Loss of salvation???

[Toknow]

If Unbelief is a form of rebellion, and we agree that it is, then what can we say about the moment when a person decides to believe?

Unbelief is rebellion?
This can be true.

But how would it be rebellion for someone that thinks God does not even exist?
How does one rebel against an entity they don't believe in?


1 Samuel 12:14
14If you will fear the Lord and serve him and obey his voice and not rebel against the commandment of the Lord,


Isaiah 63:10
10But they rebelled and grieved his Holy Spirit;


There are many verses about rebelling in the OT...
this is because they (people of different periods of time) believed in God but rebelled against Him.

 

[Roger316]

Unbelief is rebellion?
This can be true.

But how would it be rebellion for someone that thinks God does not even exist?
How does one rebel against an entity they don't believe in?


1 Samuel 12:14
14If you will fear the Lord and serve him and obey his voice and not rebel against the commandment of the Lord,


Isaiah 63:10
10But they rebelled and grieved his Holy Spirit;


There are many verses about rebelling in the OT...
this is because they (people of different periods of time) believed in God but rebelled against Him.

Right, not all rebellion is due to unbelief.

 

[Cameron143]

Everyone that goes to church DOES hear the scriptures.
But a person must BELIEVE the scriptures....he must obey and believe the gospel in order to be saved.

Who said that ONLY hearing the word will save anyone?


The word of God produces hearing?
Spiritual understanding?

This means that everyone that hears the word of God will be saved...
just as you've rejected just above.

(and which should be rejected)


Is God the only agent taking part in salvation?
Does the person have to accept the word of God?

Lydia was already saved.
What Lydia accepted was THE FAITH.
She already had faith.
Anyone that worships God has faith in Him.


Acts 16:14-15

First Convert in Europe​

14 A woman named Lydia, from the city of Thyatira, a seller of purple fabrics, a worshiper of God, was listening; and the Lord opened her heart to respond to the things spoken by Paul.

15 And when she and her household had been baptized, she urged us, saying, "If you have judged me to be faithful to the Lord, come into my house and stay." And she prevailed upon us.

We're on different wavelengths. Appreciate the discussion.

Grace and peace.

 

[Toknow]

And of course if a person still wants to sin they are yet carnal and their mind has not been renewed.

1 Peter 1:22 tells us our soul is purified by obeying the truth

John 17:17
Sanctify them through Thy Truth: Thy word is Truth.

Agreed.

Here's a couple of related scriptures not mentioned often:

1 Peter 3:21
The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

Hebrews 10:22
Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water.

Actually, those verses are very common when discussing baptism.
Always looking for something new ....
it might not exist (re baptism).

And yet walking in faith is a work.

How can you believe this when Paul makes a point of the fact that it is not.
Eph 2:8 clearly states it is a gift.


Romans 4:4-5
4 Now to the one who works, his wage is not credited as a favor, but as what is due.
5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness,


We do not work for our salvation.
It is our faith that saves us,,,,
Our believing in God is what saves us.
This is what Paul taught.

Works will not save, so that no one may boast.

Ephesians 2:8 mentions 3 items necessary for salvation...all three are a gift:

GOD'S GRACE
FAITH
SALVATION

It's one of the good works God has ordained that we walk in:

Ephesians 2:10
For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

Our entire life should be considered to be a good work for God.
God has ordained these good works for us to do when He planned to send Jesus to show us how to make a better world right here, right now.

We are ordered to walk in these GOOD WORKS...
it does not mean that faith is a work.

We must have faith first before our good works are even counted as meritorious.

The Lord says the following thru the Apostle James:

James 2:24
Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

Correct.
AFTER we're saved....then our works ALSO justify us because we are obeying Jesus and what He taught.
He taught us to do good works for the Kingdom of God.

But faith comes first...and then good works/deeds.

James 2:20
But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

Agreed. It's written so it's true.
Some try to explain this away and reject what James is clearly stating...
but he is only agreeing with Jesus and Paul and the other writers.

Apparently one is justified by faith AND by works.... and the man that believes justification is by faith only is a "vain" man.

Faith alone come from the reformation and calvinism.
Faith alone was never taught in the church and is a heretical teaching.

Sounds like either Jesus is wrong or the so called reformers are wrong since they teach an partial truth and leave the part out about works leaving the door open to sinful living (license to sin).

Jesus is never wrong.

 

[Toknow]

We're on different wavelengths. Appreciate the discussion.

Grace and peace.

I noticed.

The way you post makes it seem that everyone who hears the word of God will be saved.

Also, you mentioned something about the word allowing/making one hear...
I believe you said in a spiritual way.

Either way...your statement is stating that everyone who hears the word will be saved.

Grace and peace to you too.

 

[TruthDefender]

Your response is actually oxymoronic because your conclusion is my point.

When is the heart open to hearing and believing? When was Lydia’s heart open to hearing and believing? On the road to Emmaus, when were Jesus' traveling companions open hearing and believing?

Do you not believe that He chose them, because He knew their hearts, even that Judas I. was a devil?

He opened Lydia’s heart to heed:

“Now a certain woman named Lydia heard us. She was a seller of purple from the city of Thyatira, who worshiped God. The Lord opened her heart to heed the things spoken by Paul.”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭16‬:‭14‬ ‭NKJV‬‬

 

[studier]

it seems to me that UNBELIEF is used for those that do not believe in God at all.
They are atheists in nature.

UNFAITHFUL is used for believers that have failed in their mission, or returned to unbelief (Romans 3:3)
or are believers that require a warning...like not being friendly with the world (James 4:4)


Please comment.

I originally said this:

NKJ Titus1:15-16 To the pure all things are pure, but to those who are defiled and unbelieving (apistos - unfaithful) nothing is pure; but even their mind and conscience are defiled. 16 They profess (homologeó) to know God, but in works they deny (same word as 2Tim2:12-13; Matt10:33) Him, being abominable (repugnant, detestable, disgusting), disobedient, and disqualified (worthless) for every good work.

As I look at these verses again, I'm reminded of just how informative and intense they are. I've elaborated just a bit.

I don't know why much of lexical work says apistos means unbelieving. pistos means faithful. apistos is negating faithful, so 'not faithful' - 'unfaithful'

I'm not seeing any strong reason to be translating apistos as unbelieving. There is overlap but I think the ultimate issue is being faithful.

If no comment, then I'm just seeing it as self-explanatory

NKJ Titus 1:6 if a man is blameless, the husband of one wife, having faithful (adj - pistos) children not accused of dissipation/ reckless abandon/debauchery or insubordination insubordinate/rebellious/disobedient [children].

• The last word here is an adjective which seems to be describing 'faithful (adj) children' from the negative descriptive.

NKJ Titus 1:9 holding fast the faithful (adj - pistos) word as he has been taught, that he may be able, by sound doctrine, both to exhort and convict those who contradict.

NKJ Titus 3:8 This is a faithful (adj - pistos) saying, and these things I want you to affirm constantly, that those who have believed in God should be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable to men.

So, back to my comment re: apistos here:

NKJ Titus1:15-16 To the pure all things are pure, but to those who are defiled (perfect tense participle) and unbelieving (apistos - unfaithful) nothing is pure; but even their mind and conscience are defiled. 16 They profess (homologeó) to know God, but in works they deny (same word as 2Tim2:12-13; Matt10:33) Him, being abominable (repugnant, detestable, disgusting), disobedient, and disqualified (worthless) for every good work.

• I don't think Paul is saying unbelieving with apistos.
• From all the work showing how faith/belief is parallel with obedience - I see the sense of unbelief in his mention of "disobedient"
• There is some interesting mixture of verb, adjectives, participle going on here:
  • Perfect tense participle (adjectival) - Whatever happened sometime in the past to these men - their current state was being defiled men (compared to clean men).
  • These same currently defiled men are described as unfaithful men (adjective)
  • It now switches to a singular - the mind & the conscience of them has been/is defiled.
    • This is probably saying the same thing happened to all of them
  • It now switches to what they're doing in this defiled and unfaithful state - they are confessing/professing to know God - and in works they are denying/repudiating
    • My Note: we might consider those who say good works are not a must for Christians
  • It now switches to describing them by their actions - they're being disgusting men, disobedient men, worthless men pros every good work
    • My Note: we seem to spend a lot of time debating 'work' vs. 'works' - but Paul has used both here

Here's my observations/thoughts:

• Paul is speaking about faithfulness
• Something has taken place for them to become or remain unfaithful
• Their singular mind and conscience have become and are now defiled
• They are professing to know God
  • I'd suggest they are professing belief in God
• They are denying/repudiating [God] in/by works
• They're being disgusting, disobedient and worthless men toward every good work
  • Since there is so much Scripture that show faith & obedience are parallel - I think it's legitimate that they're being disobedient/unbelieving
• As I look through Scripture and the way it uses pistos & apistos - I see what looks like faith-obedience becoming faithfulness
  • I don't think they're parallel like I see faith/obedience
  • Here, with Paul saying they're defiled & unfaithful - they can only be functioning in disobedience/unbelief because belief/obedience > faithful.
  • IOW:
    • Something took place > they are now defiled & unfaithful men < they're being hypocrites (professing & denying), being disgusting men, being disobedient[/unbelieving] men, they being worthless men for any good work
    • The central focus is their current unfaithful state
    • It's bracketed by something that happened to defile them & by what they're currently doing that shows their unfaithfulness

As offered before, I have all the verses compiled that use pistos, apistos, apistia. It's just under 100 verses and 7 pages with a few notes, if you'd like me to try to pdf a copy.

One note here in the context of this thread; It's not good to put it mildly to be siding with anything that rejects the necessity of believers being obedient, doing good works, being faithful to God.

 

[studier]

Can you be both, an unbeliever and a believer, one who is a partaker of Christ and one who is not a partaker of Christ?

It's an interesting question that a pretty detailed book written about by a man in the Free-Grace Dispensational camp.

 

[Cameron143]

Do you not believe that He chose them, because He knew their hearts, even that Judas I. was a devil?

He opened Lydia’s heart to heed:

“Now a certain woman named Lydia heard us. She was a seller of purple from the city of Thyatira, who worshiped God. The Lord opened her heart to heed the things spoken by Paul.”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭16‬:‭14‬ ‭NKJV‬‬

No, I don't believe God chooses based on what is true of individuals, but chooses sovereignly according to His purposes. God is no respecter of people.

Lots of people went to church today to worship. I don't believe all of them are saved. They will, however, become saved if God attends to them at a heart level.

According to Isaiah 55:11, God's word when sent forth always accomplishes God's purposes. Since the sending forth of God's word doesn't always accomplish salvation, God has a broader purpose in sending forth His word than simply salvation. And while God employs human agency in fulfilling His purposes, human agency is never required for the fulfillment of His purposes. We are blessed when He does use us thusly.

 

[Toknow]

I originally said this:

I'm not seeing any strong reason to be translating apistos as unbelieving. There is overlap but I think the ultimate issue is being faithful.

If no comment, then I'm just seeing it as self-explanatory

NKJ Titus 1:6 if a man is blameless, the husband of one wife, having faithful (adj - pistos) children not accused of dissipation/ reckless abandon/debauchery or insubordination insubordinate/rebellious/disobedient [children].

• The last word here is an adjective which seems to be describing 'faithful (adj) children' from the negative descriptive.

NKJ Titus 1:9 holding fast the faithful (adj - pistos) word as he has been taught, that he may be able, by sound doctrine, both to exhort and convict those who contradict.

NKJ Titus 3:8 This is a faithful (adj - pistos) saying, and these things I want you to affirm constantly, that those who have believed in God should be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable to men.

So, back to my comment re: apistos here:

NKJ Titus1:15-16 To the pure all things are pure, but to those who are defiled (perfect tense participle) and unbelieving (apistos - unfaithful) nothing is pure; but even their mind and conscience are defiled. 16 They profess (homologeó) to know God, but in works they deny (same word as 2Tim2:12-13; Matt10:33) Him, being abominable (repugnant, detestable, disgusting), disobedient, and disqualified (worthless) for every good work.

• I don't think Paul is saying unbelieving with apistos.
• From all the work showing how faith/belief is parallel with obedience - I see the sense of unbelief in his mention of "disobedient"
• There is some interesting mixture of verb, adjectives, participle going on here:
  • Perfect tense participle (adjectival) - Whatever happened sometime in the past to these men - their current state was being defiled men (compared to clean men).
  • These same currently defiled men are described as unfaithful men (adjective)
  • It now switches to a singular - the mind & the conscienceof them has been/is defiled.
    • This is probably saying the same thing happened to all of them
  • It now switches to what they're doing in this defiled and unfaithful state - they are confessing/professing to know God - and in works they are denying/repudiating
    • My Note: we might consider those who say good works are not a must for Christians
  • It now switches to describing them by their actions - they're being disgusting men, disobedient men, worthless men pros every good work
    • My Note: we seem to spend a lot of time debating 'work' vs. 'works' - but Paul has used both here

Here's my observations/thoughts:

• Paul is speaking about faithfulness
• Something has taken place for them to become or remain unfaithful
• Their singular mind and conscience have become and are now defiled
• They are professing to know God
  • I'd suggest they are professing belief in God
• They are denying/repudiating [God] in/by works
• They're being disgusting, disobedient and worthless men toward every good work
  • Since there is so much Scripture that show faith & obedience are parallel - I think it's legitimate that they're being disobedient/unbelieving
• As I look through Scripture and the way it uses pistos & apistos - I see what looks like faith-obedience becoming faithfulness
  • I don't think they're parallel like I see faith/obedience
  • Here, with Paul saying they're defiled & unfaithful - they can only be functioning in disobedience/unbelief because belief/obedience > faithful.
  • IOW:
    • Something took place > they are now defiled & unfaithful men < they're being hypocrites (professing & denying), being disgusting men, being disobedient[/unbelieving] men, they being worthless men for any good work
    • The central focus is their current unfaithful state
    • It's bracketed by something that happened to defile them & by what they're currently doing that shows their unfaithfulness

As offered before, I have all the verses compiled that use pistos, apistos, apistia. It's just under 100 verses and 7 pages with a few notes, if you'd like me to try to pdf a copy.

One note here in the context of this thread; It's not good to put it mildly to be siding with anything that rejects the necessity of believers being obedient, doing good works, being faithful to God.

There's a lot in your post.
Going through each word would be the right way to go.

 

[Cameron143]

No, I don't believe God chooses based on what is true of individuals, but chooses sovereignly according to His purposes. God is no respecter of people.

Lots of people went to church today to worship. I don't believe all of them are saved. They will, however, become saved if God attends to them at a heart level.

According to Isaiah 55:11, God's word when sent forth always accomplishes God's purposes. Since the sending forth of God's word doesn't always accomplish salvation, God has a broader purpose in sending forth His word than simply salvation. And while God employs human agency in fulfilling His purposes, human agency is never required for the fulfillment of His purposes. We are blessed when He does use us thusly.

In the case of Lydia specifically, the opening of her heart to heed is an individual fulfillment of Ezekiel 36:26-27. He opened her heart and this led her to heed. The promise of the new covenant is a new heart that causes one to walk in obedience.

 

[studier]

While what I believe is impacted by the arguments we are going through, I haven't mentioned any theology. What I have done is make an argument employing logic. It is illogical to say that an unbeliever believes. It is logical to say that a believer believes. No one can both believe something and disbelieve that same thing. It's simple logic.

While I do believe that this truth impacts theology, I haven't made any theological statements based on it to this point.

You think your theology has not affected what you're saying and did not affect your logic, but it has and it did and it is still doing so.

Some of us like @JayWalker and I answered your question earlier by identifying the transition point.

Speaking for myself, I don't need or accept your obvious theology that God needs to make an unbeliever a believer before he can believe. In fact, I think it's absurd theology.

I'm all done with this for the time being.

 

[studier]

There's a lot in your post.
Going through each word would be the right way to go.

Sorry to be wordy, but there's a method to the madness.
If it works better, takes small bites and ask any questions or make any comments along the process.

 

[Toknow]

I originally said this:

I'm not seeing any strong reason to be translating apistos as unbelieving. There is overlap but I think the ultimate issue is being faithful.

If no comment, then I'm just seeing it as self-explanatory

NKJ Titus 1:6 if a man is blameless, the husband of one wife, having faithful (adj - pistos) children not accused of dissipation/ reckless abandon/debauchery or insubordination insubordinate/rebellious/disobedient [children].

• The last word here is an adjective which seems to be describing 'faithful (adj) children' from the negative descriptive.

NKJ Titus 1:9 holding fast the faithful (adj - pistos) word as he has been taught, that he may be able, by sound doctrine, both to exhort and convict those who contradict.

NKJ Titus 3:8 This is a faithful (adj - pistos) saying, and these things I want you to affirm constantly, that those who have believed in God should be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable to men.

So, back to my comment re: apistos here:

NKJ Titus1:15-16 To the pure all things are pure, but to those who are defiled (perfect tense participle) and unbelieving (apistos - unfaithful) nothing is pure; but even their mind and conscience are defiled. 16 They profess (homologeó) to know God, but in works they deny (same word as 2Tim2:12-13; Matt10:33) Him, being abominable (repugnant, detestable, disgusting), disobedient, and disqualified (worthless) for every good work.

• I don't think Paul is saying unbelieving with apistos.
• From all the work showing how faith/belief is parallel with obedience - I see the sense of unbelief in his mention of "disobedient"
• There is some interesting mixture of verb, adjectives, participle going on here:
  • Perfect tense participle (adjectival) - Whatever happened sometime in the past to these men - their current state was being defiled men (compared to clean men).
  • These same currently defiled men are described as unfaithful men (adjective)
  • It now switches to a singular - the mind & the conscienceof them has been/is defiled.
    • This is probably saying the same thing happened to all of them
  • It now switches to what they're doing in this defiled and unfaithful state - they are confessing/professing to know God - and in works they are denying/repudiating
    • My Note: we might consider those who say good works are not a must for Christians
  • It now switches to describing them by their actions - they're being disgusting men, disobedient men, worthless men pros every good work
    • My Note: we seem to spend a lot of time debating 'work' vs. 'works' - but Paul has used both here

Here's my observations/thoughts:

• Paul is speaking about faithfulness
• Something has taken place for them to become or remain unfaithful
• Their singular mind and conscience have become and are now defiled
• They are professing to know God
  • I'd suggest they are professing belief in God
• They are denying/repudiating [God] in/by works
• They're being disgusting, disobedient and worthless men toward every good work
  • Since there is so much Scripture that show faith & obedience are parallel - I think it's legitimate that they're being disobedient/unbelieving
• As I look through Scripture and the way it uses pistos & apistos - I see what looks like faith-obedience becoming faithfulness
  
  • I don't think they're parallel like I see faith/obedience
  • Here, with Paul saying they're defiled & unfaithful - they can only be functioning in disobedience/unbelief because belief/obedience > faithful.
  • IOW:
    • Something took place > they are now defiled & unfaithful men < they're being hypocrites (professing & denying), being disgusting men, being disobedient[/unbelieving] men, they being worthless men for any good work
    • The central focus is their current unfaithful state
    • It's bracketed by something that happened to defile them & by what they're currently doing that shows their unfaithfulness

As offered before, I have all the verses compiled that use pistos, apistos, apistia. It's just under 100 verses and 7 pages with a few notes, if you'd like me to try to pdf a copy.

One note here in the context of this thread; It's not good to put it mildly to be siding with anything that rejects the necessity of believers being obedient, doing good works, being faithful to God.

Just caught this....you said:

As I look through Scripture and the way it uses pistos & apistos - I see what looks like faith-obedience becoming faithfulness

• I don't think they're parallel like I see faith/obedience

Faith-obedience is faithfulness.
If we obey, we are being faithful to our believing.
Agreed.

 

[Toknow]

Sorry to be wordy, but there's a method to the madness.
If it works better, takes small bites and ask any questions or make any comments along the process.

Just need the time.
Will Pm email.

 

[JohnDB]

Jesus told the parable of soils.
It answers this question....and the one about chosen vx called. Because these are both covering the same subject.


How can I go beyond what Jesus said?

Why would someone else wish to go beyond what Jesus said?

 

[FlyingDove]

Post 1 of 2



Are you saying that a person with belief cannot be disobedient?

In the original language of the NT unbelief and disobedience was exactly the same.
To disobey is to not believe...
to not believe is to disobey.

​

◄ 544. apeitheó ►​

​

​

​

Lexical Summary apeitheó: Disobey, be disobedient, refuse to believe Original Word: ἀπειθέω Part of Speech: Verb Transliteration: apeitheó Pronunciation: ah-pay-THAY-oh Phonetic Spelling: (ap-i-theh'-o) KJV: not believe, disobedient, obey not, unbelieving NASB: disobedient, obey, disbelieved, do not obey Word Origin: [from G545 (ἀπειθής - disobedient)] 1. to disbelieve (wilfully and perversely) Strong's Exhaustive Concordance to disbelieve, disobey From apeithes; to disbelieve (wilfully and perversely) -- not believe, disobedient, obey not, unbelieving.​

​

The entire NT teachings are about obedience.
Obedience is a response,,,as you've stated.

Do you believe that God does not want this response from those that have faith in Him?

Does faith mean only receiving something?
What does faith mean if not trusting in a person....
learning from them...
doing what they've taught.

​

◄ 4102. pistis ►​

​

​

​

Lexical Summary pistis: Faith, belief, trust, confidence, fidelity Original Word: πίστις Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine Transliteration: pistis Pronunciation: PIS-tis Phonetic Spelling: (pis'-tis) KJV: assurance, belief, believe, faith, fidelity NASB: faith, faithfulness, pledge, proof Word Origin: [from G3982 (πείθω - persuaded)] 1. persuasion, i.e. credence 2. (morally) conviction (of religious truth, or the truthfulness of God or a religious teacher) 3. (especially) reliance upon Christ for salvation 4. (abstractly) constancy in such profession 5. (by extension) the system of religious (Gospel) truth itself Strong's Exhaustive Concordance assurance, belief, believe, faith, fidelity. From peitho; persuasion, i.e. Credence; moral conviction (of religious truth, or the truthfulness of God or a religious teacher), especially reliance upon Christ for salvation; abstractly, constancy in such profession; by extension, the system of religious (Gospel) truth itself -- assurance, belief, believe, faith, fidelity.​

​

Faith produces obedience, obedience does not produce faith. Scripture keeps the order & so do I.

Justification: At the moment of conversion, God the Father issues a legal verdict: the sinner is declared righteous solely through faith in Christ & His sin atoning death & resurrection. At that same moment, Jesus baptizes the believer with the Holy Spirit, marking them as His own. This verdict changes the believer's status before God, not their internal moral condition. In that instant, once for all, their sins (Past-Present-Future) are forgiven & imputed to Christ & His righteousness is imputed to them (Rom 4, Lev 23, 2 Cor 5).

Sanctification: At the same moment as justification, the Holy Spirit indwells the believer & sets them apart for a lifelong work of moral & spiritual transformation. From that point forward, He breaks sin's dominion & progressively conforms the believer to Christ. This is the Spirit‑driven mission of revealing & serving Christ throughout life.

Glorification: At Christ's return, believers receive imperishable, resurrected bodies (1 Cor 15; 1 Thess 4:16–17).

Together: Justification (past), Sanctification (present) & Glorification (future) make up the full scope of Salvation.

 

[Toknow]

Jesus told the parable of soils.
It answers this question....and the one about chosen vx called. Because these are both covering the same subject.


How can I go beyond what Jesus said?

Why would someone else wish to go beyond what Jesus said?

Not only do we go beyond what Jesus said...
we like to change what He said to suit our own needs or beliefs.

Would you care to expound?

 

[sawdust]

It's an interesting question that a pretty detailed book written about by a man in the Free-Grace Dispensational camp.

Which means what exactly?

 

[Toknow]

Faith produces obedience, obedience does not produce faith. Scripture keeps the order & so do I.

Justification: At the moment of conversion, God the Father issues a legal verdict: the sinner is declared righteous solely through faith in Christ & His sin atoning death & resurrection. At that same moment, Jesus baptizes the believer with the Holy Spirit, marking them as His own. This verdict changes the believer's status before God, not their internal moral condition. In that instant, once for all, their sins (Past-Present-Future) are forgiven & imputed to Christ & His righteousness is imputed to them (Rom 4, Lev 23, 2 Cor 5).

Sanctification: At the same moment as justification, the Holy Spirit indwells the believer & sets them apart for a lifelong work of moral & spiritual transformation. From that point forward, He breaks sin's dominion & progressively conforms the believer to Christ. This is the Spirit‑driven mission of revealing & serving Christ throughout life.

Glorification: At Christ's return, believers receive imperishable, resurrected bodies (1 Cor 15; 1 Thess 4:16–17).

Together: Justification (past), Sanctification (present) & Glorification (future) make up the full scope of Salvation.

I agree.

So,,, since we agree,
are you comfortable stating that we must obey God after we're saved?

Or does that go too far for you?

Do you think God requires obedience or do you think He just suggests it?

You did make several statements that are confusing....if you care to clarify:

You said that faith produces obedience.
THEN
you said that the verdict at justificaiton changes the believer's status before God but not their internal moral condition.
THEN
you said the Holy Spirit indwells the believer & sets them apart for a lifelong work of moral & spiritual transformation.


So, if I've understood:
We are saved at justification
but then we do have to move on to sanctification.
As an end result the internal moral condition must be changed/there must be a transformation.

Since this thread is about loss of salvation...
would you say that this transformation must take place?
What if it does NOT?

If the person does not act on the words of Jesus...
and the winds come...
does his house fall?

Matthew 7:26-27
26 "Everyone who hears these words of Mine and does not act on them, will be like a foolish man who built his house on the sand.
27 "The rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and slammed against that house; and it fell -and great was its fall."