Loss of salvation???

[Cameron143]

HOW does an unbeliever become a believer?

Through faith.

 

[Toknow]

Through faith.

How does one get faith?

 

[Toknow]

So Moses isn't saved? Guess that wasn't him on the mount of transfiguration after all.

Moses lost rewards, not salvation which, is exactly what we say.

i didn't mention salvation.

Here's what I asked:

WHY was Moses not allowed to go into the Promised land?

 

[Mem]

While obedience is often coincident with belief, it does not follow that obedience is synonymous with belief. In the context, God made a promise to be "god" to Israel. What did that mean? For Yahweh to be "god" for Israel, among other things, it meant that he would protect her from her enemies. This promise was tested when God ordered Israel to enter the promised land. They didn't obey God because they didn't believe him. But Israel was without excuse because they witnessed Yahweh defeat the gods of the Egyptians.



Hebrews 3:5-6
Notice that Paul is comparing Moses and Jesus. He says that Moses was faithful in his house as a servant, while Jesus is faithful in his house as a son. This suggests that Jesus has authority over Moses because he holds a higher position, as a Son has a higher rank than a servant in the household.

Speaking in the collective "we", Paul includes himself among those in the household of God. He stands among many people who hold fast to our confidence until the end.

What he doesn't say is that some left the household. Which is what he would need to say in order to support your idea of loss.


And WE will. By definition, those who don't hold fast to the faith are not in the household.

The son has authority over the servant. Yet the son submitted Himself as the servant, but only for such a time to accomplish His purpose. In order to deliver those in bondage, He came as a servant... but there's teachers trying to say that He remains forever in His servitude to Moses.

 

[sawdust]

i didn't mention salvation.

Here's what I asked:

WHY was Moses not allowed to go into the Promised land?

I was talking about salvation so I'm not interested in playing your "change the goal posts" routine.

Your question is irrelevant to the topic.

Can you be both, an unbeliever and a believer, one who is a partaker of Christ and one who is not a partaker of Christ?

How many times can you change from one side to the other throughout life before you become one or the other?

 

[Cameron143]

We both know regen > believe is your presupposition. I saw it in your logic. I see it in this post.

I think you should go back and look at #10,378 & #10,379 one page pack. Simple versions.

If we get stuck in your loop, then an unbeliever doesn't believe, so an unbeliever cannot believe. (solution = regen > believe)

Then we have to deal with you change from cannot to "simply don't."

Can and some do. Jesus' command to unbelievers is not empty.

While what I believe is impacted by the arguments we are going through, I haven't mentioned any theology. What I have done is make an argument employing logic. It is illogical to say that an unbeliever believes. It is logical to say that a believer believes. No one can both believe something and disbelieve that same thing. It's simple logic.

While I do believe that this truth impacts theology, I haven't made any theological statements based on it to this point.

 

[Cameron143]

How does one get faith?

Faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

 

[Toknow]

I was talking about salvation so I'm not interested in playing your "change the goal posts" routine.

Your question is irrelevant to the topic.

Can you be both, an unbeliever and a believer, one who is a partaker of Christ and one who is not a partaker of Christ?

How many times can you change from one side to the other throughout life before you become one or the other?

Here is what you stated in post no. 10, 397 :

"So where does it show, those who fell in the wilderness, were ever a people of faith? I can't see it in all the verses you quote. The Lord says "they always go astray and they don't know His ways". They don't sound like believers in any shape or form or at any time to me.

As far as I am concerned, it is crystal clear that those who belong to Christ are those who endure to the end. Those who do not endure, are not partakers of Christ.

Can you be both? You would have to be based on non-OSAS doctrine."


YOU brought up those in the wilderness.
You asked if they were people of faith.
You said they didn't sound like believers.
You said that those that belong to Christ endure till the end.

So...
I was wondering what YOU thought was the reason WHY the Israelites were not allowed into the Promised Land.

If you think this is "moving the goal posts"
so be it.

 

[Toknow]

Faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

OK
So now I heard the word of God.

Now what?

HOW do I become a believer.....
just be hearing the word of God??

All my friends that attend a Mass or Service hear the word of God every week.
Are they all saved?

 

[Cameron143]

OK
So now I heard the word of God.

Now what?

HOW do I become a believer.....
just be hearing the word of God??

All my friends that attend a Mass or Service hear the word of God every week.
Are they all saved?

Notice that it doesn't say faith comes by hearing the word of God. So it doesn't come by simply audibly hearing scripture. There are 2 things involved:

Faith comes by hearing
Hearing comes by the word of God

In other words:

The word of God produces hearing
Hearing produces faith

Wherever and whenever the above has transpired, salvation is the result.

 

[Toknow]

Notice that it doesn't say faith comes by hearing the word of God. So it doesn't come by simply audibly hearing scripture. There are 2 things involved:

Faith comes by hearing
Hearing comes by the word of God

In other words:

The word of God produces hearing
Hearing produces faith

Wherever and whenever the above has transpired, salvation is the result.

The correct translation is:
Faith comes by hearing the word of God.

Ok
But this doesn't solve the question....
Does everyone that hears the word of God become a believer?

It sounds like you're saying this.

 

[Mem]

Simon, son of Jonah heard right, saying, "You are the Christ, the Son of the living God." And Jesus blessed Him and called him Peter.

And then in the next breath, Peter heard right but got it wrong and Jesus called him Satan and a stumbling block for rebuking Jesus saying, "Far be it from You, LORD...This shall never happen to You!"

It didn't take long for the blessing to go to Peter's head, as it was in his nature.

But then, in the next chapter, Jesus poses a question to Simon again, "From whom do the kings of the earth collect customs and taxes: from their own sons, or from others?"

"From others," Peter answered.

"Then the sons are exempt," Jesus said to him (Matt 17:26).

 

[Cameron143]

The correct translation is:
Faith comes by hearing the word of God.

Ok
But this doesn't solve the question....
Does everyone that hears the word of God become a believer?

It sounds like you're saying this.

No, that's not the correct translation. I gave the correct translation.

I'm certainly not saying that. Don't know how that could ever be the understanding of what I shared.

 

[TruthDefender]

Many of them do get baptized and then claim they will still go to Heaven if they live in sin because they have been baptized.

Some of the Church of Christ people who are big on baptism think this

On repentance many falsely claim that all future sins are already forgiven so they ignore 1 John 1:9 and Proverbs 28:13 and they ignore that God's Word teaches that we reap what we sow (Gal 6:7,8) which is mocking God

Salvation:
Hear
Believe
Repent
Confess
Baptism
Live in Him

 

[sawdust]

Here is what you stated in post no. 10, 397 :

"So where does it show, those who fell in the wilderness, were ever a people of faith? I can't see it in all the verses you quote. The Lord says "they always go astray and they don't know His ways". They don't sound like believers in any shape or form or at any time to me.

As far as I am concerned, it is crystal clear that those who belong to Christ are those who endure to the end. Those who do not endure, are not partakers of Christ.

Can you be both? You would have to be based on non-OSAS doctrine."


YOU brought up those in the wilderness.
You asked if they were people of faith.
You said they didn't sound like believers.
You said that those that belong to Christ endure till the end.

So...
I was wondering what YOU thought was the reason WHY the Israelites were not allowed into the Promised Land.

If you think this is "moving the goal posts"
so be it.

They were unbelievers (still dead in their sin), they never belonged to Him. I thought it was obvious from my statements.

You originally asked about Moses, not the Israelites. If you are viewing entering the promised land equates to salvation then you have a problem because, as you pointed out, Moses didn't enter either and we know He is alive.

I really don't see the point of your question to be honest.

 

[Mem]

I really don't see the point of your question to be honest.

I suspect the intention was a leading for you to answer, 'because he disobeyed' (in striking the rock), but that is arguable since it could well have been that, in doing so he posed the question as, "must WE bring forth water for you?"... We did no such thing, as there was nothing of Moses' power involved.

 

[TruthDefender]

I haven't introduced rebirth or new heart. I'm specifically dealing with faith and obedience. You, not me, equated the two. I personally believe that the acquisition of faith is what leads to obedience. But in equating the two, you have unbelievers believing and obeying.

At what point does an unbeliever become a believer?

What you said is oxymoronic. You are either a believer, or a non-believer; someone who has faith, or someone who doesn’t have faith/ lack of faith.

Answer: When his heart is open to hearing and believing in His word.

 

[Cameron143]

What you said is oxymoronic. You are either a believer, or a non-believer; someone who has faith, or someone who doesn’t have faith/ lack of faith.

Answer: When his heart is open to hearing and believing in His word.

Your response is actually oxymoronic because your conclusion is my point.

When is the heart open to hearing and believing? When was Lydia’s heart open to hearing and believing? On the road to Emmaus, when were Jesus' traveling companions open hearing and believing?

 

[FlyingDove]

Faith is Obedience:

NKJ Hebrews3:16-19 For who were those who heard and yet rebelled? Was it not all those who left Egypt led by Moses? 17 And with whom was he provoked for forty years? Was it not with those who sinned, whose bodies fell in the wilderness? 18 And to whom did he swear that they would not enter his rest, but to those who were disobedient? 19 So we see that they were unable to enter because of unbelief.

• Hebrews says some “rebelled” and “sinned” in the wilderness.
• Hebrews says in parallel that they “did not obey.”
• Hebrews says in parallel that they “did not believe.”
• Therefore, unbelief is rebellion, sin, and disobedience — and therefore belief is obedience.

NKJ John6:27-29 "(Command) Do not labor work for the food which perishes, but (Command to work) for the food which endures to everlasting remains into life without end, which the Son of Man will give to you, because God the Father has set His seal on Him." 28 Then they said to Him, "What shall we do, that we may work the works of God (the works God requires)?" 29 Jesus answered and said to them, "This is the work of God (the work God requires), that you believe in Him whom He sent."

• Jesus commands unbelievers to work for the food that remains.
• Jesus defines that work as believing in the One He sent.
• Therefore, when an unbeliever believes, he is obeying Jesus’ command.
• Therefore, belief is obedience.

NKJ Acts16:30-31 Then he brought them out and said, "Sirs, what must I do to be saved?" 31 And they said, "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household."

• The jailer asks what he must do to be saved.
• The apostles command him to believe in the Lord Jesus Christ.
• Therefore, believing in the Lord Jesus Christ is commanded for salvation.
• Therefore, belief is obedience

NKJ Romans 10:16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, "Lord, who has believed our report?"

• Paul says some people “did not obey the gospel.”
• Paul says in parallel that they “did not believe the gospel.”
• Therefore, not believing the gospel is disobedience.
• Therefore, believing the gospel is obedience.

NKJ 1 John 3:23 And this is His commandment: that we should believe on the name of His Son Jesus Christ and love one another, as He gave us commandment.

• God commands men to believe in the name of His Son Jesus Christ
• God commands belief in Jesus Christ
• When a man believes in Jesus Christ, he is obeying God’s command to believe
• Therefore, belief is obedience

Summary of Faith-Obedience:

1. Belief was obedience for the OC Hebrews - Heb3:16-19
2. Belief is obedience for the unbeliever - John6:27-29; Acts16:31; Rom10:16
3. Belief is obedience for the unbeliever and the believer - 1John3:23

Belief is Obedience

Heb 3 is doing descriptive parallelism, not definitional equivalence. Vs.18: they did not enter because of disobedience. Vs.19: they did not enter because of unbelief. This is the same event described from 2 angles.

Unbelief produced disobedience. Disobedience revealed unbelief. That does not mean: unbelief is disobedience - belief is obedience.

It means: unbelief > disobedience - faith > obedience. Cause > effect. Root > fruit. Source > stream. Parallel descriptions of the same event DO NOT collapse the categories.

Jn 6, Jesus commanding unbelievers to believe DOES NOT redefine belief as obedience. If that were true, then: repentance would be obedience - baptism would be obedience - loving your neighbor would be obedience - trusting God would be obedience & EVERYTHING becomes OBEDIENCE which destroys the distinction the NT repeatedly makes between: faith (receiving) - works/obedience (responding).

Jn 6 simply shows: God commands faith. Faith is the condition for life. Obedience flows from it. A command to believe DOES NOT turn belief into a work.

Acts 16, The jailer asks: What must I do? Paul DOES NOT give him a work. He gives him a GIFT: BELIEVE... & YOU WILL BE SAVED! If belief were obedience, Paul would be giving him work to perform to be saved.
But Paul explicitly denies that in Romans, Galatians, Ephesians, Titus.

Acts 16 shows the opposite of your claim: The jailer wants a work. Paul gives him faith instead & FAITH is just that FAITH, it IS NOT a work, NOT obedience & NOT performance.

Rom 10:16, This verse destroys your entire argument. Paul says: They did not obey the gospel, for... who has believed our report? Paul is not equating the 2. He's explaining the cause of the disobedience. They DID NOT OBEY because they DID NOT BELIEVE! Again: Unbelief > disobedience. NOT: unbelief = disobedience. Paul's own logic contradicts your conclusion.

1 Jn 3:23 John says: God commands belief - God commands love. If your logic were correct: belief = obedience - love = obedience. Therefore faith and love are the same thing. But John treats them as 2 distinct commands. A command does not redefine the nature of the thing commanded. God commands rest - rest IS NOT a work. God commands faith - faith IS NOT obedience. God commands love - love IS NOT faith. Again, Commands do not collapse categories.

Scripture DOES NOT define faith as obedience. It consistently treats faith as the cause & obedience as the effect. God commands faith, but the command does not change the nature of faith. Heb 3, Jn 6, Acts 16, Rom 10 & 1 Jn 3 all show the same pattern: unbelief produces disobedience & faith produces obedience. Keep categories distinct & where did this C&P come from?

 

[NightTwister]

Oh wow, I wasn’t aware that they also ignore repentance. How about baptism? Many people on this platform don’t even believe in water immersion either. Odd, since its Scriptural!

Nothing odd about it.