Loss of salvation???

[Musicmaster]

OSAS is a doctrine that will lead many straight to hell due to disobedience and God will not tolerate disobedience.

Your works-based salvation beliefs are themselves false and unsupportable from scripture. Paul taught no such thing in relation to salvation, but rather about reward given that salvation is based solely upon faith rather than faith AND works. You would do well to learn the difference.

If our salvation were based upon perfect obedience, none would be saved. If you're going to then say it's about trying to be obedient to the best of one's ability, while at the same time unable to show to anyone where that line of division rests between saved and unsaved, you're teaching not only a non-existent teaching but also a blind doctrine with no understanding of the terrain of salvation.

This ethereal, clownish system of belief you parrot like a dog licking up its own vomit, its absolutely contrary to what Paul taught, which you apparently reject and have even stated so in the presence of anything he taught that might, in your own mind, contradict Christ...even though what Paul taught was and is directly from Christ. Your gross inconsistencies, like a multitude of rabbit holes in an open field, scented with hypotheticals you personally have never encountered, it's all rhetorical excrement.

Even Christ taught salvation without mention of its alleged loss:

Mark 16:16
He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

The difference is between belief and non-belief, not works-based retention that you create out of thin air.

MM

 

[HeIsHere]

OSAS is a false doctrine.

Ultimately, the person who experienced the spiritual rebirth (born from above) and who has conducted the thorough diligent

search, with an open heart and mind, of scripture........ and has relied upon the Spirit of Christ to lead them into all truth will find the

affirmation they are forever secure in their estate as "justified."

God does not fail .

There is no discussion here, no debate, no lobbying scripture back and forth, the words themselves are sufficient.
Saved is Saved.
Justified is justified.

Only false teacher want to cast doubt on the security of salvation gifted by Christ Jesus to those who have trusted Him for it.

 

[vassal]

I'm gonna take my stab on this hot topic of a discussion. I'm not an authority, this is just my understanding. Right or wrong, this is how I see it.

I don't think it's possible to lose your salvation, nor am I saying, that the elect have a license to sin. I think the key point is, that no one really knows that they are saved, until judgement day. If the elect were chosen, before the foundation of the world, how can it be that the someone will lose their salvation? You are either saved by grace, or not.

Does not God know, who HIS people are? Let me add some verses here..

John 10:28
28And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand.

Ephesians 1
3Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly realms. 4For He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world to be holy and blameless in His presence. In love 5He predestined us for adoption as His sons through Jesus Christ, according to the good pleasure of His will, 6to the praise of His glorious grace, which He has freely given us in the Beloved One.

Matthew 7
21Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?’

23Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you workers of lawlessness!’

Matthew 22
11But when the king came in to see the guests, he spotted a man who was not dressed in wedding clothes. 12‘Friend,’ he asked, ‘how did you get in here without wedding clothes?’

But the man was speechless.

13Then the king told the servants, ‘Tie him hand and foot, and throw him into the outer darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’

14For many are called, but few are chosen.”

Revelation 14
12Here is a call for the perseverance of the saints, who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus.

Ecclesiastes 12
13When all has been heard, the conclusion of the matter is this: Fear God and keep His commandments, because this is the whole duty of man. 14For God will bring every deed into judgment, along with every hidden thing, whether good or evil.

predestination? I don't think so, the verses you used are good, God does give us A choice ( see verses below) , this is in scripture, if it was predestination there would be no choice to make. God wants to see our hearts in play in this life, wants to see the choices we make, if we do his will. again many refuse obedience like it was a dirty word, Obedience in God is essential not complicated also. Jesus said clearly to obey the ten commandments to abide in him and to PERSEVERE, Not an easy path but it is the one that leads to eternal life. You have shown these verses but the answer you are seeking is Yes salvation can be Lost.

Below are come verses about CHOICE that GOD puts before us all;

Deuteronomy 30:19-20 (KJV)
“I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live: That thou mayest love the LORD thy God, and that thou mayest obey his voice, and that thou mayest cleave unto him: for he is thy life, and the length of thy days: that thou mayest dwell in the land which the LORD sware unto thy fathers, to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob, to give them."

Joshua 24:15 (KJV)
“And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.”

Isaiah 1:19–20 (KJV)
“If ye be willing and obedient, ye shall eat the good of the land:
But if ye refuse and rebel, ye shall be devoured with the sword: for the mouth of the LORD hath spoken it.”

Proverbs 1:29–31 (KJV)
“For that they hated knowledge, and did not choose the fear of the LORD:
They would none of my counsel: they despised all my reproof.
Therefore shall they eat of the fruit of their own way, and be filled with their own devices.”

Ezekiel 18:30–32 (KJV)
“Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, every one according to his ways, saith the Lord GOD. Repent, and turn yourselves from all your transgressions; so iniquity shall not be your ruin.
Cast away from you all your transgressions, whereby ye have transgressed; and make you a new heart and a new spirit: for why will ye die, O house of Israel?
For I have no pleasure in the death of him that dieth, saith the Lord GOD: wherefore turn yourselves, and live ye.”

Matthew 7:13–14 (KJV)
“Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.”

John 5:39–40 (KJV)
“Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.
And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.”

Revelation 22:17 (KJV)
“And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.”

Blessings

 

[Toknow]

Ultimately, the person who experienced the spiritual rebirth (born from above) and who has conducted the thorough diligent

search, with an open heart and mind, of scripture........ and has relied upon the Spirit of Christ to lead them into all truth will find the

affirmation they are forever secure in their estate as "justified."

God does not fail .

There is no discussion here, no debate, no lobbying scripture back and forth, the words themselves are sufficient.
Saved is Saved.
Justified is justified.

Only false teacher want to cast doubt on the security of salvation gifted by Christ Jesus to those who have trusted Him for it.

As ususal....
I don't see any scripture.

Know why HIH?
Because there is no scripture that will support a heretical doctrine invented by man.
OSAS
UNCONDITIONAL ETERNAL SALVATION
PERSEVERANCE OF THE SAINTS

 

[vassal]

Ultimately, the person who experienced the spiritual rebirth (born from above) and who has conducted the thorough diligent

search, with an open heart and mind, of scripture........ and has relied upon the Spirit of Christ to lead them into all truth will find the

affirmation they are forever secure in their estate as "justified."

God does not fail .

There is no discussion here, no debate, no lobbying scripture back and forth, the words themselves are sufficient.
Saved is Saved.
Justified is justified.

Only false teacher want to cast doubt on the security of salvation gifted by Christ Jesus to those who have trusted Him for it.

Salvation is not just beginning, but enduring

Matthew 24:13 (KJV)
“But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.”

If a man were already fully secure no matter what, there would be no need to endure to the end.

---

A believer can be cut off if he does not continue

John 15:6 (KJV)
“If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.”

This is spoken to those already in Him. If they do not remain, they are cast out.

---

Knowing the truth and turning back brings worse judgment

2 Peter 2:20–21 (KJV)
“For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.
For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.”

These people truly knew Christ, yet turned back.

---

The righteous can turn away and die

Ezekiel 18:24 (KJV)
“But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity… in his trespass… in them shall he die.”

---

We must keep His word, not just believe once

Matthew 7:21 (KJV)
“Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.”

---

If we deny Him, He will deny us

2 Timothy 2:12 (KJV)
“If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us:”

---

 

[HeIsHere]

Your works-based salvation beliefs are themselves false and unsupportable from scripture. Paul taught no such thing in relation to salvation, but rather about reward given that salvation is based solely upon faith rather than faith AND works. You would do well to learn the difference.

If our salvation were based upon perfect obedience, none would be saved. If you're going to then say it's about trying to be obedient to the best of one's ability, while at the same time unable to show to anyone where that line of division rests between saved and unsaved, you're teaching not only a non-existent teaching but also a blind doctrine with no understanding of the terrain of salvation.

This ethereal, clownish system of belief you parrot like a dog licking up its own vomit, its absolutely contrary to what Paul taught, which you apparently reject and have even stated so in the presence of anything he taught that might, in your own mind, contradict Christ...even though what Paul taught was and is directly from Christ. Your gross inconsistencies, like a multitude of rabbit holes in an open field, scented with hypotheticals you personally have never encountered, it's all rhetorical excrement.

Even Christ taught salvation without mention of its alleged loss:

Mark 16:16
He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

The difference is between belief and non-belief, not works-based retention that you create out of thin air.

MM

it is really very sad and revolting, it really denigrates the work of Christ Jesus.

Years ago, I could more wholeheartedly enter into the discussion, but now I see the depth of the falsity, and I prefer to not give it oxygen for the most part.

 

[HeIsHere]

As ususal....
I don't see any scripture.

Know why HIH?
Because there is no scripture that will support a heretical doctrine invented by man.
OSAS
UNCONDITIONAL ETERNAL SALVATION
PERSEVERANCE OF THE SAINTS

Justified is justified and scripture never states otherwise.
Do you understand that words have meaning.

 

[Toknow]

it is really very sad and revolting, it really denigrates the work of Christ Jesus.

Years ago, I could more wholeheartedly enter into the discussion, but now I see the depth of the falsity, and I prefer to not give it oxygen for the most part.

Didn't function well for you even years ago.

Read post 10,645 and let's see how you twist that scripture...
and twist it you must.


And...there's plenty more.

OTOH,,,you are unable to post just 2 verses that state that salvation cannot be lost.

 

[HeIsHere]

PERSEVERANCE OF THE SAINTS

I do not believe that nonsense of perseverance and the term preservation is not really full term either....... it does not capture the full picture.
It is a legal standing.
Justified.
Period.

 

[vassal]

Justified is justified and scripture never states otherwise.
Do you understand that words have meaning.

still no scripture....

 

[Toknow]

Justified is justified and scripture never states otherwise.
Do you understand that words have meaning.

You believe scripture is a funny topic?

Prove OSAS is correct doctrine.

 

[HeIsHere]

Didn't function well for you even years ago.

Read post 10,645 and let's see how you twist that scripture...
and twist it you must.


And...there's plenty more.

OTOH,,,you are unable to post just 2 verses that state that salvation cannot be lost.

I only need one word.

JUSTIFIED!

 

[HeIsHere]

still no scripture....

Justified.

 

[HeIsHere]

You believe scripture is a funny topic?

Prove OSAS is correct doctrine.

Justified.

 

[vassal]

Your works-based salvation beliefs are themselves false and unsupportable from scripture. Paul taught no such thing in relation to salvation, but rather about reward given that salvation is based solely upon faith rather than faith AND works. You would do well to learn the difference.

If our salvation were based upon perfect obedience, none would be saved. If you're going to then say it's about trying to be obedient to the best of one's ability, while at the same time unable to show to anyone where that line of division rests between saved and unsaved, you're teaching not only a non-existent teaching but also a blind doctrine with no understanding of the terrain of salvation.

This ethereal, clownish system of belief you parrot like a dog licking up its own vomit, its absolutely contrary to what Paul taught, which you apparently reject and have even stated so in the presence of anything he taught that might, in your own mind, contradict Christ...even though what Paul taught was and is directly from Christ. Your gross inconsistencies, like a multitude of rabbit holes in an open field, scented with hypotheticals you personally have never encountered, it's all rhetorical excrement.

Even Christ taught salvation without mention of its alleged loss:

Mark 16:16
He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

The difference is between belief and non-belief, not works-based retention that you create out of thin air.

MM

One clear word from Jesus is enough:

Matthew 7:21 (KJV)
“Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.”

Jesus Himself says that calling Him “Lord” and believing is not enough on its own. Entrance into the kingdom is for the one who does the will of the Father.

So the line is not “belief only,” but belief that lives and obeys. If belief alone guaranteed salvation no matter what, Jesus would not have said “not every one… shall enter.”

 

[HeIsHere]

One clear word from Jesus is enough:

Matthew 7:21 (KJV)
“Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.”

Jesus Himself says that calling Him “Lord” and believing is not enough on its own. Entrance into the kingdom is for the one who does the will of the Father.

So the line is not “belief only,” but belief that lives and obeys. If belief alone guaranteed salvation no matter what, Jesus would not have said “not every one… shall enter.”

Keep reading the message does not end there.

 

[Toknow]

I do not believe that nonsense of perseverance and the term preservation is not really correct either....... it does not capture the full picture.
It is a legal standing.
Justified.
Period.

And we're supposed to take YOUR word for what the NT teaches....

which is, BTW, in complete opposition to what JESUS taught.


Matthew 25:41-46
41Then He will say to those on His left, ‘Depart from Me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.

42For I was hungry and you gave Me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave Me nothing to drink, 43I was a stranger and you did not take Me in, I was naked and you did not clothe Me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after Me.’

44And they too will reply, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to You?’

45Then the King will answer, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for Me.’

46And they will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

 

[HeIsHere]

R
And we're supposed to take YOUR word for what the NT teaches....

which is, BTW, in complete opposition to what JESUS taught.


Matthew 25:41-46
41Then He will say to those on His left, ‘Depart from Me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.

42For I was hungry and you gave Me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave Me nothing to drink, 43I was a stranger and you did not take Me in, I was naked and you did not clothe Me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after Me.’

44And they too will reply, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to You?’

45Then the King will answer, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for Me.’

46And they will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

Keep reading.

 

[vassal]

I only need one word.

JUSTIFIED!

who will justify you on judgement day?, yourself...? we will be Judged by Jesus according to HIS words and His words Only, do you get it now?

 

[studier]

Agreed 100%
No matter which word is used:
APISTIA
APEITHEO

The outcome is the same.
No entry.


It seems to me that we should be concerned with the outcome...
and not which word is used, except for very specific reasons.

The other member is not attempting to post a specific reason but just keeps saying that he words are different.

To the lost person....the nuance in the word used will be of no assistance.

This is the problem.

It's called eisegesis.

It's starting with the conclusion and going back and changing the premises - the foundation.

It creates circular reasoning.