Loss of salvation???

[FlyingDove]

You posted the NIV as proof of your position, not me. I just showed you that it is not firm on the position it too.

You also have a tendency to say things that are incorrect and when I counter you you go silent about them and move on without ever acknowledging they're not true.

As I just posted to you - you make too many off the wall assertions.

Actually, where are you getting your information? You haven't answered me about having any training in language and I can see you are relying on something(s) for your comments - maybe AI - maybe some systematic theology polemics.

It's really about time you disclose your source(s). There are way too many people writing things that are not true in order to support their erroneous systems. You seem to be drawing from such things. What you say above is once again not correct.

My argument doesn't stand or fall on who I've read or what tools I use. It stands or falls on the text. Paul uses 2 different nouns—hypakoē & pistis-in a genitive construction & elsewhere explicitly contrasts faith & works (Rom 4:5). You can question my sources all day, but that doesn't change the Greek or Paul's argument. If you want to engage the text, I'm here for that. If you just want to speculate about what I read, I'll let others decide what that says about the strength of your position. I already know the answer.

By the way, you claim I'm not correct, but you haven't actually corrected anything. You haven't shown from the text or the grammar that a genitive with two distinct nouns can mean definitional identity, or that Paul ever makes obedience & faith the same thing-other than, as usual, because you said so.

 

[FlyingDove]

The error begins somewhere. I work to find it rather than proceeding with garbage in > garbage out theology riddled with proof-texting.

My first career was working globally on room sized computer systems chasing data throughout them isolating that one small spot in a large system that was causing problems - inserting garbage into the stream so everything thereafter was garbage out.

You're correct, I shrink the battlefield to find that problem and find that very few can work at that level. I've worked with people who can. I can see you clearly and find your unwillingness to reveal your sources and actual training to be clearly strategic. You're not the source of what you're posting.

Now you have to resort to speaking to the audience. It's just another fallacious method to divert from dealing with the focal point of the error I see you committing. It's fascinating to me that people would even suggest we should not isolate a problem in order to fix it.

As I said, prove me wrong. Maybe you'll find that grammatical resource that makes me reconsider, but I've looked at a few already and they don't support you.

You admitted you shrink the battlefield (everyone following this see's that clearly), but you still haven't addressed any of the points that collapse your faith‑obedience fusion. You haven't shown from the text or the grammar that a genitive with 2 distinct nouns can mean definitional identity, or that Paul ever makes obedience & faith the same thing. Questioning my sources doesn't change the Greek or Paul's argument. If you want to engage the text, I'm here for that. Clearly you're not.

 

[Toknow]

You never replied to my post regarding this.
I posted Strongs for both words and asked you to explain the difference.
You never did.
Out now and cannot post more.

@FlyingDove

See post 10,500 re the two words in Hebr 3
You never responded.



Also, you never replied to re loss of salvation.....
please explain how the following are NOT about loss of salvation since they apparently seem to be stating
that it is indeed possible.




Romans 11:20-22
20 Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited *, but fear;
21 for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either.
22 Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God's kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off.



Colossians 1:20-23
21 And although you were formerly alienated and hostile in mind, engaged in evil deeds,
22 yet He has now reconciled you in His fleshly body through death, in order to present you before Him holy and blameless and beyond reproach -
23 if indeed you continue in the faith firmly established and steadfast, and not moved away from the hope of the gospel that you have heard, which was proclaimed in all creation under heaven, and of which I, Paul, was made a minister.




I have no problem responding to every comment you make...
why don't you do the same??

 

[Toknow]

My argument doesn't stand or fall on who I've read or what tools I use. It stands or falls on the text. Paul uses 2 different nouns—hypakoē & pistis-in a genitive construction & elsewhere explicitly contrasts faith & works (Rom 4:5). You can question my sources all day, but that doesn't change the Greek or Paul's argument. If you want to engage the text, I'm here for that. If you just want to speculate about what I read, I'll let others decide what that says about the strength of your position. I already know the answer.

By the way, you claim I'm not correct, but you haven't actually corrected anything. You haven't shown from the text or the grammar that a genitive with two distinct nouns can mean definitional identity, or that Paul ever makes obedience & faith the same thing-other than, as usual, because you said so.

And YOU have not replied to important posts of mine.

Why accuse others of what you do?

Late now.
Will read your replies in the morning.
Thanks.

 

[Toknow]

You admitted you shrink the battlefield (everyone following this see's that clearly), but you still haven't addressed any of the points that collapse your faith‑obedience fusion. You haven't shown from the text or the grammar that a genitive with 2 distinct nouns can mean definitional identity, or that Paul ever makes obedience & faith the same thing. Questioning my sources doesn't change the Greek or Paul's argument. If you want to engage the text, I'm here for that. Clearly you're not.

Points are made.
You do not accept them.
It's tiring to repeat them over and over.

See my two posts to you.

 

[FlyingDove]

@FlyingDove

See post 10,500 re the two words in Hebr 3
You never responded.



Also, you never replied to re loss of salvation.....
please explain how the following are NOT about loss of salvation since they apparently seem to be stating
that it is indeed possible.




Romans 11:20-22
20 Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited *, but fear;
21 for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either.
22 Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God's kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off.



Colossians 1:20-23
21 And although you were formerly alienated and hostile in mind, engaged in evil deeds,
22 yet He has now reconciled you in His fleshly body through death, in order to present you before Him holy and blameless and beyond reproach -
23 if indeed you continue in the faith firmly established and steadfast, and not moved away from the hope of the gospel that you have heard, which was proclaimed in all creation under heaven, and of which I, Paul, was made a minister.




I have no problem responding to every comment you make...
why don't you do the same??

Posting Strong's numbers isn't an argument. Strong's is a glossary, not a grammar & it doesn't make apeitheia & apistia identical - it actually confirms they're 2 different nouns with 2 different meanings. That's the point you still haven't addressed. You also haven't shown from Heb 3:18-19 why the author uses 2 different summary terms if he meant definitional identity. Claiming I ""never replied"" to every verse you carpet bombed with doesn't correct anything. If you want to engage the text itself, I'm here for that. If you want to keep shifting to Rom 11 & Col 1 to avoid Heb 3, that says enough by itself.

 

[studier]

My argument doesn't stand or fall on who I've read or what tools I use. It stands or falls on the text. Paul uses 2 different nouns—hypakoē & pistis-in a genitive construction & elsewhere explicitly contrasts faith & works (Rom 4:5). You can question my sources all day, but that doesn't change the Greek or Paul's argument. If you want to engage the text, I'm here for that. If you just want to speculate about what I read, I'll let others decide what that says about the strength of your position. I already know the answer.

By the way, you claim I'm not correct, but you haven't actually corrected anything. You haven't shown from the text or the grammar that a genitive with two distinct nouns can mean definitional identity, or that Paul ever makes obedience & faith the same thing-other than, as usual, because you said so.

You admitted you shrink the battlefield (everyone following this see's that clearly), but you still haven't addressed any of the points that collapse your faith‑obedience fusion. You haven't shown from the text or the grammar that a genitive with 2 distinct nouns can mean definitional identity, or that Paul ever makes obedience & faith the same thing. Questioning my sources doesn't change the Greek or Paul's argument. If you want to engage the text, I'm here for that. Clearly you're not.

You shifted from Hebrews3 to Romans1. I’m willing to work in Rom1, but, yes, I’ll keep the arena small because that’s how you isolate the error before it gets buried under theology shaped by the same error.

Your claim about the two nouns is a grammatical claim, not a theological one, so before we go further please cite the grammars or resources that teach your alleged rule that two distinct nouns in a genitive construction cannot stand in an epexegetical/appositional relationship - the category grammars use when the second noun explains or identifies the first.

Once you provide the grammatical support, we can examine Rom 1:5 on that basis.

It's clear you're already hiding what you're drawing from and that you do not know the language as you're attempting to make others believe you do.

If you can’t or won’t cite a legitimate grammatical resource that teaches your alleged rule, then you’re simply making unsupported claims about Greek syntax that I have no reason to accept as authoritative. At that point it’s reasonable to treat it as you inserting the very ‘garbage’ that corrupts the system and produces error downstream.

 

[studier]

If you want to engage the text itself, I'm here for that

We'll see I guess.

 

[TruthDefender]

That was not the question I asked but since you brought it up can you answer me two questions.

1. Who wrote the handwriting of ordinances that were contrary and against us? Scripture and verse please.
2, Where is 613 written in our Bibles. God gave a Biblical number on His laws and that wasn't it.


And while we are at it

Can you tell me what "everyone" means and what "man" means?

If one allows the Bible to interpret the Bible, our conclusions would be a lot different. Why we are told plainly not to lean on our own understanding Pro3:5-6 and not to add words to the LORD Pro30:5-6

Yes, they would; if everyone understood His word. And yes, we’re not to lean on our own understanding. Read Leviticus.

God speaks:

-The handwriting of ordinances are from God through Moses.

“These are the statutes and judgments and laws which the Lord made between Himself and the children of Israel on Mount Sinai by the hand of Moses.”
‭‭Leviticus‬ ‭26‬:‭46‬ ‭NKJV‬‬

“having wiped out the handwriting of requirements that was against us, which was contrary to us. And He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross.”
‭‭Colossians‬ ‭2‬:‭14‬ ‭NKJV‬‬

“Therefore, if you died with Christ from the basic principles of the world, why, as though living in the world, do you subject yourselves to regulations— “Do not touch, do not taste, do not handle,” which all concern things which perish with the using—according to the commandments and doctrines of men? These things indeed have an appearance of wisdom in self-imposed religion, false humility, and neglect of the body, but are of no value against the indulgence of the flesh.”
‭‭Colossians‬ ‭2‬:‭20‬-‭23‬ ‭NKJV‬‬

“For He Himself is our peace, who has made both one, and has broken down the middle wall of separation, having abolished in His flesh the enmity, that is, the law of commandments contained in ordinances, so as to create in Himself one new man from the two, thus making peace, and that He might reconcile them both to God in one body through the cross, thereby putting to death the enmity. And He came and preached peace to you who were afar off and to those who were near. For through Him we both have access by one Spirit to the Father.”
‭‭Ephesians‬ ‭2‬:‭14‬-‭18‬ ‭NKJV‬‬

 

[SabbathBlessing]

Yes, they would; if everyone understood His word. And yes, we’re not to lean on our own understanding. Read Leviticus.

God speaks:

-The handwriting of ordinances are from God through Moses.

“These are the statutes and judgments and laws which the Lord made between Himself and the children of Israel on Mount Sinai by the hand of Moses.”
‭‭Leviticus‬ ‭26‬:‭46‬ ‭NKJV‬‬

“having wiped out the handwriting of requirements that was against us, which was contrary to us. And He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross.”
‭‭Colossians‬ ‭2‬:‭14‬ ‭NKJV‬‬

“Therefore, if you died with Christ from the basic principles of the world, why, as though living in the world, do you subject yourselves to regulations— “Do not touch, do not taste, do not handle,” which all concern things which perish with the using—according to the commandments and doctrines of men? These things indeed have an appearance of wisdom in self-imposed religion, false humility, and neglect of the body, but are of no value against the indulgence of the flesh.”
‭‭Colossians‬ ‭2‬:‭20‬-‭23‬ ‭NKJV‬‬

“For He Himself is our peace, who has made both one, and has broken down the middle wall of separation, having abolished in His flesh the enmity, that is, the law of commandments contained in ordinances, so as to create in Himself one new man from the two, thus making peace, and that He might reconcile them both to God in one body through the cross, thereby putting to death the enmity. And He came and preached peace to you who were afar off and to those who were near. For through Him we both have access by one Spirit to the Father.”
‭‭Ephesians‬ ‭2‬:‭14‬-‭18‬ ‭NKJV‬‬

You didn't answer the question- who wrote the handwritten ordinances?

The statue, judgement and laws are not the ordinances

Neh9:13 You came down also on Mount Sinai,
And spoke with them from heaven,
And gave them just ordinances and true laws,
Good statutes and commandments.

So show me who wrote them that Paul is quoting from the OT.

Yes the handwriting of ordinances was given by God through Moses but did Moses write them or did God. Please show me from Scripture. The fact it was "hand" written should be our first clue. The law that God wrote was with His finger- which is the Holy Spirit Exo31:18. Where were these handwritten ordinances kept, inside the ark or beside (outside)?

 

[TruthDefender]

You didn't answer the question- who wrote the handwritten ordinances?

The statue, judgement and laws are not the ordinances

Neh9:13 You came down also on Mount Sinai,
And spoke with them from heaven,
And gave them just ordinances and true laws,
Good statutes and commandments.

So show me who wrote them that Paul is quoting from the OT.

Yes the handwriting of ordinances was given by God through Moses but did Moses write them or did God. Please show me from Scripture.

I did tell you! You’re refusing to read it. Do you not see the Scripture?

“These are the statutes and judgments and laws which the Lord made between Himself and the children of Israel on Mount Sinai by the hand of Moses.”
‭‭Leviticus‬ ‭26‬:‭46‬ ‭NKJV‬‬

 

[FlyingDove]

We'll see I guess.

You say I shifted to Rom 1, but you never addressed Hebs 3 at all. You didn't touch the author's use of 2 different nouns - ἀπείθεια in Vs.18 & ἀπιστία in Vs.19. That's the one passage that collapses your faith‑obedience fusion, & everyone following can see you won't go near it despite 3 attempts.

There's no point moving to a 2nd text when the 1st one hasn't been dealt with. When you're ready to engage Heb 3 directly, I'm here.

 

[FlyingDove]

You shifted from Hebrews3 to Romans1. I’m willing to work in Rom1, but, yes, I’ll keep the arena small because that’s how you isolate the error before it gets buried under theology shaped by the same error.

You say I shifted to Rom 1, but you never addressed Hebs 3 at all. You didn't touch the author's use of 2 different nouns - ἀπείθεια in Vs.18 & ἀπιστία in Vs.19. That's the one passage that collapses your faith‑obedience fusion, & everyone following can see you won't go near it despite 3 attempts.

There's no point moving to a 2nd text when the 1st one hasn't been dealt with. When you're ready to engage Heb 3 directly, I'm here.

 

[SabbathBlessing]

I did tell you! You’re refusing to read it. Do you not see the Scripture?

“These are the statutes and judgments and laws which the Lord made between Himself and the children of Israel on Mount Sinai by the hand of Moses.”
‭‭Leviticus‬ ‭26‬:‭46‬ ‭NKJV‬‬

Sorry, I didn't see that but yes, the ordnances were written by the hand of Moses, all of the laws came from God so that is not in dispute but lets look at what the handwritten ordinances that are contrary and against us. You seem to be wanting to make this about the Ten Commandments as if love to God and man is against man, that would be weird.

2 Chron 33:8 and I will not again remove the foot of Israel from the land which I have appointed for your fathers—only if they are careful to do all that I have commanded them, according to the whole law and the statutes and the ordinances by the hand of Moses.”

The handwritten ordinances is what Moses wrote that were against man that were written in a book, besides the ark of God's covenant

Deut 31:24 So it was, when Moses had completed writing the words of this law in a book, when they were finished, 25 that Moses commanded the Levites, who bore the ark of the covenant of the LORD, saying: 26 “Take this Book of the Law, and put it beside the ark of the covenant of the LORD your God, that it may be there as a witness against you;

The context to Col2:14-17 Eph2:11-16 Heb10:1-15

Not the law of LOVE, the Ten Commandments that God Himself wrote and spoke and was placed inside the ark of the covenant written by the finger of God, the Spirit of the living God. Exo31:18

Sadly these two laws get dangerously mixed up.

 

[Toknow]

Posting Strong's numbers isn't an argument. Strong's is a glossary,

i know what strongs is.
i never use it except in rare cases.
This is one of them.
I asked you to explain the difference.
Seems like this should be easy for you instead you wasted time saying what does not reply to anything.

not a grammar & it doesn't make apeitheia & apistia identical - it actually confirms they're 2 different nouns with 2 different meanings.

explain the meanings.

That's the point you still haven't addressed. You also haven't shown from Heb 3:18-19 why the author uses 2 different summary terms if he meant definitional identity.

i asked you to show why he's using two different words.
what does each word mean?

Claiming I ""never replied"" to every verse you carpet bombed with doesn't correct anything. If you want to engage the text itself, I'm here for that. If you want to keep shifting to Rom 11 & Col 1 to avoid Heb 3, that says enough by itself.

Romans 11 and colossians 1 and many other teachings tell us that our salvation depends on continued faith and our not falling away.

When I left before I noticed that you did reply to rom and col.

Tomorrow.

 

[Roger316]

We arent talking legalism here. What you said is nonsense

Excuse me, I was answering a question from another member. If you would like to ask me a clarifying question, I would be happy to answer it for you.

 

[studier]

You say I shifted to Rom 1, but you never addressed Hebs 3 at all. You didn't touch the author's use of 2 different nouns - ἀπείθεια in Vs.18 & ἀπιστία in Vs.19. That's the one passage that collapses your faith‑obedience fusion, & everyone following can see you won't go near it despite 3 attempts.

There's no point moving to a 2nd text when the 1st one hasn't been dealt with. When you're ready to engage Heb 3 directly, I'm here.

Either one. Whatever you'll provide actual grammatical support for.

The issue in Heb3:12 that I recall leaving off at was your assertion that it speaks of a cause-effect that you're inserting wherever you go in Scripture re: faith and obedience. So, please explain how the infinitive clause there supports this. You'll have to provide some resource that you think substantiates what you say. I won't accept you as an authority.

I actually did explain Heb3:18-19 more than once. When I was challenged on the parallelism between the two words you ask about, I did answer, then I went through the context of Heb3:12-19 to show how it's a book-ended discussion on apistia used both in 3:12 and bookended in 3:19.

So, what's your question?

Or, do you need me to go back and link you to that last explanation?

Or do you think you have some kind of a challenge to what I said. If you do, then please explain yourself and if you're going to say something about the language, then be clear and if you are going to make an assertion about something grammatical, then provide a reference to back it up.

If you want to try to substantiate what you think by the typical systematic proof-texting routine, I'm not interested until I'm satisfied we have gotten through any words and language issues in the verses themselves.

 

[Musicmaster]

I understand and agree with your emphasis on the morality of the commandments. While all human beings are obligated to live according to the moral vision of the Law of Moses, not all of humanity is obligated to give expression to that moral vision in ritual ways.

Blessedly, living by the Spirit rather than by the letter, we are living fulfilment of the Law:

Romans 8:14
14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.

1 Corinthians 6:11
And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.

Romans 13:8, 10
8 Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law. ...
10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.

Galatians 5:14
For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

It's not about the letter. Unfortunately, those hung up on the letter have bound themselves to the curse of the Law.

MM

 

[TruthDefender]

Sorry, I didn't see that but yes, the ordnances were written by the hand of Moses, all of the laws came from God so that is not in dispute but lets look at what the handwritten ordinances that are contrary and against us. You seem to be wanting to make this about the Ten Commandments as if love to God and man is against man, that would be weird.

2 Chron 33:8 and I will not again remove the foot of Israel from the land which I have appointed for your fathers—only if they are careful to do all that I have commanded them, according to the whole law and the statutes and the ordinances by the hand of Moses.”

The handwritten ordinances is what Moses wrote that were against man that were written in a book, besides the ark of God's covenant

Deut 31:24 So it was, when Moses had completed writing the words of this law in a book, when they were finished, 25 that Moses commanded the Levites, who bore the ark of the covenant of the LORD, saying: 26 “Take this Book of the Law, and put it beside the ark of the covenant of the LORD your God, that it may be there as a witness against you;

The context to Col2:14-17 Eph2:11-16 Heb10:1-15

Not the law of LOVE, the Ten Commandments that God Himself wrote and spoke and was placed inside the ark of the covenant written by the finger of God, the Spirit of the living God. Exo31:18

Sadly these two laws get dangerously mixed up.

I agree to an extent. When I say the Law, I’m referring not to the commandments that God wrote on Mt Sinai, but pretty much everything in Leviticus, as I had stated many times before. Christ completed the Law and the prophets.

As Christians, we are only to follow the Law of Christ.

9 of the 10 commandments are still in effect. We as Christians were never told to honor Shabbat the way the Jews did, before Jesus died on the cross.

 

[SabbathBlessing]

I agree to an extent. When I say the Law, I’m referring not to the commandments that God wrote on Mt Sinai, but pretty much everything in Leviticus, as I had stated many times before. Christ completed the Law and the prophets.

As Christians, we are only to follow the Law of Christ.

9 of the 10 commandments are still in effect. We as Christians were never told to honor Shabbat the way the Jews did, before Jesus died on the cross.

There is no such thing as nine commandments, its an unbiblical number Deut4:13 Exo34:28 ironically forgetting the one commandment God said Remember that comes with the power of His Blessing Exo20:11 Isa56:2 and Sanctification Gen2:3 Eze20:12 because we can’t do this ourselves Isa66:17, we need God. No wonder why Jesus taught the Sabbath was made for mankindMark2:27, because its a sign between God and His people Eze20:20 and we trust in His sanctification Eze20:12 because He is our Creator Exo20:11 and re-Creator Eze20:12 the only God we are ever told to worship Rev14:7