Loss of salvation???

[studier]

Just caught this....you said:

As I look through Scripture and the way it uses pistos & apistos - I see what looks like faith-obedience becoming faithfulness

• I don't think they're parallel like I see faith/obedience

Faith-obedience is faithfulness.
If we obey, we are being faithful to our believing.
Agreed.

Agreed that there is overlap, but I'm thinking faithfulness is mostly developed by functioning in faith-obedience.

In this thinking, for example, Paul bookends Romans with his mission to bring the nations to faith-obedience (Rom1:5; Rom16:26) and he states how Christ accomplished through him for obedience of Gentiles in word and work (Rom15:18).

He interestingly as far as I've seen doesn't bring up faithfulness which he easily could have in light of this bookended faith-obedience.

When I think through the faith-obedience it logically seems to end up in faithfulness but I like to see the actual connections in the Text and am cautious when it's not used. It may well be connected via other writings. It's been quite a while since I looked at all of this.

 

[studier]

Which means what exactly?

It means that a believer may or may not be a partaker in Hebrews.

 

[studier]

Faith produces obedience, obedience does not produce faith. Scripture keeps the order & so do I.

Love these catch-all opinions with no Scriptural proof.

 

[TruthDefender]

And don't for get testifying to others so they can hear about how the Lord has saved and blessed us and then tell them He wants to save and bless them too.

But, if someone is a calvinist then they have to go out and tell people that "well sorry, God decided not to save you so you're going to hell no matter what you do"

I'd sure hate to be on the calvinist witnessing team

With all joking aside, the testifying part is you living a life in Christ; your example to others, your speech should portray you as a follower of Christ. You become a breath of fresh air to others…..

 

[TruthDefender]

Everyone that goes to church DOES hear the scriptures.
But a person must BELIEVE the scriptures....he must obey and believe the gospel in order to be saved.

Who said that ONLY hearing the word will save anyone?


The word of God produces hearing?
Spiritual understanding?

This means that everyone that hears the word of God will be saved...
just as you've rejected just above.

(and which should be rejected)


Is God the only agent taking part in salvation?
Does the person have to accept the word of God?

Lydia was already saved.
What Lydia accepted was THE FAITH.
She already had faith.
Anyone that worships God has faith in Him.


Acts 16:14-15

First Convert in Europe​

14 A woman named Lydia, from the city of Thyatira, a seller of purple fabrics, a worshiper of God, was listening; and the Lord opened her heart to respond to the things spoken by Paul.

15 And when she and her household had been baptized, she urged us, saying, "If you have judged me to be faithful to the Lord, come into my house and stay." And she prevailed upon us.

FYI:
Turkey/ Anatolia is not really considered Europe.

 

[TruthDefender]

Everyone that goes to church DOES hear the scriptures.
But a person must BELIEVE the scriptures....he must obey and believe the gospel in order to be saved.

Who said that ONLY hearing the word will save anyone?


The word of God produces hearing?
Spiritual understanding?

This means that everyone that hears the word of God will be saved...
just as you've rejected just above.

(and which should be rejected)


Is God the only agent taking part in salvation?
Does the person have to accept the word of God?

Lydia was already saved.
What Lydia accepted was THE FAITH.
She already had faith.
Anyone that worships God has faith in Him.


Acts 16:14-15

First Convert in Europe​

14 A woman named Lydia, from the city of Thyatira, a seller of purple fabrics, a worshiper of God, was listening; and the Lord opened her heart to respond to the things spoken by Paul.

15 And when she and her household had been baptized, she urged us, saying, "If you have judged me to be faithful to the Lord, come into my house and stay." And she prevailed upon us.

But not everyone hears the word, even though they’re there physically. Think back in school, when you were sitting in a boring class, you missed half of what the teacher was lecturing on, because your mind or heart wasn’t into hearing it.

“So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭10‬:‭17‬ ‭NKJV‬‬

 

[FlyingDove]

Love these catch-all opinions with no Scriptural proof.

Rom 1:5 "Through him we received grace" & apostleship "to call all the Gentiles to the obedience" "that comes from faith" for his name’s sake
(NOTE: Obedience flows from Faith)

Rom 16:26 Now revealed & made known through the prophetic writings by the command of the eternal God, "so that all the Gentiles might come to the obedience," "that comes from faith"
(NOTE: Obedience is a direct result of Faith) Happy now?

 

[Toknow]

FYI:
Turkey/ Anatolia is not really considered Europe.

LOL
I know that!
I live in Europe.

My NASB has that title, (First Convert In Europe) and the NASB on bible gateway.
It was under Roman rule,,,but it still was not Europe.

Good catch !

 

[Toknow]

But not everyone hears the word, even though they’re there physically. Think back in school, when you were sitting in a boring class, you missed half of what the teacher was lecturing on, because your mind or heart wasn’t into hearing it.

“So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭10‬:‭17‬ ‭NKJV‬‬

Not only that
BUT
Not even everyone that actually HEARS the word will be saved.

However, faith does come by hearing the word...IF it is accepted.

The other member makes is sound as if just hearing the word will save someone.
Frankly, I don't understand what he's saying and he wasn't willing to explain properly.

 

[studier]

ut not everyone hears the word, even though they’re there physically. Think back in school, when you were sitting in a boring class, you missed half of what the teacher was lecturing on, because your mind or heart wasn’t into hearing it.

This is part of why Jesus in John6 commands unbelievers to work for the [spiritual] food that lasts into eternal life that He will give them John6:27.

Later in John6:44-47 Jesus explains this by saying the Father is drawing men by teaching and all who hear & learn the believe will come to Him.

It takes more than being in room hearing but not hearing to learn and believe the lasting spiritual food He gives/teaches.

It also takes some work to travel around on foot and by boats to follow Him to get this food.

This is the work God requires so they believe and it's not 'works' He owes anyone for.

 

[studier]

Rom 1:5 "Through him we received grace" & apostleship "to call all the Gentiles to the obedience" "that comes from faith" for his name’s sake
(NOTE: Obedience flows from Faith)

Rom 16:26 Now revealed & made known through the prophetic writings by the command of the eternal God, "so that all the Gentiles might come to the obedience," "that comes from faith"
(NOTE: Obedience is a direct result of Faith) Happy now?

Wrong translation as Paul shows in Rom10:16. Obedience that is Faith is how Paul sees it. Just a different genitive meaning. Ambiguous enough that we might discuss both in a sense, but I don't think that will make you happy.

 

[studier]

Rom 1:5 "Through him we received grace" & apostleship "to call all the Gentiles to the obedience" "that comes from faith" for his name’s sake
(NOTE: Obedience flows from Faith)

Rom 16:26 Now revealed & made known through the prophetic writings by the command of the eternal God, "so that all the Gentiles might come to the obedience," "that comes from faith"
(NOTE: Obedience is a direct result of Faith) Happy now?

Wrong translation as Paul shows in Rom10:16. Obedience that is Faith is how Paul sees it. Just a different genitive meaning. Ambiguous enough that we might discuss both in a sense, but I don't think that will make you happy.

Some notes from the NET Bible Translators re: "obedience [of] faith" - they're discussing the different ways the ["of"] can be translated - their is no word "of" in the Greek here - it's a catch-all translation of the specific grammar/wording:

NET Notes (Rom 1:5)

12 tn Grk "through whom."
13 tn Some interpreters understand the phrase "grace and apostleship" as a hendiadys, translating "grace [i.e., gift] of apostleship." The pronoun "our" is supplied in the translation to clarify the sense of the statement.
14 tn Grk "and apostleship for obedience."
15 tn The phrase ὒπακοὴν πίστεως has been variously understood as (1) an objective genitive (a reference to the Christian faith, "obedience to [the] faith"); (2) a subjective genitive ("the obedience faith produces [or requires]"); (3) an attributive genitive ("believing obedience"); or (4) as a genitive of apposition ("obedience, [namely] faith") in which "faith" further defines "obedience." These options are discussed by C. E. B. Cranfield, Romans (ICC), 1:66. Others take the phrase as deliberately ambiguous; see D. B. Garlington, "The Obedience of Faith in the Letter to the Romans: Part I: The Meaning of ὒπακοὴ πίστεως (Rom 1:5; 16:26)," WTJ 52 (1990): 201-24.

 

[studier]

I failed to understand how the verses follow the same pattern, have corresponding parts or act as a comparison point-for-point.

If you are saying that obedience logically follows from belief, then I wholeheartedly agree. Obedience is the necessary consequence of genuine belief, given what belief is and what it entails. Not that obedience causes belief, and not that belief and obedience are identical, but that belief—if real—carries obedience within it as its natural outflow.

I may not be clear, but I agree with your overall point. Linguistic parallelism might be absent from the the text (and I could be wrong about that) but Paul is making a strong connection between unbelief and disobedience.

The parallelism is simply in the two words being used interchangeably. They are obviously different words, but linked so tightly as to being inseparable. There is too much Scripture showing this to make it otherwise.

It is thus not an issue of one being produced by the other. If we get caught up in this we're just taking a position Scripture doesn't provide.

One thing you might consider is how all of this is mental/spiritual before it is outworking. Once we start attaching obedience to outward

I agree with you. Paul isn't saying that faith results from hearing the word of God.

Romans 10:16-17

He describes how God sent Isaiah to preach the good news and Isaiah found that his kinsmen didn't believe his report. This seems parallel to Jesus' and Paul's experience who preached the good news to Israel and they didn't believe either of them.

In our passage, Paul uses the term "hearing" to mean two different ideas. In Romans 10, Paul uses the word “hearing” in a way that carries two related nuances. On the one hand, a hearing is an official gathering—a formal assembly convened to receive a message or proclamation. On the other hand, within that gathering the people “hear a report,” meaning they receive the announced word that is being proclaimed. Paul weaves these senses together so that “hearing” refers both to the event in which the message is delivered and to the actual reception of the report itself.

To make this clear, I will paraphrase verse 17, "Just as one ought to believe a prophet such as Isaiah after he gives his report, one ought to believe Paul after he gives his report about Jesus Christ.

Then one has to ask you why you bypass that Paul parallels believe and obey in Rom10:16. In fact, 10:16a is explained by 10:16b - so Paul says "not all [men] obeyed the Gospel" which he backs up with Isaiah "Lord, who believed our report/news/thing heard?" For Paul believing and obeying the News/Gospel is the same thing.

Rom10:17 then summarizes: As a result of what's just been said/consequently, the faith [results] from news/a report/a thing heard, and the news/report/thing heard through a spoken word/message of/from God (variant is Christ, so could be 'about Christ).

The faith/belief from the spoken and heard news/message is believing/obeying the news/the Gospel.

 

[Cameron143]

You think your theology has not affected what you're saying and did not affect your logic, but it has and it did and it is still doing so.

Some of us like @JayWalker and I answered your question earlier by identifying the transition point.

Speaking for myself, I don't need or accept your obvious theology that God needs to make an unbeliever a believer before he can believe. In fact, I think it's absurd theology.

I'm all done with this for the time being.

No need to get belligerent.

BTW...the terms of the new covenant between God the Father and God the Son being fulfilled guarantees the promises to all the benefactors of the covenant. God the Father is obligated to fulfill His portion of the covenant. According to Ezekiel 36:26-27, the Father obligated Himself to give new hearts and the Spirit to all whose names were written in the book of life before the foundation of the world. This is what history is about. And in doing so, God is fulfilling His purpose to fill the earth with the knowledge of the glory of God. Each time God draws near an individual to draw them to Himself and save them, He is closer to this end. To God be the glory. Great things He hath done.

Grace and peace.

 

[Toknow]

Agreed that there is overlap, but I'm thinking faithfulness is mostly developed by functioning in faith-obedience.

In this thinking, for example, Paul bookends Romans with his mission to bring the nations to faith-obedience (Rom1:5; Rom16:26) and he states how Christ accomplished through him for obedience of Gentiles in word and work (Rom15:18).

He interestingly as far as I've seen doesn't bring up faithfulness which he easily could have in light of this bookended faith-obedience.

When I think through the faith-obedience it logically seems to end up in faithfulness but I like to see the actual connections in the Text and am cautious when it's not used. It may well be connected via other writings. It's been quite a while since I looked at all of this.

Something could be so clear as to not need to be spelled out exactly.
Faith-obedience is faithfulness.

If I'm faithful to someone, it means I tend to obey them.
If I obey someone I trust, I'm being faithful to them.

I think like this and I find it helpful in understanding scripture.
I understand that you like to do a deep dive.

 

[Roger316]

The parallelism is simply in the two words being used interchangeably.

I don't see the two words being used interchangeably.

They are obviously different words, but linked so tightly as to being inseparable. There is too much Scripture showing this to make it otherwise.

It is thus not an issue of one being produced by the other. If we get caught up in this we're just taking a position Scripture doesn't provide.

I think it is, and I think this is Paul's point. The connection you see is between what we are like on the inside -- unbelief -- and what we are like on the outside -- disobedience. The second logically follows from the first.

One thing you might consider is how all of this is mental/spiritual before it is outworking. Once we start attaching obedience to outward

Right. I agree.

Then one has to ask you why you bypass that Paul parallels believe and obey in Rom10:16. In fact, 10:16a is explained by 10:16b - so Paul says "not all [men] obeyed the Gospel" which he backs up with Isaiah "Lord, who believed our report/news/thing heard?" For Paul believing and obeying the News/Gospel is the same thing.

Yes, I agree, but in chapter 10, Paul argues that faith was there in the beginning with Moses. So, obeying the gospel, in this context, is another way of saying, believing the gospel from the heart.

The faith/belief from the spoken and heard news/message is believing/obeying the news/the Gospel.

Yes, and it would be worth our time to revisit Isaiah to see what Paul sees. We might consider the names Isaiah gave to his children and why he found the names significant.

 

[Roger316]

In the case of Lydia specifically, the opening of her heart to heed is an individual fulfillment of Ezekiel 36:26-27. He opened her heart and this led her to heed. The promise of the new covenant is a new heart that causes one to walk in obedience.

Right, salvation by sanctification.

 

[Cameron143]

Right, salvation by sanctification.

No. Salvation by regeneration.

 

[Roger316]

Something could be so clear as to not need to be spelled out exactly.
Faith-obedience is faithfulness.

If I'm faithful to someone, it means I tend to obey them.
If I obey someone I trust, I'm being faithful to them.

I think like this and I find it helpful in understanding scripture.
I understand that you like to do a deep dive.

Faithfulness isn't about me being obedient to someone; faithfulness is about me keeping my word to someone -- doing what we promised. God is faithful and he doesn't obey anyone.

 

[studier]

Faithfulness isn't about me being obedient to someone; faithfulness is about me keeping my word to someone -- doing what we promised. God is faithful and he doesn't obey anyone.

We are not God and we do not command Him. He commands us.

When we believe/obey Him and willingly do what He wills in faith, we can be found to be faithful.

She can correct me, but I think I see @Toknow speaking about the overlap where all works that are based in faith/obedience as judged by God, are faithful acts. What I mentioned before is that being a faithful person is in consistency over time in faith/obedience.

Jesus is called faithful. In Heb2:17 there is experiential time in a past tense ongoing tense in order for Him to become a faithful High Priest. This speaks of a process lived before being deemed faithful.

Jesus learned obedience through what He suffered. He always did what He saw the Father do and said what He heard the Father say. In the end He said nevertheless Your will be done.

This is why I mentioned that though there is overlap with faith/obedience, I see faithfulness as being a more developed trait. In one sense it means trustworthy - someone and/or something whose trustworthiness is proven. For us that's doing what God says - For God it's God doing what He says.