Yes. But if someone leaves building on that foundation of Christ and is now building on a foundation of atheism, for example, will they be saved as by fire, as if standing on the foundation of Christ?
Loss of salvation???
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And don't for get testifying to others so they can hear about how the Lord has saved and blessed us and then tell them He wants to save and bless them too.
But, if someone is a calvinist then they have to go out and tell people that "well sorry, God decided not to save you so you're going to hell no matter what you do"
I'd sure hate to be on the calvinist witnessing team
Sorry if I misunderstood.
What you originally said is that unbelievers do not believe....ok
but they DO come to believe since we were all unbelievers at one time.
So, what I'm getting at is this: How does the transition happen?
How do we go from being unbelievers to believers?
Paul said that faith comes by hearing the word of God.
IOW,,,we hear the word of God...
we agree with it.
At that point we have completed the obedience of faith...
we have obeyed the gospel message and have believed it.
This belief is the transition...
we were unbelievers before
now we are believers.
I don't see how it could be any other way.
It seems as though you're saying there's another way.
I might have misundestood.
I am sad to say that I believe you're right about the sinning.
Have thought a lot about this and cannot think of any reason why there would be any pushback to a Christian stating that God MUST BE OBEYED.
The reply is often given that the problem is the word MUST.
They say we obey because we want to....that's all very good,,,,the entire concept of the NC is that we have the power to want to obey....but since our free will is not taken away at salvation...we might still want to sin too...
So the word MUST has to remain.
Whether or not we WANT to...
God still demands obedience.
So why would anyone reject that one little word?
Because they must be bothered somehow as to their walk with God.
Maybe they know they're sinning constantly...
maybe they feel they're not "doing" enough.
Doing in quotation marks because none of us does enough...there's always more.
Yes sir.
There has to be a reason that just stating that God must be obeyed has such a resoundingly
negative reply from some.
Oh. And I like this reply:
If we commit just one sin,,,break one commandment...
it's as if we've broken them all.
What that means, I've never been sure of.
Sounds like it's OK to break them all since breaking one is all that is needed. !
It's just very comforting to see members on here that understand what Jesus was teaching and follow
Him instead of trying to reject everything He and the Apostles taught.
Hi TruthDefender
Why do you think we're told to be baptized?
Forgiveness of past sins?
Receiving the Holy Spirit?
Command from Jesus?
What if a person is never baptized??
Post 1 of 2
Are you saying that a person with belief cannot be disobedient?
In the original language of the NT unbelief and disobedience was exactly the same.
To disobey is to not believe...
to not believe is to disobey.
Lexical Summary apeitheó: Disobey, be disobedient, refuse to believe Original Word: ἀπειθέωPart of Speech: Verb Transliteration: apeitheó Pronunciation: ah-pay-THAY-oh Phonetic Spelling: (ap-i-theh'-o) KJV: not believe, disobedient, obey not, unbelieving NASB: disobedient, obey, disbelieved, do not obey Word Origin: [from G545 (ἀπειθής - disobedient)] 1. to disbelieve (wilfully and perversely) Strong's Exhaustive Concordance to disbelieve, disobey From apeithes; to disbelieve (wilfully and perversely) -- not believe, disobedient, obey not, unbelieving. |
The entire NT teachings are about obedience.
Obedience is a response,,,as you've stated.
Do you believe that God does not want this response from those that have faith in Him?
Does faith mean only receiving something?
What does faith mean if not trusting in a person....
learning from them...
doing what they've taught.
Lexical Summary pistis: Faith, belief, trust, confidence, fidelity Original Word: πίστιςPart of Speech: Noun, Feminine Transliteration: pistis Pronunciation: PIS-tis Phonetic Spelling: (pis'-tis) KJV: assurance, belief, believe, faith, fidelity NASB: faith, faithfulness, pledge, proof Word Origin: [from G3982 (πείθω - persuaded)] 1. persuasion, i.e. credence 2. (morally) conviction (of religious truth, or the truthfulness of God or a religious teacher) 3. (especially) reliance upon Christ for salvation 4. (abstractly) constancy in such profession 5. (by extension) the system of religious (Gospel) truth itself Strong's Exhaustive Concordance assurance, belief, believe, faith, fidelity. From peitho; persuasion, i.e. Credence; moral conviction (of religious truth, or the truthfulness of God or a religious teacher), especially reliance upon Christ for salvation; abstractly, constancy in such profession; by extension, the system of religious (Gospel) truth itself -- assurance, belief, believe, faith, fidelity. |
post 2 of 2
Paul clearly taught that faith is NOT a work.
Faith is a gift.
Ephesians 2:8
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;
Faith is by grace and not by works....either of The Law OR good deeds:
Romans 11:6
6 But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace.
If this is what you believe,,,then everything is a work.
Is baptism a work?
If believing a work?
Is loving your neighbor a work?
God does not consider obedience to Him to be this WORK we here on these forums discuss.
God must be obeyed....
if it's a work...so be it....
works are not filthy...they are what God demands from us.
Good deeds are taught by all the writers, to say nothing of the fact that this is all Jesus taught.
2. Disobedience = unbelief.
The two are inexorably intertwined.
1. If a person is an unbeliever,,,he is disobedient to the gospel...you showed this with your very own verse: Romans 10:16
The gospel must be obeyed to become effectual.
2. If a person is a believer but disobeys constantly...he becomes an unbeliever again because he is not following the teachings of jesus.
1 John 3:18.24
18 Little children, let us not love with word or with tongue, but in deed and truth.
19 We will know by this that we are of the truth, and will assure our heart before Him
20 in whatever * * our heart condemns us; for God is greater than our heart and knows all things.
21 Beloved, if our heart does not condemn us, we have confidence before God;
22 and whatever * we ask we receive from Him, because we keep His commandments and do the things that are pleasing in His sight.
23 This is His commandment, that we believe in the name of His Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, just as He commanded * us.
24 The one who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. We know by this that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us.
A person who has FAITH IN JESUS...
will DO as Jesus commanded.
He will practice obedience.
It's obvious on this very thread that some do not obey and yet believe they have faith in God.
Faith and obedience cannot be separated or the teachings of Jesus will fail.
1 Peter 1:4 He is speaking to believers
4As obedient children, do not be conformed to the passions of your former ignorance,
Those with faith must be obedient.
1 John 5:3
3For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments. And his commandments are not burdensome.
That WE keep His commandments.
Unbelievers are not required to obey God.
Believers are required to obey God.
Who said belief is a work but calvinists?
Paul clearly taught that faith is NOT a work.
Faith is a gift.
Ephesians 2:8
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;
Faith is by grace and not by works....either of The Law OR good deeds:
Romans 11:6
6 But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace.
Obedience is not a work.
If this is what you believe,,,then everything is a work.
Is baptism a work?
If believing a work?
Is loving your neighbor a work?
Are we conflating obedience with faith?
God does not consider obedience to Him to be this WORK we here on these forums discuss.
God must be obeyed....
if it's a work...so be it....
works are not filthy...they are what God demands from us.
Good deeds are taught by all the writers, to say nothing of the fact that this is all Jesus taught.
1. Unbelief = disobedience.
2. Disobedience = unbelief.
The two are inexorably intertwined.
1. If a person is an unbeliever,,,he is disobedient to the gospel...you showed this with your very own verse: Romans 10:16
The gospel must be obeyed to become effectual.
2. If a person is a believer but disobeys constantly...he becomes an unbeliever again because he is not following the teachings of jesus.
1 John 3:18.24
18 Little children, let us not love with word or with tongue, but in deed and truth.
19 We will know by this that we are of the truth, and will assure our heart before Him
20 in whatever * * our heart condemns us; for God is greater than our heart and knows all things.
21 Beloved, if our heart does not condemn us, we have confidence before God;
22 and whatever * we ask we receive from Him, because we keep His commandments and do the things that are pleasing in His sight.
23 This is His commandment, that we believe in the name of His Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, just as He commanded * us.
24 The one who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. We know by this that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us.
A person who has FAITH IN JESUS...
will DO as Jesus commanded.
He will practice obedience.
Faith does not always produce obedience.
It's obvious on this very thread that some do not obey and yet believe they have faith in God.
Faith and obedience cannot be separated or the teachings of Jesus will fail.
1 Peter 1:4 He is speaking to believers
4As obedient children, do not be conformed to the passions of your former ignorance,
Those with faith must be obedient.
1 John 5:3
3For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments. And his commandments are not burdensome.
That WE keep His commandments.
Unbelievers are not required to obey God.
Believers are required to obey God.
This is the point of my question:They were unbelievers (still dead in their sin), they never belonged to Him. I thought it was obvious from my statements.
You originally asked about Moses, not the Israelites. If you are viewing entering the promised land equates to salvation then you have a problem because, as you pointed out, Moses didn't enter either and we know He is alive.
I really don't see the point of your question to be honest.
There were believers among the Israelites.
But the reason they did not enter was due to disobedience...
this is clearly stated.
Numbers 14.22-24
22 "Surely all the men who have seen My glory and My signs which I performed in Egypt and in the wilderness, yet have put Me to the test these ten times and have not listened to My voice,
23 shall by no means see the land which I swore to their fathers, nor shall any of those who spurned Me see it.
24 "But My servant Caleb, because he has had a different spirit and has followed Me fully, I will bring into the land which he entered, and his descendants shall take possession of it.
Hebrews 3:18-19
18 And to whom did He swear that they would not enter His rest, but to those who were disobedient?
19 So we see that they were not able to enter because of unbelief.
I wanted to point out, and sorry if this is off-topic (got here late)
that the NT teaches both belief and obedience.
Hebrews states that they did not enter due to:
DISOBEDIENCE
UNBELIEF
Unbelief will always be rejected by God.
But so will disobedience be rejected.
To God one is the same as the other...
as indeed it also is in the original Greek text.
What believers? You even underline the reason for their disobedience was unbelief (v.19) yet you claim there were believers.
Apart from Caleb, I see no evidence for your claim.
And I have not claimed anything other than unbelief means not saved so have no idea why you bring it up.
Its obvious believe and obey are used interchangeable
John 3:36 Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him.
As some posters referenced Heb 3:7-19 which is repeated from Psa 95 clearly shows rebellion, disobedience, unbelief and sin are all used interchangeably.
The bigger picture in my mind is what is the warning about in the NT that left an enter generation out of the promise land or their rest that we are told in the NT not to follow in the same example of disobedience.
Heb 4:11Let us therefore be diligent to enter that rest, lest anyone fall according to the same example of disobedience
So what was the rebellion of the Israelites in the wilderness that cause a whole generation to not enter into their promise land, which was Canaan, the land God promised full of milk and honey if they loved God with all their heart, mind and soul and kept God's commandments that many didn't but instead hardened their heart and rebelled.
Heb 3:7Therefore, as the Holy Spirit says: “Today, if you will hear His voice
8Do not harden your hearts as in the rebellion, In the day of trial in the wilderness
9Where your fathers tested Me, tried Me, And saw My works forty years
10Therefore I was angry with that generation, And said, ‘They always go astray in their heart, And they have not known My ways.’
11So I swore in My wrath, ‘They shall not enter My rest.’ ”
12Beware, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God
13but exhort one another daily, while it is called “Today,” lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin
14For we have become partakers of Christ if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end
15while it is said: “Today, if you will hear His voice, Do not harden your hearts as in the rebellion.”
16For who, having heard, rebelled? Indeed, was it not all who came out of Egypt, led by Moses?
17Now with whom was He angry forty years? Was it not with those who sinned, whose corpses fell in the wilderness?
18And to whom did He swear that they would not enter His rest, but to those who did not obey?
19So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief
Canaan, was a type of heaven and we have still not entered into ours
Rev 22:14Blessed are those who do His commandments, that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter through the gates into the city
So what was the rebellion and disobedience which is unbelief and sin that left an entire generation out of their promised rest that we are told not to follow in their same example of disobedience? Seems like this would be hugely important considering God does not show partiality Rom2:11 and we are told plainly not to follow their same example.
John 3:36 Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him.
As some posters referenced Heb 3:7-19 which is repeated from Psa 95 clearly shows rebellion, disobedience, unbelief and sin are all used interchangeably.
The bigger picture in my mind is what is the warning about in the NT that left an enter generation out of the promise land or their rest that we are told in the NT not to follow in the same example of disobedience.
Heb 4:11Let us therefore be diligent to enter that rest, lest anyone fall according to the same example of disobedience
So what was the rebellion of the Israelites in the wilderness that cause a whole generation to not enter into their promise land, which was Canaan, the land God promised full of milk and honey if they loved God with all their heart, mind and soul and kept God's commandments that many didn't but instead hardened their heart and rebelled.
Heb 3:7Therefore, as the Holy Spirit says: “Today, if you will hear His voice
8Do not harden your hearts as in the rebellion, In the day of trial in the wilderness
9Where your fathers tested Me, tried Me, And saw My works forty years
10Therefore I was angry with that generation, And said, ‘They always go astray in their heart, And they have not known My ways.’
11So I swore in My wrath, ‘They shall not enter My rest.’ ”
12Beware, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God
13but exhort one another daily, while it is called “Today,” lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin
14For we have become partakers of Christ if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end
15while it is said: “Today, if you will hear His voice, Do not harden your hearts as in the rebellion.”
16For who, having heard, rebelled? Indeed, was it not all who came out of Egypt, led by Moses?
17Now with whom was He angry forty years? Was it not with those who sinned, whose corpses fell in the wilderness?
18And to whom did He swear that they would not enter His rest, but to those who did not obey?
19So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief
Canaan, was a type of heaven and we have still not entered into ours
Rev 22:14Blessed are those who do His commandments, that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter through the gates into the city
So what was the rebellion and disobedience which is unbelief and sin that left an entire generation out of their promised rest that we are told not to follow in their same example of disobedience? Seems like this would be hugely important considering God does not show partiality Rom2:11 and we are told plainly not to follow their same example.
There is a lot to this and the more you focus on a study of how all these words like, belief, faith, the faith, faithful, etc. in verbal & noun forms work in Scripture, IMO the more you'll se how translators and thus theology struggles with them.
I can prepare word searches of some of them for you to look through if you'd like - they're too long to post - maybe I can attach as a pdf.
Or we can just start here since you mentioned Rom3:3:
NKJ Romans 3:3 For what if some did not believe? Will their unbelief make the faithfulness of God without effect?
KJV Romans 3:3 For what if some did not believe? shall their unbelief make the faith of God without effect?
- Translators struggle with faithfulness vs. faith. God's faith doesn't make much sense, so they go to faithfulness
Close context:
NKJ Romans 3:1 What advantage then has the Jew, or what is the profit of circumcision? 2 Much in every way! Chiefly because to them were committed the oracles [of] God.
- The Jews were entrusted with God's sayings-logia - or "of" can also be translated as "from" = sayings from God
- entrusted = epi + pisteuō = a compound word intensifying & modifying -pisteuō/believe in the passive
3 For what if some did not believe (apisteō)? Will their unbelief (apistia) make the faithfulness (pistis) of God without effect?
- God entrusted His sayings to the Jews
- What if we assume for the sake of argument/discussion that some [entrusted Jews] did not believe [His sayings]?
- pisteuō = verb; to believe - "a" negates believing
- Will their unbelief...
- pistis = noun; belief - "a" negates belief
- What if they did not believe - will their unbelief
- Straight forward correlation between the verb and the noun
- ...invalidate/make powerless/wipe out the pistis [of] God
- pistis = noun; belief - or what is believed
- Subjective vs. objective meaning
- again, "of" can have several meanings - God's pistis - pistis from God - etc.
- So, is the speaking of:
- God's faithfulness
- or the faith of God
- or the faith from God
- Remember God entrusted them with His sayings
- pistis = noun; belief - or what is believed
4 Certainly/absolutely not! Indeed, let God be true but every man a liar. As it is written: "That You may be justified in Your words, And may overcome when You are judged."
- God's sayings are truth - God is true/truth
- Men who don't believe - those in unbelief - they are the liars
- When God is judged [by unbelieving men in unbelief - liars)
- God will be justified in/by His words-logois (logos plural)
- So, we have:
- The sayings-logia from God
- The pistis/the faith from God = what men believe or reject
- God's words-logois
- 3 ways of saying the same thing
- So, we have:
- God will be justified in/by His words-logois (logos plural)
God gave men His sayings/words = the content of what He wants men to believe [/obey/do].
I'll use another post to look at a verse that uses pistos and some other forms.
Study is necessary and good when our motives are pure. Here is another angle touted by a voice of the past.
The Bane of "Religious Talk"
A. W. Tozer
Now, while we cannot project ourselves backward through time and walk again in Galilee with Christ and His disciples, we can by faith actually experience "the substance of things hoped for"; we can have every sufficient "evidence of things not seen" (Hebrews 11:1, KJV); we can taste "the powers of the coming age" (6:5); we can "know" and "comprehend"; we can have the inner witness, the spiritual illumination that brings out the typography of the kingdom of God as clearly as any earthly landscape is revealed by the rising sun. Then every word will be like a sharp, clear shadow thrown by the objects on the terrain, not to stand in place of reality, but to outline it and set it in relief.
A word is valid only when it refers to some reality in the mind of the user. It must submit to definition as used by the speaker. Its dictionary meaning cannot save it from semantic fraud. It must have a real meaning in its limited context at a given time. By this test an alarmingly great amount of our religious talk is phonetic breath, no more.
The Bane of "Religious Talk"
A. W. Tozer
Now, while we cannot project ourselves backward through time and walk again in Galilee with Christ and His disciples, we can by faith actually experience "the substance of things hoped for"; we can have every sufficient "evidence of things not seen" (Hebrews 11:1, KJV); we can taste "the powers of the coming age" (6:5); we can "know" and "comprehend"; we can have the inner witness, the spiritual illumination that brings out the typography of the kingdom of God as clearly as any earthly landscape is revealed by the rising sun. Then every word will be like a sharp, clear shadow thrown by the objects on the terrain, not to stand in place of reality, but to outline it and set it in relief.
A word is valid only when it refers to some reality in the mind of the user. It must submit to definition as used by the speaker. Its dictionary meaning cannot save it from semantic fraud. It must have a real meaning in its limited context at a given time. By this test an alarmingly great amount of our religious talk is phonetic breath, no more.
Paul did not say faith results from hearing the word of God. If this were the case, everyone who went to church and heard the scripture read would be saved. This is clearly not the case. What he actually wrote is that faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. In other words, the word of God produces hearing...spiritual understanding, and this spiritual understanding produces faith. Salvation is the result of spiritual activity on God's part, akin to God opening Lydia’s heart to attend to the things Paul shared.
I failed to understand how the verses follow the same pattern, have corresponding parts or act as a comparison point-for-point.
If you are saying that obedience logically follows from belief, then I wholeheartedly agree. Obedience is the necessary consequence of genuine belief, given what belief is and what it entails. Not that obedience causes belief, and not that belief and obedience are identical, but that belief—if real—carries obedience within it as its natural outflow.
I may not be clear, but I agree with your overall point. Linguistic parallelism might be absent from the the text (and I could be wrong about that) but Paul is making a strong connection between unbelief and disobedience.
I didn't quite follow your point until I looked at your graphic. I wouldn't necessarily call this parallelism myself, but now that I see your main idea, I completely agree. Let me restate your point as feedback to check if I understand.
These terms—rebellion, sin, disobedience, and unbelief—belong to a single moral constellation, each naming a different facet of the same underlying reality: the rebellious heart. They are not identical, but they overlap so deeply that Scripture often treats them as interchangeable angles on one condition. Rebellion highlights the relational rupture, sin the moral violation, disobedience the refusal of God’s command, and unbelief the inward posture that fuels them all. Taken together, they form a cluster of related concepts orbiting the central truth that the human heart resists God’s authority.
Hopefully, I get what you mean, and if I do, I agree with you.
I think you will find that "unbelief" indicates when a person is rebelliously refusing to accept what he already knows to be true. It's not merely skepticism.
Jesus often accuses people of unbelief when they stubbornly fail to acknowledge the importance and significance of the Miracles. Matthew 13:58 is one of those occasions. We see the same refusal to believe the miracles in Mark 6:6
In Romans 11:25, and Hebrews 3:19 unbelief is associated with hardness of heart.
I agree with you. Paul isn't saying that faith results from hearing the word of God.
Romans 10:16-17
He describes how God sent Isaiah to preach the good news and Isaiah found that his kinsmen didn't believe his report. This seems parallel to Jesus' and Paul's experience who preached the good news to Israel and they didn't believe either of them.
In our passage, Paul uses the term "hearing" to mean two different ideas. In Romans 10, Paul uses the word “hearing” in a way that carries two related nuances. On the one hand, a hearing is an official gathering—a formal assembly convened to receive a message or proclamation. On the other hand, within that gathering the people “hear a report,” meaning they receive the announced word that is being proclaimed. Paul weaves these senses together so that “hearing” refers both to the event in which the message is delivered and to the actual reception of the report itself.
To make this clear, I will paraphrase verse 17, "Just as one ought to believe a prophet such as Isaiah after he gives his report, one ought to believe Paul after he gives his report about Jesus Christ.
If Unbelief is a form of rebellion, and we agree that it is, then what can we say about the moment when a person decides to believe?
And of course if a person still wants to sin they are yet carnal and their mind has not been renewed.
1 Peter 1:22 tells us our soul is purified by obeying the truth
John 17:17
Sanctify them through Thy Truth: Thy word is Truth.
Here's a couple of related scriptures not mentioned often:
1 Peter 3:21
The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:
Hebrews 10:22
Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water.
And yet walking in faith is a work.
It's one of the good works God has ordained that we walk in:
Ephesians 2:10
For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
The Lord says the following thru the Apostle James:
James 2:24
Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
James 2:20
But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
Apparently one is justified by faith AND by works.... and the man that believes justification is by faith only is a "vain" man.
Sounds like either Jesus is wrong or the so called reformers are wrong since they teach an partial truth and leave the part out about works leaving the door open to sinful living (license to sin).
Yes, as if saved by fire:
2 Timothy 2:11-13
11 It is a faithful saying: For if we be dead with him, we shall also live with him:
12 If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us:
13 If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself.
Some eisegetically transplant/inject "salvation" into that denial of Christ, presuming they have license to do so on whatever basis they point out as being their justification for such an interpretation.
What they fail to realize is that Holy Spirit, having been given as "earnest" for salvation once given, they therefore ignore what Paul said in the above quote in that it would be Christ denying even Himself on the basis of forfeiting Holy Spirit, which is absolutely not ever going to happen.
2 Corinthians 1:22
Who hath also sealed us, and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts.
Where it may seem counterintuitive that one could trapse into the arena of disbelief at a later time after salvation and still be saved, to say that Christ then forfeits Holy Spirit leading to self-denial...no. That one can be saved as if by fire after having sinned by whatever means, be it even denial, they are then building with hay, wood and stubble that will indeed burn. That some will show up in Heaven with absolutely no other reward, that will also be a form of suffering in Heaven:
1 Corinthians 3:15
If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.
Suffering, even in Heaven, will therefore indeed be a reality for some as a price to pay for disloyalties through sin, even to the extent of "atheism," that seems to trigger doctrinal aneurisms for some out there who try promoting themselves as authorities over the word of God to the extent of adding whatever whim they feel license to add therein.
That some find it so hard to believe one can still be saved in disbelief after initial salvation, that seems to speak of a personal problem, perhaps pride and/or some other insidious flaw in character and/or beliefs; perhaps rooted in some warped, works-based system of supposed salvation some religions and groupings tend to gravitate into with appeals to the Law and/or misguided hermeneutics that are failures to rightly divide the word of truth.
MM
Everyone that goes to church DOES hear the scriptures.
But a person must BELIEVE the scriptures....he must obey and believe the gospel in order to be saved.
Who said that ONLY hearing the word will save anyone?
The word of God produces hearing?
Spiritual understanding?
This means that everyone that hears the word of God will be saved...
just as you've rejected just above.
(and which should be rejected)
Is God the only agent taking part in salvation?
Does the person have to accept the word of God?
Lydia was already saved.
What Lydia accepted was THE FAITH.
She already had faith.
Anyone that worships God has faith in Him.
Acts 16:14-15
First Convert in Europe
14 A woman named Lydia, from the city of Thyatira, a seller of purple fabrics, a worshiper of God, was listening; and the Lord opened her heart to respond to the things spoken by Paul.15 And when she and her household had been baptized, she urged us, saying, "If you have judged me to be faithful to the Lord, come into my house and stay." And she prevailed upon us.