological system you advocate does not have.

Now you have my attention.

 

[mailmandan]

That's right, and I agree with you as far as it goes. You added an important qualifier: our faith must be genuine.

The slogan "Faith-Alone", properly understood, is true, but incomplete because Jesus talked about being "born-again" which seems like another, distinct, aspect of Salvation. Would you agree?

The key is Ephesians 2:5 - even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), through faith, not works (Ephesians 2:8,9) then we become His workmanship created in Christ Jesus unto/for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.

Faith is the root of salvation and good works are the fruit. No fruit at all would demonstrate there is no room. Hence, James 2:14 - says/claims to have faith but has no works. Can that faith save? The answer is no because that is not genuine faith but a bare profession of faith. Hence, incomplete.

 

[studier]

Now you have my attention.

keep watching and pushing re: what Faith is and is not.

being determinstic and monergistic you may agree with him, but it'll be interesting to see you 2 discuss it.

 

[Genez]

And would also mean that salvation isn't completely dependent Jesus Christ (the Savior) and His works, but instead, upon man and his works.

That is where they screw up big time.
They still see themselves as the center of their universe.

(And, they think they are better than you and me)

 

[Genez]

What do your statements have to do with your question? Of course Adam and Eve weren’t Christians, they also weren’t Jews. Judaism didn’t begin till millenniums later. They were the first 2 humans on this planet.

To answer your question regarding Matt. 24:9-13, Jesus was talking to the 11 disciples on the Mount of Olives about what the signs would be before He returns. He was eluding to what future Christians would go through, and warning that we would be hated by the world for His name sake (which is true, we have various levels of persecution, depending on where we live).

His return is at the end of the Tribulation to set up His kingdom on earth.

Go find your kitty litter and drop your post there.

 

[Cameron143]

The key is Ephesians 2:5 - even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), through faith, not works (Ephesians 2:8,9) then we become His workmanship created in Christ Jesus unto/for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.

Faith is the root of salvation and good works are the fruit. No fruit at all would demonstrate there is no room. Hence, James 2:14 - says/claims to have faith but has no works. Can that faith save? The answer is no because that is not genuine faith but a bare profession of faith. Hence, incomplete.

Ephesians 2:5 is too often overlooked. This is regeneration which leads to all that follows.

 

[Roger316]

The key is Ephesians 2:5 - even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), through faith, not works (Ephesians 2:8,9) then we become His workmanship created in Christ Jesus unto/for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.

Faith is the root of salvation and good works are the fruit. No fruit at all would demonstrate there is no room. Hence, James 2:14 - says/claims to have faith but has no works. Can that faith save? The answer is no because that is not genuine faith but a bare profession of faith. Hence, incomplete.

But isn't being born again a qualitatively distinct concept from faith?

 

[JayWalker]

Jesus Christ saves us through faith based on the merits of His finished work of redemption alone (Romans 3:24-26) and not based on the merits of our works. (Romans 4:5-6; Ephesians 2:8,9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9)

Now, tell the rest of the story as brother Paul Harvey used to say!

Mankind is responsible before God for his own actions and man can in fact cause himself to be disqualified if he does not submit himself to the Lord continually abiding IN Christ:

James 1:22
But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.

1 John 1:6
If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the
truth:

John 8:12
Then Jesus spoke to them again, saying, “I am the light of the world. He who follows Me shall
not walk in darkness, but have the light of life.”

John 12:46
I am come a light into the world, that whosoever believeth on me should not abide in
darkness.

John 8:51
Verily, verily, I say unto you, If a man keep my Word, he shall never see death.

Romans 8:14
For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.

1 Corinthians 10:12
Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall.

1 Timothy 6:12
Fight the good fight of faith, lay hold (take possession) on eternal life, whereunto thou art
also called, and hast professed a good profession before many witnesses.